Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote: I didn't realize that the CanJet dry lease numbers were that high.
Yet I posted on this thread how many they had. For someone who often complains that I don't mention Canjet....

I posted this on Dec 11th
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Canjet has 119 Canadian pilots and hires 32 foreign pilots.
I posted this on Dec 20
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:The Sunwing fleet now stands at 28 aircraft. Canjet is at 12.
The very next day you posted this:
morningwood wrote:Also Gilles, maybe you could update us on the number of foreign pilots and aircraft that Canjet has brought in this year to operate for Air Transat?
How many Canadian pilots or wet lease aircraft were sent to operate in Europe this year by Canjet?
It can be hard to tell tone of voice in print and I'm not asking this to be a smartass or to rub mud in your face, but I am curious to know.
To which I replied that I had just posted it. Today you are surprised at the number. You criticize me just for the sake of it. You do not care about what is really said or argued. But that is your job. I understand.

To come back to the Canjet aircraft, it seems three of them maintained their foreign registrations under CAR 203 and do not figure on the Canadian Civil Aircraft register, but they are flying in Canada as dry-leases

F-GZHA, F-GZHB and OO-JAQ
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

The 2012 CanJet fleet stands at 12 aircraft on contract for Transat
5 core aircraft
4 Foreign Reg dry lease ( 2 XL Germany and 2 Transavia France )
2 C-Reg dry lease
1 wet lease to EnerJet

CanJet has 119 Canadian pilots and 32 foreign pilots on LMO while 60ish Transat pilots are on layoff
CanJet sent zero pilots to Europe in 2012 on any kind of reciprocal agreement.
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Last edited by morningwood on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
60N30W
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by 60N30W »

The 2012 CanJet fleet stands at 12 aircraft on contract for Transat
5 core aircraft
4 Foreign Reg dry lease ( 2 XL Germany and 2 Transavia France )
2 C-Reg dry lease
1 wet lease to EnerJet


Morningwood

Could you explain how Enerjet factors into this issue?

Regards

M.Jackson
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

It doesn't, really
I was merely posting information on the CanJet fleet. I didn't mean anything by it.
It's great news for the fine folks over at EnerJet.
Merry Christmas
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Takeoff OK »

I've just heard that apparently the foreign pilots working at Canjet are paying ALPA dues, and are therefore protected under ALPA Canada's constitution. Can anyone at Canjet verify this? If so, ALPA has some fucking explaining to do...

Do any of you Canjet guys have an opinion on this issue?
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by flyingmaverick »

any email address to send resume
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I don't know what happened but Canjet has one less aircraft, now down to 11.

C-GDGY which was leased from XL airways Germany, was returned on Dec 21 to Aviation Capital Group. Does it have anything to do with XL Airways Germany's financial problems, I have no idea. Anyone at Canjet care to to comment ?
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by CD »

Decision No. 494-A-2012
December 28, 2012

APPLICATION by Air Transat A.T. Inc. carrying on business as Air Transat, on behalf of itself and I.M.P. Group Limited carrying on business as, among others, CanJet Airlines, a Division of I.M.P. Group Limited, pursuant to section 60 of the Canada Transportation Act, S.C., 1996, c. 10, as amended, and section 8.2 of the Air Transportation Regulations, SOR/88-58, as amended.

File No.: M4210/I97-2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

APPLICATION

Air Transat A.T. Inc. carrying on business as Air Transat (Air Transat), on behalf of itself and I.M.P. Group Limited carrying on business as, among others, CanJet Airlines, a Division of I.M.P. Group Limited (CanJet), has applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) for an approval to permit CanJet to provide its non‑scheduled international service between Toronto, Ontario, Canada and St. Lucia, on December 30, 2012 and January 6, 2013, using an Airbus 310 aircraft and flight crew provided by Air Transat.

CanJet is licensed to operate a non‑scheduled international service, large aircraft, to transport traffic on a charter basis between Canada and any other country.

EXEMPTION REQUESTED

Air Transat has also requested an exemption from the application of subsection 8.2(2) of the Air Transportation Regulations (ATR), which requires the filing of an application for an approval at least 45 days before the first planned flight.

