Well not sure if this topic has been covered much on here (i just joined) but ive heard several diffrent opinions on it....
As far as im concered i think buying a PPC on a plane to get a job is like using steroids.. your just cheating to get where you want to be! as far as im concerened by hiring people who have bought their own PPC you are straining the pool of qualified pilots and ending up with the lazy people who arent willing to work hard at making their way to the top. Your leaving the people out whom have had to work thier entire life to get something and accepting the people who have just decided to buy themselves a job as a pilot. Do we really want this for pilots? i dont think so...I mean i can understand a company wanting to hire a pilot that will save them money but do you really want those kind of people? not only that but they didnt get their PPC through your company so they have no commitment to your company because you havent done anything from them....I believe that if a company is willing to invest in training me and paying for my PPC instead of hiring someone who had their parents buy them a PPC i would remain more loyal to them and work as hard as i possibly could to repay them for helping me out! what goes around comes around...
Welcome to Avcanada and there is a mediocre search feature for the forums. This subject is regularly discussed here. The general concensus of those that respond is that everyone hates it. I don't think it is going to go away (just look at jetsgo.) I do find it interesting that many people presume that mommy and daddy are always the ones forking out the money for PPC's. I'm sure nobody at jetsgo worked hard and could therefore afford it (even if it came out of there savings,) or borrowed the money from the bank.
This topic definitely gets a lot of attention. I am still on the fence. For some reason, I differentiate among low timers buying the rating versus higher timers buying the rating. At some point, as you get older, married, kids, etc, there is a very strong urge to buy yourself some certainty, predictability, and a life. After spending 10 years kicking around on navajos, caravans, kingairs, etc, I can see how a lot of guys/gals want a life. those that can do it sometimes go to Europe, spend the 10-20K to convert to the JAA, while other s go and buy themselves a 747 type rating and fly overseas. It's not really any different from a business type been around for 10 years or so, goes and buys an executive MBA and the day they graduate their salary goes up by half or whatever. and you don't really even learn anything new in an executive MBA...it's a piece of paper to earn more money.
Low timers, and those in their first few years, however, it seems like cheating big time to buy that type rating. For the record, I personally have not ever paid for any type ratings, and nor do I plan to. European conversion, maybe....not going to buy a type rating, though.
wallypilot wrote:It's not really any different from a business type been around for 10 years or so, goes and buys an executive MBA and the day they graduate their salary goes up by half or whatever. and you don't really even learn anything new in an executive MBA...it's a piece of paper to earn more money.
I agree that the situations are similar...but...
Taking a MBA, you'll learn as much as a King Air pilot would learn in a 747 training course! The difference between them is quite clear.
A MBA gathers your previous knowledge and compacts it into a management weapon while a Type rating just teaches you more stuff about the aircraft and how to fly it.
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In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
Like wally, I am somewhat on the fence on the issue. As time goes on I think we will see more acceptance of the type rating issue; this is not necessarily a good thing.
I have been involved in aviation during the last 15+ years (from time that I began my training). During that time, it was known that to get on with Southwest Airlines one had to have a Boeing 737 Type Rating. At that point people wringed their hands about it, mostly because it created a whole industry in guys buying the rating so that they could apply for Southwest. While one person originally told me that the intent was that Southwest wanted people with 737 experience, the result was that guys fresh out of the military spent Uncle Sam's GI Bill money on an ATP and a 737 rating. This ended up becoming the standard and the debate, as far as I can see, has pretty much disappeared in the United States.
In my particular case, when I wanted to get my US ATP (unlike in Canada, this involves a written AND a flight test) I shopped around for training. One dubious company was offering the ATP for $995-- all who did it there did not recommend it. Most schools were pricing the ATP at around $2000 USD. Since I was flying a light turboprop in those days as Captain, I did not see much attraction in flying around in a Piper Apache, not learning anything new. A few schools back in those days were offering Citation type ratings for $3900 USD. In the USA, a Type Rating ride is an ATP ride, so for less than double the cost of flying a light piston twin (nothing new) and getting an ATP and learning nothing new, I would be able to get the ATP, get a type rating, fly my first jet and be introduced to a Part 25 aircraft and the performance considerations-- overall learn many exciting new things! I have absolutely no guilt in having done this. At no point did I have any illusions in walking out and getting a Citation job (although it did open opportunities years later). I just felt it was training money well spent. First and last type rating I ever bought (but it certainly didn't end up with a Canadian PPC-- since the training was done in the US).
