Would you work at Encore?

[Krimson]

Nothing worse than being forced to take an interview...at a regional....to fly a new Q400....with GUARANTEED Flowthrough to WJ. What's wrong with this industry....

You're interviewing for a mainline position, you shouldn't be "forced" into another job interview. Assuming you are qualified enough to get a position on the 737, if you get switched to encore you now have to wait at least 3 years to get back that position which you were already qualified for.

[xTally]

Sadly, I know of one confirmed case of someone (a friend of mine) applying only to WestJet mainline, doing a walkthrough and then being railroaded into an Encore interview. So unfortunately it does happen but hopefully not too often.

Just take a step back and think about what WJ needs right now. A company that is in the midst of taking a huge risk and launching a new low cost carrier; obviously they need alot more people at Encore right now to launch the WJ Encore operation then at the mainline operation right now. They want and need good people to launch WJ Encore, and they likely receive most of their applications for the mainline. So put yourself in their shoes, it makes perfect sense that during a mainline interview they would bring up Encore to gauge your interest in Encore should you not be hired at the mainline (for whatever reason). I would also imagine that a few years down the road once both camps are fully staffed, this kind of "cross interviewing" will not occur nearly as often if at all.

I agree that it makes a lot of sense for WestJet to do this. However there is definitely a reason why they "need" people: the pay and working conditions are not attractive enough to get the "good people" they desire. Therefore they must resort to this sort of tactic to get "good people".

To "cross interview" is fine so long as the candidate agrees. However, in the case of my friend who had not applied to Encore as was completely qualified to work at Mainline, this was a bit of a slap in the face.

[xTally]

.....and then being railroaded into an Encore interview.

That's one of the funniest statements I've read....railroaded.....oh the humanity. Nothing worse than being forced to take an interview...at a regional....to fly a new Q400....with GUARANTEED Flowthrough to WJ. What's wrong with this industry....

It definitely is not funny if the candidate did not apply to Encore and was completely qualified to work at Mainline. My friend is already working at a stable equivalent job so the benefits to going to Encore are not so great as you might think. Also remember that a lot of things have yet to be decided at Encore including flowthrough and working conditions, simply because its too early in the game to have these things set in stone. Given the current state of the industry (downwards trend) can you fault people for being wary of making a sideways move to a company that is filled with more uncertainty than normal?

I certainly hope Encore will eventually pay well and be an industry standard for regional airlines..
But remember.... just because it says "WestJet" on the side of the plane doesn't mean they can't cheap out like all the other new airlines/regionals
Also...eventually it matters less and less what you are flying, and more and more how you are treated and paid where you work.

[wjhr]

You are never “railroaded” into the interview. All the interviews are done by the same panel (one or two pilots and the HR rep). Currently, with over 800 apps on encore and 1000 for wj, the qualifications are very similar that is coming in the door. Direct captains for Encore and 4 to 5000 thousand hr people for wj.
You might be asked, but it is very clear on what you are interviewing for.
If you don’t want to be interviewed for encore, then don’t apply on the encore site. Resumes for encore selection come from the encore application.
If by chance the candidate has an application in on both (wj and encore), it’s the luck of the draw which one you will get interviewed for. Interviews are running twice a week right now and the May WJ class is full. The pool is building fast and the resumes are plentiful.
Entitled, need not apply. If you are a type of person that wants to build a new airline, then great. You belong here. There is lots to do including training, line indoc, working with the wjpa in building the first agreement, pilot hiring rep, pilot assistance rep, pilot care etc.
I guess a sideways move is all how you look at it.

[Tiny Voices]

You say your friend was here for a walk through and was railroaded into an Encore interview. A walk through is not a formal interview, and an interview is not the same thing as an informal sit down with DaveP or one of the other big wigs during a walk through. Anyone I've taken for a walk through recently was told of the opportunities available at both WJ and Encore, and asked where they think they fit best, or in which they're interested. So, was your friend there to take part in a formal interview, or was he there for the walk through to tour the campus, maybe meet and greet some Flight OPS leadership, and get a feel of whether WJ was a good fit for him and vice versa?

[Wacko]

Just take a step back and think about what WJ needs right now. A company that is in the midst of taking a huge risk and launching a new low cost carrier; obviously they need alot more people at Encore right now to launch the WJ Encore operation then at the mainline operation right now. They want and need good people to launch WJ Encore, and they likely receive most of their applications for the mainline. So put yourself in their shoes, it makes perfect sense that during a mainline interview they would bring up Encore to gauge your interest in Encore should you not be hired at the mainline (for whatever reason). I would also imagine that a few years down the road once both camps are fully staffed, this kind of "cross interviewing" will not occur nearly as often if at all.