In Decision No. 426-A-2012 dated November 7, 2012, the Agency advised that the 45-day filing requirement will be strictly enforced for any new applications made after the date of issuance of that Decision, unless the applicant can demonstrate to the Agency that the requirements for a wet lease resulted from an unexpected or unforeseeable situation.

CanJet submits that it had planned to operate these flights using a Boeing 737-800 aircraft provided by XL Germany; however, XL Germany ceased operations in mid‑December. CanJet points out that it continues to look for a spare aircraft which it hopes to have by January 13, 2013.

The Agency has considered the submission and is satisfied that the application was filed late as a result of an unexpected or unforeseeable situation.

Therefore, the Agency finds that compliance with subsection 8.2(2) of the ATR is impractical in this case. Accordingly, the Agency, pursuant to paragraph 80(1)(c) of the Canada Transportation Act (CTA), exempts Air Transat from the application of subsection 8.2(2) of the ATR.

WET-LEASE APPLICATION

In Decision No. 426-A-2012, the Agency found that the issues raised in Sunwing Airlines Inc.’s application for a wet lease suggest that it would be both timely and beneficial to clarify the Agency’s approach to wet-lease applications. In that regard, the Agency advised that it will initiate a consultation to seek the views of the industry and other interested parties regarding the intent of the wet-lease approval requirements. This consultation would include information required by the Agency for its assessment of necessity under paragraph 8.2(3)(j) of the ATR.

The Agency also ruled that until it provides further clarification on wet-lease application requirements, the current approach will be maintained.

The Agency notes that CanJet provided an explanation for the wet-lease application; however, as set out in Decision No. 426-A-2012, the Agency will continue with its current approach until it has conducted a consultation. Following its consultation, the Agency will establish specific criteria that it will apply in the future.

The Agency is satisfied that the application meets the remaining requirements of section 8.2 of the ATR.

Accordingly, the Agency, pursuant to paragraph 60(1)(b) of the CTA and section 8.2 of the ATR, approves the use by CanJet of an Airbus 310 aircraft and flight crew provided by Air Transat, and the provision by Air Transat of such aircraft and flight crew to CanJet, to permit CanJet to provide its non-scheduled international service between Toronto and St. Lucia, on December 30, 2012 and January 6, 2013, using an Airbus 310 aircraft and flight crew provided by Air Transat.

This approval is subject to the following conditions:

* CanJet shall continue to hold the valid licence authority.
* Commercial control of the flights shall be maintained by CanJet. Air Transat shall maintain operational control of the flights and shall receive payment based on the rental of aircraft and crew and not on the basis of the volume of traffic carried or other revenue-sharing formula.
* CanJet and Air Transat shall continue to comply with the insurance requirements set out in subsections 8.2(4), 8.2(5) and 8.2(6) of the ATR.
* CanJet shall continue to comply with the public disclosure requirements set out in section 8.5 of the ATR.
* CanJet and Air Transat shall advise the Agency in advance of any changes to the information provided in support of the application.

FUTURE REQUESTS

Air Transat is reminded that in any future wet‑lease application, it must provide an explanation, as required by paragraph 8.2(3)(j) of the ATR. Further, the Agency will continue to enforce the requirement to file such applications 45 days before the first planned flight. In this regard, the exemption granted in this Decision should not be relied upon for any future requests for an exemption.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by AvJet »

Canadian pilots hopeful new job grant will keep airlines from having to hire foreigners

Pilots are now cautiously optimistic the new federal budget measures will resolve their long-running complaint that companies like Sunwing and Canjet shouldn't be allowed to hire European pilots for the busy sun destination season when Canadians are available and qualified — if only they could get routine training on the airline's particular brand of passenger jet.

Photo: John Mahoney/Montreal Gazette/Files
comment Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on redditShare on stumbleuponShare on linkedinShare on emailMore Sharing Services5 Tobi Cohen
Published: March 25, 2013, 11:54 am
Updated: 4 hours ago OTTAWA — A group of 30 laid-off pilots was left perplexed following last week’s federal budget, after the government introduced a job training grant and a commitment to Canadian workers over temporary foreign hires less than a month after rejecting a similar proposal from the pilots.

Pilots are now cautiously optimistic the budget measures will resolve their long-running complaint that companies like Sunwing and CanJet shouldn’t be allowed to hire European pilots for the busy sun destination season when Canadians are available and qualified — if only they could get routine training on the airline’s particular brand of passenger jet. Most airlines consider the training, called a “type-rating,” a cost of doing business, but the charters argue they’re prohibitive from a seasonal hiring perspective.

