Personality conflict in the cockpit

cargo_guy · Post by **cargo_guy** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:17 am

How do you deal with personality conflicts in the cockpit? Have you ever had to fly with a captain who was a real a$$#ole? How did you deal with it?

Let's just say I have a "friend" who's had the pleasure of flying with such a person in the very recent past. Lets call my friend Tom. His captain is a real know-it-all. Even when he's wrong, he's right. That's not so bad. But said captain is also very, very condescending. He talks to all his FO's as if they're stupid. And has a short fuse.

Tom is a quiet guy and tends not to respond to the captains subtle insults. But, he did, hit the breaking point a couple of times with said captain, and spoke up. One time, said captain sarcastically corrected Tom for not saying please, when requesting FSS to close the flight plan. I don't know about you, but I don't think it is within a captains realm of responsibities to be correcting anyones manners. That's what mothers are for.

What's more, said captain will hardly speak during flight. Tom has attempted to make casual conversation to ease to tension on the flight deck. How was your weekend? Seen any good movies lately? That kind of stuff. Only to be greeted by one word answers. After a while its like pulling teeth. Its like a bad date.

Makes for a very awkward flight. Tom has resorted to bringing a newspaper and keeping himself occupied that way during cruise (and of course monitoring the machine).

This captains demeanor can even be said to be a safety hazard since FO's are going to be that much less likely to challenge deviations.

Tom has thought of calling in sick when flying with said captain because its gotten so out of hand. Even thought of going to see the chief pilot about it.

What advice do you have for Tom? How did you deal with a similar scenario?

Cargo_guy

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:33 am

I know of someone on a Westwind like that and she just quit after 5 months. I guess you can only try your best or maybe have a talk with the captain. Don't go to management cause in most cases they won't do anything for you and if the captain finds out he just might make your flying more unpleasurable than it already is. Try to resolve the situation with the captain first but if all attempts fail, then you should see the CP.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:11 am

Quick call your friend and tell him not to see the chief pilot about this.

The time to talk to this captain is before or after you're in the plane with them. I can't think of a worse or more dangerous place to settle difference than a flight deck.

Say something like it's pretty obvious that you have issues with me, I'd like to talk about that before we go flying again. Then he gets his say and your buddy will get his. Don't bring the chief pilot in on this petty squabbling it's not his job to act as personality mediator. Your friend should have learned to handle bullies in the school yard.

If talking doesn't work, your friends company will have a human resources component. If your friend feels this captain uses his position of authority to belittle fellow co-workers and you can get documentation, he can be forced to undergo an attitude adjustment or face something much worse.
Your friend isn't alone in this, although they probably feels like they are. This stuff is at every outfit on the planet. You have to learn to deal with it or get out of the business.

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:29 am

90%of the people in this world are recognize that they are human and will try to change. the other 10% are dictators and brute force is the only answer. remember that .

so the choice is yours to make -

1/ suck up the idots crap and hope he doesn't kill you some dark foggy night on a approach to min's OR

2 / confront the sum bitch before that happens get it resolved peaceful like.

3/ brute force and don't worry about the career there will always be a
descent job for those who have the flight time and the big nuts /or ovaries to stand up and make descisions instead of pass'n the buck.

cockpit_cowboy · Post by **cockpit_cowboy** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:40 am

I have flow with a couple of people in my career that I have not particularly liked. I have found that it is much more work to be an assh**e to the person, rather than try to get along. What I have found that works is finding out what the person is interested in, and ask questions about it. I have yet to find a pilot who hates to talk about themself.

Maybe invite him for a beer and ask him for some constuctive criticisms, its a good way to open door for discussion, and maybe find out why this guy has issues with you.

Good Luck!

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:42 am

Driving Rain, that sounds like excellent advice!

Cargo Guy... like he said, talk to the man... If you find you can't, or until you do (sorry, I mean, tell your friend this), don't dwell on it while you're with the guy, be natural and enjoy the peace. It could be that in his silence that's all he wants to do as well.