Consider also guys who work as consultant pilots. These guys are freelancers (not permanently tied to one company or another) who fill seats all over the world. They fund their own training entirely-- interesting article about this in a recent issue of Professional Pilot magazine.
So IMHO, it isn't a black and white topic.
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I think most people buy a PPC because it is the logical choice. Instructors pay $8k for their rating while a PPC costs half that. With a PPC you're most likely getting Multi-IFR time, while instructing is mostly VFR/single-engine.
If confronted with the choice myself, I would get that PPC over the instructor rating in a heartbeat. Save a couple grand and get experience that is more valuable.
This problem with PPCs in Canada is marginal compared to what is going on elsewhere. Guys in Europe buy Type Ratings, and 'work for free' companies are numerous in the US.
I'm sure if everyone here had a choice, they would rather not buy the PPC. Until the prospects for low-timers improve, expect it to become an even greater trend. If you spend $30-40k on flight training, the money spent on a PPC on top of that becomes insignificant.
I know one guy who spent 20K on a JAA licence. Ended up going from KA100 to RS B747-400 in europe. Another guy spend 20K on a A320 type rating and got a job in asia somewhere making, from what I heard, about $110K US. Not a bad investment. A low time buying a PPC is just plain dumb. As is paying form one when approached by a company (ie. Pappalardo's flying circus out of YTZ)
Panama Jack wrote:Consider also guys who work as consultant pilots. These guys are freelancers (not permanently tied to one company or another) who fill seats all over the world. They fund their own training entirely-- interesting article about this in a recent issue of Professional Pilot magazine.
So IMHO, it isn't a black and white topic.
This is my situation. I work on contract. When I need a new type case my current one is being retired I will get one. I work for me. ONLY me. I take time off when I want , I go to work when I want. I take home more $$ than an Air Canada widebody Captain. That being said, I have flown SA226/KingAir/ PC12/ Navajo, ect... and was always given those ratings by an employer.
Perhaps a little off topic, the steriod analogy may have been well intentioned but not accurate. All the steriod users I knew in the 80's and 90's were outstanding athletes and put forth outstanding efforts in their sports. I wish steriods didn't exist in amateur and professional sports, and call the users what you will, but lazy could never be a valid description. For some I knew, the CFL would never have been a possibility without a lifetime of preparation, effort and sacrifice. That had to be one of the hardest campaigns of dedication a guy in his twnties could endure. And separate from the pay for PPC debate.
Thanks Bede for bringing that up. Yes, I don't really like the concept where a company makes it a condition for you to buy a PPC (from them) as a condition for employment. Don't like your cited model, nor the Jetsgo one. That's what bonds are for.
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i know i was exaggerating when I said an executive MBA would learn nothing new, and Yoyoma, your point is well taken, and I agree. It was to make a point.
So, I remain on the fence with respect to the higher time individuals buying ratings. I am wholeheartedly against the idea of a PPC becoming "standard" in commercial pilot training, though. That's where we are headed, no doubt. Europe is there already. The frozen ATPL program requires the pilot to have completed an MCC course, which is in effect a type course with Multi crew training involved. And that is legislated. I know the environments are different here and there. Don't know where I am going with this. I guess just the sad state of affairs for newcomers to our industry.
Yea i guess its true that its a bit better for a high timmer pilot to buy a type rating and get into somthing bigger..but i was talkin more about the low timmers doing it...i hear youll get black listed for doing it and i think thats a good thing... anyhow thanks for your opinions!
Noones gonna black list you for doing nothing, so long as you got the right hookups. As long as they guarantee you a job or time then its all good. Just don't buy one without a job guaranteed and go looking for work or telling companies you're willing to buy one, not everyone appreciates that. First build up a contact and start talking with them to find out what their company expects, good to know the owner. And kind of bring it up but don't mention you are wanting to fly for him or will buy a PPC. That way you know where you stand and you'll be safe. People of course wouldn't have to be buying PPCs if all the high time guys would get off of the small turbo prop jobs and finally move up. But some enjoy that lifestyle so we have to do what we have to do to get ourselves in the seat that we want. Good luck!