For a number of years, the airlines have successfully applied to the government through a couple of different programs for permission to hire foreign pilots, saying they’ve advertised for the position in Canada but could find few qualified candidates. Hundreds of foreign pilots have benefited from the deals as a result while Air Transat pilots lost their jobs.

The laid-off Air Transat pilots sent Human Resources and Skills Development Canada a detailed, 16-page proposal in November calling on the federal government to pay for their “type-rating” training. They said it would be more cost effective than having them all go on employment insurance.

While the training could run anywhere from $25,000-$30,000 per pilot, they pegged the EI cost to taxpayers at $580,000, noting that doesn’t take into account the tax revenues the government would make if they were working.

“The government will be able to save employment benefits. The government will collect more taxes through more Canadian taxpayers. The government will be able to demonstrate it is working in the best interests of Canadians,” they argued in the proposal obtained by Postmedia News.

“In the medium and long-term, the Canadian airline industry will remain competitive on the global stage without relying on foreign labour and last but not least, Canadian pilots will be able to work at home in Canada.”

The department finally responded in late February with a curt thanks but no thanks, noting the provinces get millions in federal dollars through labour market agreements to fund training and that the pilots should contact their provincial governments. The long-delayed response also appeared to be slapped together in haste. For example, a reference to the CAE, the civil aviation training centre in Montreal that offers type-rating courses, is mistakenly identified as the “Centre Agricole Emploi.”

Fast forward a month, a highlight of last week’s budget was the new Canada Job Grant. It’s to be the centrepiece of new labour market agreements that have yet to be negotiated with the provinces and is an attempt to redesign the way short-term job training money is dished out. Recognizing a disconnect between training and actual employment, the federal government is making the grants a three-way partnership. The federal government will fork out up to $5,000 for retraining so long as the provinces and employers agree to at least match it.

The budget also promised to reform the temporary foreign worker program to ensure non-residents are only considered when “Canadians genuinely cannot fill those jobs” and that employers that rely on temporary foreign workers make efforts to “transition to a Canadian workforce over time.”

The former Air Transat pilots are generally afraid to speak publicly since they’re still trying to find gainful permanent employment. One of the ringleaders of the HRSDC proposal, however, said he hopes the new grant is a solution to the ongoing battle with charter airlines, but remains wary given the government’s disappointing response to his initial proposal.

Another organizer argued getting government money to pay for type-rating shouldn’t “become systematic” for companies as “training pilots is just part of the operating cost of business.”

Neither CanJet nor Sunwing responded to a request for comment on whether they would welcome the new grant as a means of sharing the cost to type-rate Canadian pilots.

CanJet president Stephen Rowe has said in the past that he would gladly hire Canadians if they had the proper type-rating but that his company couldn’t afford to train temporary employees, only to lay them off months later so they could find work elsewhere and maybe not be available to him again the following year.

Sunwing president Mark Williams has said his company is trying to reduce its reliance on foreign workers and last year forked out about $800,000 to get 20 seasonal Canadian pilots type-rated.

That said, it’s still not entirely clear whether pilots will be eligible for the new grant for type-rating training.

“The detailed design of the grant will be negotiated with provinces and territories over the next year, in consultation with stakeholder groups including employer associations, educational institutions and labour organizations,” said Alyson Queen, a spokeswoman for Human Resources Minister Diane Finley.

It seems plausible, however, since the grants are open to those who need “short-duration training” through a community college, career college or trade union training centre. Type-rating training requires about 60 hours of simulator time per two-person crew and can be completed in about six weeks.

Jaren Belrose, a Manitoba pilot who was not among the laid-off Air Transat employees, said he was in a similar situation and managed to convince his province to cover his type-rating costs. Unfortunately, approval came too late as the sun destination flying season was already well underway, but he’s optimistic the new grant program will remedy the situation.

“When I proposed the training to Manitoba, it seemed that they did not have any framework or guidance and were working with their best instinct. I believe that this is why it took them so long to make the decision,” he said.