One comment on the politeness correction: some of us...- I'll confess I'm like that -... find the lack of a "please" or a "thank you", when it ought to come, quite grating. I've gotten to the point that when I hear it, I'll add myself: "He meant to say 'Please' " to the communication. That's probably just as grating to others, I don't know?... but I can't often just say nothing. If Mom didn't teach it, maybe someone else can?

Good luck to your friend.

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:37 am

TOM,

You don't listen. Like I told you yesterday, if you want advice, say 'please', and address your superiors properly, such as myself, Senior Captain Longcock.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:56 am

Oh, and Tom, sorry your mother failed you in this way.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:42 am

Tell your friend to start documenting things that are happening. I agree with Driving Rain, don't go to the CP by yourself. Talk to the other co-pilots and see what their thoughts are on this guy and maybe they have some suggestions on how to deal with him. He is obviousley someone in the position who is very insecure about his ability and probably shouldn't be there.

My experiences have been the pricks are the least capable and they feel a need to belittle to overcome the insecurity.

As a last resort try to lobby all the co-pilots to make a stand against this guy and then the company will have no choice but deal with it. I would doubt they will fire all the co-pilots and keep the problem but alone that maybe a different story.

Remember the squeaky wheel doesn't always just get oiled it sometimes gets replaced!!!

scm · Post by **scm** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:46 am

hey mitch, i'll start saying "request please close flight plan", just for you

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:16 am

Perrrfect.

...standing in a line for a breakfast... your buddy in front of you says to the nice girl: "I'll have sausages and eggs."

That's when I pipe up... "He meant to say 'please'.. " Usually, that guy adds: "Yeah, please" and we chuckle... but he might remember next time? ...you never know?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:17 pm

" My experiences have been the pricks are the least capable and they feel a need to belittle to overcome the insecurity. "

Exactly, and they destroy the concept of CRM and normal crew interaction.

Cat

Meatball Hauler · Post by **Meatball Hauler** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:21 pm

Obviously, this Captain is creating a problem for your friend that he finds difficult to deal with. If it is really as bad as he says, then he must deal with these situations person to person as they arise (always on the ground). From my limited experience as an F/O and a Captain, I have a lot more respect for those people who point out my errors and are willing/capable of backing up their reasoning with facts.
I would suggest proceeding cautiously but firmly on the significant matters. If it is the chicken sh-t that bothers you (the 'please' issue) then leave it alone. Be the better personality and treat him courteously but otherwise ignore him. A good employee is one that gets along well with those who he is required to work with. Your boss probably knows the guy is a goof. Use this opportunity to show how mature and professional you are. Otherwise,use the time with the jerk productively by reading the AFM etc.
All that aside, I have had the opportunity to fly with a goof like this. I handled it in a rather unconventional manner by calling him an As-hole mid way through our 10 flight hours together. He laughed and all was fine after. I occasionally see him around and call him an as-hole to his face. It still makes him laugh. Despite the effectiveness of this approach in this specific instance I do not recommend it.
Every situation is different so good luck.... to your friend.

R2000/1830 · Post by **R2000/1830** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:25 pm

[quote="cargo_guy"]
What's more, said captain will hardly speak during flight. Tom has attempted to make casual conversation to ease to tension on the flight deck. How was your weekend? Seen any good movies lately? That kind of stuff. Only to be greeted by one word answers. After a while its like pulling teeth. Its like a bad date.
Cargo_guy[/quote]

Some pilots don’t like to talk in the cockpit, I flew with a couple old captains at my last job that I thought hated me because we would go days without talking (excluding standard calls) so I stopped trying to talk to them. Found out latter from the chief pilot that they loved flying with me because they had kids and a wife at home that never stopped talking, when they got to work they just wanted to relax and I would let them.

Also the person may think that there sarcasm is funny, give it to them right back it might be all he is waiting for.

If they think they no it all let them think it, study your shit know it better than they do but don’t say anything when they are wrong and laugh to yourself. It can be really fun, who cares if they think 1+1=11 they are the dumb ass not you. (Just remember to speak up if he’s going to do something to kill you.)