As for low time guys I know a Chinese-Canadian got a job on the A320/321 at Air Macau with only 300 hours. Hours are important but sometimes if your lucky, at the right place at the right time, you can land an awesome job for yourself.
Here's a question for all those who think PPC buying pilots are the devil and should be blacklisted.
How do you feel about brand new commercial pilots buying an instructor rating? Are these guys scum bags? Is the flying school ghetto because they wont pay for the new employee's instructor rating?
It seems a bit of a double standard to me that in general PPC buying pilots (and the associated companies) are looked down upon, whereas flying schools and guys buying instructor ratings are typically accepted. I find these two situations very similar.
My opinion.. well, buying PPC's obviously isn't good for pilots, but I can understand in some cases why people do it. So I guess I'm also on the fence. I'm hoping to get my way without buying one.
I agree, buying an instructor rating is like buying a PPC. You pay the flight school to traine you and then they hire you on. So you're buying your first....errr...
well you know what I mean.
Utva wrote:Instructors pay $8k for their rating while a PPC costs half that. With a PPC you're most likely getting Multi-IFR time, while instructing is mostly VFR/single-engine.
If confronted with the choice myself, I would get that PPC over the instructor rating in a heartbeat. Save a couple grand and get experience that is more valuable.
Are you kidding me ?
If you get an instructor rating, sure it's single VFR, but you also get a hell of alot more experience. If you think you know everything about flying after a CPL your sadly mistaken. I've learned more in the past 6 months teaching, than I learned in the four years it took to get here. One thing about aviation... your always learning....or atleast should be.
If you think 220 hours of flight time with a PPC on a Ho' makes you a better pilot than a guy thats been flying single pilot VFR and the odd mutli and IFR student your a little left of center. My instructor rating allows me to practice and teach IFR and stay current, while again...constantly learning and producing better students....you having bought your PPC have bare minimums, have learned the procedures and speeds for a new A/C.... but that's it.
Basically, I try to look at it this way, who would you rather have flying your A/C ? Don't get me wrong, I'm all about getting ahead, but a popuar saying sums it up. " Power without wisdom will be the destruction of men "
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Sometimes I think it's a shame when I get feelin' better when I'm feelin no pain.
You are comparing apples to oranges...you are saying that a 220 hour pilot with a ho PPC is less experienced than a 1000 hour instructor...well duh!
How about comparing oranges to oranges. I think a 220 hour pilot with a ho PPC is just as or more qualified then a 220 hour pilot with a fresh instructor rating.
I started an instructor rating and I can tell you that I did not learn any more doing that then I do on a regular day when I am brushing up on avionics books or the random turbo-prop AFM that I happen to be able to get my hands on. Saying that you learned a lot from your instructor rating just proves that you sucked as an initial student pilot IMHO.
Anyway, I would take a 1000 hour ho pilot that knew his basics from the start over a 1000 instructor who had to learn them along the way any day.
Its really about opportunity. You're telling me if someone asked you to fly their navajo you would rather instruct?!? You can always instruct later but that opportunity might not be there later to fly the Ho, and as HavaJava said you're comparing apples to oranges.
You are comparing apples to oranges...you are saying that a 220 hour pilot with a ho PPC is less experienced than a 1000 hour instructor...well duh!
I started an instructor rating and I can tell you that I did not learn any more doing that then I do on a regular day when I am brushing up on avionics books or the random turbo-prop AFM that I happen to be able to get my hands on. Saying that you learned a lot from your instructor rating just proves that you sucked as an initial student pilot IMHO.
Anyway, I would take a 1000 hour ho pilot that knew his basics from the start over a 1000 instructor who had to learn them along the way any day.
First of all your assuming someone is going to hire you with 220 hours and just assisted in screwing over the industry. It's not apples and oranges if you take into account the fact the instructor will spend the year working and flying while the other guy with a PPC will sit on the ramp for two years finally earning his way.
Second, if in fact I did suck initially IYHO, that would have been the fault of my instructor and a flight test examiner. In actuallity I was pretty damn sharp right off the bat, I was just lucky enough to have a class 1 that is very exceptional do my Class 4 rating. If you didn't learn anything you either didn't care to, or you already knew everything there is to flying from the start.