“We remain optimistic that the airlines that have gone to HRSDC looking to bring in European pilots will now be able to go and apply for training grants instead. I look forward to the time when we won’t have to worry about our jobs going overseas because companies see training as too expensive.”

tcohen@postmedia.com
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Sunwing fleet now down to 27 aircraft:

C-FEZF, a dry-lease from Thomson Airways, who goes by G-FDZF when flying under its own colors, left Canada on March 18th.

A second TUI supplied dry-lease left on March 25: C-GDZE, also from Thomson, G-FDZE under it's real identity, was sent back to the UK.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by V1VRV2 »

Deleted
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by V1VRV2 »

Edited
Due to my bad attitude
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Brmac
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Brmac »

V1VRV2 wrote:Bla bla bla
The core ie old boys cantjet operation are the same whinny old air Atlantic flying club bunch want to be airline pilots.
They never grew up or changed their mentality (flying club) ,now that they are suddenly thrust into the real world of an half ass Crappy charter contract airline, what do they do sit back and wait.... They don't have the balls to step up and take a stance same old bs .

Good luck btw what goes around comes around
What an unfriendly lad you are; shameful attitude. This industry doesn't need people like you in it.
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wallflower
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by wallflower »

All this nonsense 'coz a few French Transat weenies got laid off. Tough.
The foreigners are just doing what Candians do all over the world, and good luck to them.
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

wallflower wrote:All this nonsense 'coz a few French Transat weenies got laid off. Tough.
The foreigners are just doing what Candians do all over the world, and good luck to them.
You wouldn't care to post that under your real name now, would you?
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60N30W
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by 60N30W »

wallflower wrote:All this nonsense 'coz a few French Transat weenies got laid off. Tough.
The foreigners are just doing what Candians do all over the world, and good luck to them.
Wallflower,

I just had a look at our seniority list and even more specifically the pilots on lay-off. I did not see any French pilots on lay-off, or actually employed at TSC, last I heard every pilot at TSC is a CANADIAN passport holder. I did see a bunch of Quebecers, at least one from MANITOBA, one from ALBERTA and one from B.C., not to mention a few From ONTARIO on lay-off status.

Care to retract your statement?

Matthew Jackson
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DeltaHotel
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by DeltaHotel »

All this nonsense 'coz a few French Transat weenies got laid off. Tough.
The foreigners are just doing what Candians do all over the world, and good luck to them.
Shame on you Wallflower. You bring disgrace to this thread and to aviation.
Spit on guys who lost their job. That's low in ANY language. You're a dick.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Wheels »

V1VRV2 wrote:

Bla bla bla
The core ie old boys cantjet operation are the same whinny old air Atlantic flying club bunch want to be airline pilots.
They never grew up or changed their mentality (flying club) ,now that they are suddenly thrust into the real world of an half ass Crappy charter contract airline, what do they do sit back and wait.... They don't have the balls to step up and take a stance same old bs .

Good luck btw what goes around comes around
Ever flown into Newfoundland in October-November. I can#t recall ever seeing 50G75kts in 1200RVR anywhere else. You might have a bit more respect for the Air Atlantic boys after spending 20 years flying on the east coast.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Let's all ignore the 200 foreign pilots having a ball in Canada, collecting Gross pay as Net pay, and let's clobber each other over petty non sense......

If we look the other way, next year there will be 400 of them and it will keep increasing until we are cornered into irrelevance. Their numbers have increased each year over 4 consecutive years and there are people un-intelligent enough to cheer them on.
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Major Cong
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Major Cong »

Actualy Gilles, we do not get gross pay as net pay. We pay European tax as you know. Try to stick to the facts.

We did have a ball though :D
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Last edited by Major Cong on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by GRK »

Dear Mr Wallflower...
I take a little offence to your statement that the majority of us CANADIAN pilots who work outside of our homeland are stealing jobs from locals! Unless you are stirring the pot, I suggest you do a little research into what countries we work in and WHY we are there, and I'm certain you will rethink your statement. I've said it here before...where we all work (outside Canada) is predominantly because these countries have NO ready supply of pilots. Sadly, Canada does have, but for some reason, several operators have found a way to bypass the training and hire foreign labour. You may be sure that the country I work in has a program in place to replace us as soon as the expertise of their locals matches the experience we all bring.
China, India, The UAE, and other Middle Eastern countries are working on it. I see it every day where I live and work. So please don't include us along side the foreign pilot group currently flying in Canada as job stealers...it simply ain't true!
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by TG »

Major Cong wrote:Actualy Gilles, we do not get gross pay as net pay. We pay European tax as you know. Try to stick to the facts.
Major Cong, it is one of the many arguments.
Your taxes should at list be paid in Canada for the time period you live here.
Unless every 4 or 5 days you and your colleagues are rotating back in Europe, which would not make sense.