And above all stand up for yourself in a respectful way, you might find you can learn something from this grumpy @#$! once he respects you.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:11 am

I have never had the pleasure of working with SnJ, so thus far my most abrasive captain was a lot like the previous posts. He initially wouldn't address me by name, he called me "First Officer" or "Junior", which annoyed the hell outta me. I had a few thousand hours flying time, some in higher-performance aircraft than the one I was currently flying. But I didn't have any time on type and he made it sound like I had never spun a prop. I don't mind if someone calls me a student pilot - I'm always looking to improve - but I do take offense when someone calls me ignorant. Anyway...

The very first time I flew with him, he took my lunch (I had set it behind my seat) and threw it to the back of the airplane. "First officer, please don't leave your junk up front". This was maybe my first 2 weeks online, and I was insecure already so it sure didn't help my mindset.

One time we were out flying late at night, or early in the morning and it was my flying leg. We didn't have any autopilots installed, so it was all hand-flying. We had at least an hour to go before landing, and the sleep demons were coming for me. I said "Well, I'm about to fall asleep, so I'm just going to talk to keep myself awake." He cut me off immediately. "You know what I hate? F/o's that talk too much". If I hadn't still been on probation at the time he would have gotten a bitchslap for that one.

He was pretty mean in how he treated me; and it was a very autocratic setup. I was the slave, I did the work and he stood by the fence and smoked, then came into the plane to spread the bitterness. After a few times I had enough; I would almost get physically sick when my pager went off and I knew I'd be spending the next 15 hours with this guy. I called dispatch and asked not to be paired with this captain, and that worked for a while. Eventually the schedule worked out so that we had to spend our next 10 days together, so at the start of the first day, I took him aside.

"I respond better to criticism and suggestions if you don't yell and treat me badly. When you step on me, I get distracted thinking about how amusing it would be to run you through a spinning prop, and I need to concentrate on flying the airplane. I hope you understand."

He looked surprised, then he laughed, said "Okay" and it never came up again. I think he was just waiting for me to stick up for myself, and once I showed that I wasn't going to be his bitch, he backed off and once again all was in harmony.

... · Post by **...** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:42 am

I admit it…there is some brilliance in your paranoid induced delusional post

…but there is no excuse for being rude toward your co-worker making things difficult in the work space.

The target is, evolution of thought, not the erosion of it.

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:...If someone takes out a newspaper..their privelage of flying my plane evaporates immediately.

...new meat are hanging on by their fingernails and should only be thinking about what is going on with the flight. When new people start asking me their bullshit questions....its time to run every system in the plane...if they want to talk so bad...lets talk about what they have learned so far ...and in most but not all cases its very little.....an answer to this might be....dont worry about what movies are playing you fuking dick head....worry about your job. Now thats CRM! dont be fooled your happy happy crm can get you killed aswell while everyone smiles and gets along right into terrain.

I end up talking to the 1% who i can find value in, who earn respect with disciplinre and hard work.

Id be the first so far to offer the idea that maybe your friend is a goddamn moron who doesnt meet the standard of that particular captain....maybe ..maybe not.....and how would you know so please dont try to defend him with "hes a great guy" or "he's a good pilot". You may know him when you are with him..he may be able to gusle beer and smoke reifer with the best of them but its possible he's a shit pilot.... he may be completely different when he and that captain are together. You will never know exactly what transpired.

Im confident that there have been few who have been more abrasive than i. As a result i get to gather data on the f/o most of you know nothing about. You are to busy reading your newspaper, doing your crosswords and being toit aviation pals.