Soo.... by that logic.. in a year or two you might go in for a pilot position (FO) job and be asked if you would consider being a groomer and/or janitor

[dhc#]

So as of the Encore start up tomorrow, how many pilots have been hired so far at Encore, what has been the experience level and past types flown, and how many more will be hired this and next year ?????????????????

Thanks for replies

[Darkhorse]

[DHC7DVR]

I was offered a post of DE Captain on the Q400, but after a couple of days desperately trying to get math to add up, I came to the conclusion that sadly, I just couldn't afford it.

I have to say that I'm very disappointed. I would love to have flown the Q400, I love the Dash product, and the 400 is a sweet ride, but I guess that it's just not meant to be.

But before we all go off on a rant, and cry about "the race to the bottom", and the "penny pinching management", remember, that it's not their fault. They are in business to make money.

You can't blame the suits in the boardroom for the state of salaries in aviation. Let's face it, would you pay $10.00 for a beer, when you can go next door and get one for $3.00? lest we forget, the only person that we have to blame is ourselves.

The first sad fact is that there will always be someone out there who will do the job for less than you. And the second, is that if your not part of the solution, then I'm afraid your part of the problem.

Me? I'm going to count my blessings, be thankful for what I've got, shake my head and move on..

[monkey]

That's a tough call to make, I came to the same conclusion myself. There is no way I could raise a family on that wage. I find it rather insulting actually. Hopefully it won't effect your chances of trying to get on with mainline. What kind of experience do you have?

On a side note if your still looking for a change in scenery sunwing is hiring 40 this winter and pays a good wage.

[Bede]

DHC7DVR,

Good, well thought out post. I suspect that a lot of people are in the same boat as you. I crunched the numbers myself and decided to stay on the 737 when we all were offered a spot on the Q400. It's kind of sad because I really wanted to be part of something new and in the end, it came down to the almighty dollar. I even would have considered going for a small pay cut, but I simply was not willing to swallow a 40% pay cut.

WRT to race to the bottom: our problem in aviation is not that someone else will do it for less. After all, I'd take the WJ CEO job for half of what our CEO makes:) The difference is our current CEO brings far more value to our organization than I would and that is why he is compensated so well. What ails our profession is that we, the well-compensated airline pilots, have a very difficult time differentiating ourselves from our lower paid peers. I cannot walk into a board room and show the CEO that I bring more value to the company than a less-experienced regional pilot. Lawyers, accountants, managers, etc. can all make a business case why they are more valuable than a lower-paid associate. We cannot.

Instead of constantly ranting about the "race-to-the-bottom" we as professional pilots need to discuss how we bring value to our employers to justify our existing compensation.

[anonymity]

have a very difficult time differentiating ourselves from our lower paid peers.

Insurance underwriters can differentiate between an experienced 705 pilot and oh, say a 3000 hour King Air Pilot who is put left seat of a 75 passenger complex aircraft because the pay wasn't enough for the aforementioned experienced 705 Pilot, so why can't we?
I'm ashamed to be a pilot, that you're able to attract any experienced pilots with those pitiful wages!

[meatball]

This is the math I did.

It is OPTIMISTIC! The first couple of months or maybe the whole first year you may be looking at monthly minimums.

This is using $68/hr.

Monthly Min Month Max Min YEAR MAX YEAR 12 days ESOP @ 10% Profit sharing MAX YR
70 HRS 90 HRS 840 HRS 1080 HRS OT/YR
$4,760.00 $6,120.00 $57,120.00 $73,440.00 + $5,508.00 + $7,344.00 + $5,000.00 = $91,292.00

anyways...

[DH772]

Monthly Min Month Max Min YEAR MAX YEAR 12 days ESOP @ 10% Profit sharing MAX YR
70 HRS 90 HRS 840 HRS 1080 HRS OT/YR
$4,760.00 $6,120.00 $57,120.00 $73,440.00 + $5,508.00 + $7,344.00 + $5,000.00 = $91,292.00

That makes no sense. Care to elaborate how your formula actually works. I can do the math all day long and not end up with 91k. Please do share what I'm missing.

[meatball]

I guess the way the formatting looks in preview doesn't really look the same in the postings however you should be able to work it out.

Glass Half FULL year:

$68/hr multiplied by 90 hrs equals $6120/month.
$6120 multiplied by 12 months equals $73440/year.
If ESOP equals 10% then employee will earn $7344.00 in employee match.
If employee works 1 day of OT average per month then employee will earn $5508 (assumption =(68*150%*4.5 min day)*12))
If WestJet continues to make a profit, profit sharing randomly guessed at $5000 per year.

Therefore, $73,440/year PLUS $7344.00 PLUS $5508 PLUS $5000 = $91,292 / year

Glass Half EMPTY year:

$68/hr multiplied by 70 hrs equals $4760/month.
$4760 multiplied by 12 months equals $57,120.00 /year.
If ESOP equals 10% then employee will earn $5712.00 in employee match.
If employee works 1 day of OT average per month then employee will earn $5508 (assumption =(68*150%*4.5 min day)*12))
If WestJet continues to make a profit, profit sharing randomly guessed at $5000 per year.