So not only this scheme borrow jobs to locals, but on top of that it is contributing nothing to our "Canadian" society, since your taxes goes else where.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Major Cong wrote:Actualy Gilles, we do not get gross pay as net pay. We pay European tax as you know. Try to stick to the facts.

We did have a ball though :D
I do stick to facts, as usual. It depends which "we" you belong to. All foreign pilots in Canada are not sourced at the same place and under the same conditions. Those hired by Canjet for example are hired through a Swiss/British firm and pay no taxes anywhere. Some others who work full time for an airline in Europe pay taxes in their home country. I heard though that there is a scheme in Europe where one is only taxed if he spends more than six months in a country and that the six month stint in Canada allows those who partake to avoid paying taxes at either end.....
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by YHZGOOSE »

GRK wrote:Dear Mr Wallflower...
I take a little offence to your statement that the majority of us CANADIAN pilots who work outside of our homeland are stealing jobs from locals! Unless you are stirring the pot, I suggest you do a little research into what countries we work in and WHY we are there, and I'm certain you will rethink your statement. I've said it here before...where we all work (outside Canada) is predominantly because these countries have NO ready supply of pilots. Sadly, Canada does have, but for some reason, several operators have found a way to bypass the training and hire foreign labour. You may be sure that the country I work in has a program in place to replace us as soon as the expertise of their locals matches the experience we all bring.
China, India, The UAE, and other Middle Eastern countries are working on it. I see it every day where I live and work. So please don't include us along side the foreign pilot group currently flying in Canada as job stealers...it simply ain't true!
A bit one sided. Don't you do it for the money? Many won't work in Canada because the pay scale is not appealing.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by GRK »

YHZGOOSE,

In a way, you are partly right. The money does attract a certain level of pilot to leave and fly off shore. The CX bunch are a (or used to be..."A" scalers are a shrinking breed there) good example. They hire cadets and the comparison is the money they lure people in with. It ends at that point though, it's a long way to a seat if you go that way, although the level of pay seems attractive to some. CX also is renowned for poor treatment and multiple rule changes as the management sees fit. Tough gig if you ask me. I never considered them as a great place to work. The rest of us seem to be off shore due to company failures,and/or mergers slowing down career progression to name two reasons to end up off shore. For some, the money one of the reasons to stay, but for others it's a job that comes with many many pitfalls and losses. Family life is hard and if even only one of you is unhappy, it is seriously hard to make it work. Many of us see marriages fall apart at a rate that will surprise you. Kids can't wait to leave as soon as they are legal to live on their own, schooling is for profit and in many cases that's all they care about. Workers rights do not exist, in a few countries your basic fundamental rights are non existent, you wife isn't allowed to work or drive, and what you believe spiritually is usually wrong and forbidden and forced underground. The beancounters have figured out how to wring the maximum amount of work for the lowest cost and pilots are flying maximum hours each month with minimum rest and believe me when I say it takes a physical and mental toll on some. The average amount of time spent overseas by the majority is seven years before it all starts to feel wrong. So yes, the money is pretty good (non taxed or partly taxed) but where does one draw the line? Expats are treated like second class citizens and there are many websites that provide the proof. (KAL is a great example of how poorly it goes for some) Others simply replace expat pilots with their own citizens as soon as they are even partly qualified. So it's not as simple as you think...there's a cost for giving up and trying to make your big bundle off shore. Eventually you get tired of it, and start looking for ways to come home...to what though? Seniority and a race to the bottom makes it ridiculous financially to even think about it. Most come home to retire, or hope to get a corporate job. If they want to fly at all. So do we do it for the money? That's where you're mostly right, because for most, there ain't much else!
Cheers...
GRK
PS: I'm one of the lucky ones, my wife and family like it where we are and my job is a great mix of flying, on super equipment with a pretty good operator, but it took me 30 years to get this far, so when we retire, it'll a great end to my career! (We hope!)
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