Biz: Hells ya I would have jumped on that from the start, but not if they told me I had to buy my training man .... already been there.
p.s co-joe : Ray's guitars broken, tell us a story about the last time you were in Oregon
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Sometimes I think it's a shame when I get feelin' better when I'm feelin no pain.
LostinRotation wrote:
Biz: Hells ya I would have jumped on that from the start, but not if they told me I had to buy my training man .... already been there.
Everyone buys training! PPL, CPL, MIFR, then some choose to get a 4K PPC and some a 8K instructor rating (others choose to do something else). Unless of course, you did your instructor rating for free. If some school was delighted with you from the start, they should have paid for your instructor rating, and loved having you work there.
Just because it is more acceptable to buy an instructor rating rather than a PPC, does not mean that it is the more logical choice in every situation.
I have a theory that I think could revolutionize and revitalize the Canadian aviation industry. It may sound harsh...and maybe it is, but it would ensure better trained pilots, better paying jobs at all levels, and more respect.
So here it is...with one wave of his magic wand, the minister changes the minimum requirements for an instructor rating so the candidate has to hold an ATPL...simple as that.
Now you may say that this is a crazy, stupid idea...and quite possibly it is, but follow along with me here.
As soon as this is done, flight schools will begin to lose their low-time instructor base as their 200 hour wonder instructors gradually move on. To fill the gap, they will be forced to hire experienced ATPL level pilots. This will also force flight schools to pay their instructors much better than they pay now.
This will mean the end of the road for many flight schools who pay below poverty line and treat their employees poorly. However, reputable companies will survive, albeit with significantly increased rental rates.
This will lead to a number of things. First, students will receive much better training from experienced and well paid instructors. This is good all around. The other thing that will happen is fewer people will be able to afford to train (and that is the harsh part). However, it will weed out the people that have no drive to work hard and achieve their dreams. Perhaps people showing true financial deficiencies can be eligible for bursaries/grants...and of course there is always the military.
So now we have a smaller but much better trained 200 hour pilot group. There will be a much smaller supply of pilots for charter companies to choose from so these pilots will get their first jobs in the right seat where they can start to gain some real experience. Finally when these pilots have gained some good real-world experience they will be eligible for one of those cooshy, well-paid instructor jobs.
So to sum up, by increasing the minimum requirements for instructors to the ATPL we have:
-better paid and more experienced instructors,
-better trained pilots,
-smaller number of commercial pilots in Canada (more demand/less supply)
-better pay for pilots at all levels.
-first jobs in the right seat, learning from an experienced captain.
yea your right about paying the instructors more because then they dont want to get their hours and leave...some flight schools already do that like the one i am currently attending....its a little bit more expensive (and i dont exactly have unlimited funds) but the instructors seem to be motivated to put the extra effort in to produce good pilots and not just grad massive amounts of people and flood the industry. Infact the instructors at my school have either worked in the industry and have an ATPL and have flown several types of aircraft like learjets, beech 1900's, king air's, PC-12, aerostar's, turbo commanders, etc or they are working part time on an airline and part time as an instructor...three of the four instructors i have flown with since my private to where i am now have been working for a commuter company flying 1900's and king air 200's so i feel im getting very good training....only prob is that the other schools are flooding the market making it hard for airlines to distiguish the diffrence bettween grads from diffrent schools..but im hoping that the reputation of my school from previous graduates has spread and shown that it produces top quality pilots so that i will be able to make a break in the industry...if not off the the military for me
your just cheating to get where you want to be! as far as im concerened by hiring people who have bought their own PPC you are straining the pool of qualified pilots and ending up with the lazy people who arent willing to work hard at making their way to the top. Your leaving the people out whom have had to work thier entire life to get something and accepting the people who have just decided to buy themselves a job as a pilot. Do we really want this for pilots? i dont think so...I mean i can understand a company wanting to hire a pilot that will save them money but do you really want those kind of people? not only that but they didnt get their PPC through your company so they have no commitment to your company because you havent done anything from them....I believe that if a company is willing to invest in training me and paying for my PPC instead of hiring someone who had their parents buy them a PPC i would remain more loyal to them and work as hard as i possibly could to repay them for helping me out! what goes around comes around... 
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