Therefore, $57,120.00 /year PLUS $5712.00 PLUS $5508 PLUS $5000 = $73,340.00 / year

My bet, once things are up and running you are looking at around $85K for year #1.

[7thirtyseven]

My guess was 88k yr one capt, but I was more generous on the PS and less on some other things.

Yr 1 at WJ many moons ago was officially 40k... Terrible!!! A slap in the face of all pilots and the so called profession!!! Prostitute!!!! Aswipe!!!! (what revenue canada ultimatly held me accountable for was 92k). Some can only see what dribbles into their account. Some can see the potential, the extras, the freedom and hope.

['97 Tercel]

So I don't get it...there's a lot of Encore-pay complaining but $88 grand year 1? It could be better, but its not THAT bad...

[DH772]

.

[FICU]

Therefore, $57,120.00 /year PLUS $5712.00 PLUS $5508 PLUS $5000 = $73,340.00 / year

Basically you just figured out what is probably the average base salary for non-Q Dash-8 Captains... what a deal!

Working 90 hours a month at a regional level will be burning these guys/gals out in no time and there will hardly be capacity for sanity let alone OT.

[flyer 1492]

Working 90 hours a month at a regional level will be burning these guys/gals out in no time and there will hardly be capacity for sanity let alone OT.

Exactly, also with the new F/DT coming in OT will be harder to do. In regards to the salaries, comparing Captains and First Officers wages is like looking at apples and oranges. Easy if you are making the BIG bucks, not so easy when you can't make ends meet.

[FICU]

I would like to know what level of experience will be in command of these shiny new planes and what level of experience will be in the right seat and am a little concerned.

[DHC7DVR]

I got the initial package with all the pay and conditions from WJ HR, I went to the interview, and had a couple of phone conversations with them afterwards. ESOP,OT, Bonuses etc were not even mentioned.

I would suggest caution when applying the benefits of WJ to WJE, the way I understand it, they are two separate enterties.

What their additions and benefits are going to be remains unknown, as they were not prepared to divulge them until I commenced ground school.

All this:

Monthly Min Month Max Min YEAR MAX YEAR 12 days ESOP @ 10% Profit sharing MAX YR
70 HRS 90 HRS 840 HRS 1080 HRS OT/YR
$4,760.00 $6,120.00 $57,120.00 $73,440.00 + $5,508.00 + $7,344.00 + $5,000.00 = $91,292.00

I'm afraid is pure assumption.

So unfortunately without anything else, written OR verbal, the only thing that I had to hang my hat on was what they told me; namely $68, 70 hrs, 57k

I could be wrong, (I HOPE I'm wrong), and am happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

[meatball]

All numbers are from the contract with the exception of profit sharing which will always be unknown.

btw ...ESOP at the Big Boy airline is 20%.

I guess we will see how it plays out.

[complexintentions]

DHC7DVR,

Good, well thought out post. I suspect that a lot of people are in the same boat as you. I crunched the numbers myself and decided to stay on the 737 when we all were offered a spot on the Q400. It's kind of sad because I really wanted to be part of something new and in the end, it came down to the almighty dollar. I even would have considered going for a small pay cut, but I simply was not willing to swallow a 40% pay cut.

WRT to race to the bottom: our problem in aviation is not that someone else will do it for less. After all, I'd take the WJ CEO job for half of what our CEO makes:) The difference is our current CEO brings far more value to our organization than I would and that is why he is compensated so well. What ails our profession is that we, the well-compensated airline pilots, have a very difficult time differentiating ourselves from our lower paid peers. I cannot walk into a board room and show the CEO that I bring more value to the company than a less-experienced regional pilot. Lawyers, accountants, managers, etc. can all make a business case why they are more valuable than a lower-paid associate. We cannot.

Instead of constantly ranting about the "race-to-the-bottom" we as professional pilots need to discuss how we bring value to our employers to justify our existing compensation.

I found this statement to be both true, and also somewhat interesting. It does seem to actually support the premise that perhaps the mainline WJ pilots should have worked harder to advocate for better wages at Encore. (Bolding in the quote is mine.)

If a 737 pilot cannot bring more value to the company than a less-experienced Dash 8 pilot, why should the company pay them (so much) more? I strongly suspect that this will be the question on the minds of WJ financial types going forward. Particularly as the mainline matures and more and more employees reach the upper end of the pay scale.

It's always about the costs.

Always.

[7thirtyseven]

Interesting..... All pilots in Canada should take the day off and we should take carefull note of which aircraft the CEO wants crewed first. This would be an experiment I would enjoy watching.