Ever had one of those pilots who wont shut the fuk up...you know...they go on and on about nothing important...try staring at them till they stop talking and look away, so uncomfortable is that, that they can feel your disapointment that you are 26 miles from destination and they have no clue that they should have begun a descent 10 miles ago. They then understand that being in icing for 3 minutes with no anti icing equipement turned on is unacceptable...they know at that point that they have leveled off in the climb and are diverging from they course without correction is not how we get to point b. Some personalities need to be dealt with quickly and positively

One last note on the word please...it doesnt really belong in aviation. Imagine you asking for something...like flaps 10. Try thinking the first part of this request like this " I command you to set" but only say
"flaps 10" Please is for turkey dinner at grannies...Please is for getting helmut from your best friends wife...not the flight deck...please is taking the fake in crm to a level that is quite outragous. Unfortunately i catch myself saying please and i try to weed it out. It wont make setting flaps 10 any nicer or easier etc, if it does for you...get some help

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:51 am

Captain SnJ,

Lets get something straight.

I NEVER said please to your wife.

motherfokker · Post by **motherfokker** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:58 am

i love that vid of the flamin whatever

A330 · Post by **A330** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:26 pm

Awesome !

There are some funny people out there, Jiggly bus is one of them, but Capt S&J tops is list. This clone cannot be real.....

"Please" capt. S&J keep it coming, you crack me up.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:39 am

Don't know if you are in a one, two or many plane/crew environment.
a.) You have to stand up for yourself
b.) Challenge the "ass***e" and see what happens
c.) Consult with others then, if there is a consensus that this is truly the case, go to the CP.

Hate to agree with S& J, but already had it in mind before reading his post that "please" does not appear in aviation terminology.
Your friend is probably right in this case alone. Any captain berating an F/O for not saying please probably is a moron when it comes to professional abilities.

Yes, quiet on the flightdeck is often a blessed relief.

Good team spirit, helpfulness to the junior people, common courtesy, repression of personal abrasions to avoid conflict, CRM??????

All good stuff!!!!!!!!

cargo_guy · Post by **cargo_guy** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:34 am

Thank you to all those that replied. I was away and unable to reply sooner.

Ok... obviously there is no Tom.

A couple of things: I'm not the only FO that has had a problem with said dickhead. Almost without exception every FO that has flown with him thinks he's a prick. I was just the lucky guy to get paired up with him for a long stretch there. There is another FO that has admitted to almost quitting because of this prick. Said FO was new with the company and got paired up with this prick for an even longer stretch than I.

Anyways, after I told him to @#$! off after his last "please" outburst, he was Mr. Nice guy. Go figure!

Lots of good advice in this thread and once again I thank you.

Its dissappointing that a few backyard psychologists out there think they've got me all figured out based on one post... But alas, its to be expected from the class clowns out there.

Cargo_guy

short bus · Post by **short bus** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:01 am

Don't know if you are in a one, two or many plane/crew environment.

Going out on a limb here, but if you're having a personality conflict in a one crew plane, I'd say you've got some more serious issues to deal with.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:33 am

DareDevil · Post by **DareDevil** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:21 pm

Things like this I can see happening all the time in this industry. These personality conflicts even happen on the ramp aswell as the cockpit...Its a tough spot since none of us even are flying. Apparently he knows everything there is to know about ramp work fresh outta flight school and about flying at 200hrs, even more than the instructors at company groundschools. It blows my mind...But what can the guys who bust their a#@ on the ramp and doin other crappy jobs do about it without getting themselves into trouble.....The advice I have given myself is to keep my trap shut and keep doin my job! But at the same time, I feel obligated to my company to have them realize what kind of guy is working for them, someone who potentially will be flying an airplane, dealing with customers, etc. He has the potential to turn into one of these Captains....But I guess it all starts on the ramp and if they don't see it then maybe I shouldn't either!

MAG1 · Post by **MAG1** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:19 pm

I'm new in the right seat of the IFR world, but what pisses me off is when I'm the PNF and my capt. uses the radio to correct some communication I made that didn't meet with his approval. He'll get on the radio and say thanks to the FSS guy for closing the flight plan when I so absent mindedly forgot. It's the correction of things that aren't important to the safe conduct of the flight or clarity of a clearence that gets me. If I'm on the radio's, I'm on the radio's, If I'm flying, don't touch the controls. Barring any major lapse in conduct of course. I learn something from all my capts. but I'm not learning to be them. One day I'll be my own capt. a piece of all the captains I flew with.

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Personality conflict in the cockpit

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