Marijuana Poll

[xsbank]

[Beefitarian]

Anybody else not happy with the way our industry is going, that the makeup of the personnel is changing for the worst?

I'm more upset by society at large becoming obnoxious. People trying to run each other off the roads just to get somewhere 46 seconds sooner. General selfishness.

[Captain S itmagnet]

An emphatic NO!

A question that needs no answer...
Would you knowingly board an aircraft and sit in the back while aware that the crew was impaired/under the influence of a substance that degrades your ability make quick decisions/perform motor skills/multitask? (and yes that includes alcohol, but we have rules and sop's that govern the time from bottle to throttle, although they do get blurred sometimes)
You can't show up under the influence of alcohol and work, so what would make under the influence of marijuana ok?

CSM

[cncpc]

As a peronal note.. I dont want to fly with anybody that is impaired from anything, but the reality is we do it all the time with some who have not had enough sleep, or maybe are a bit hungover..What bothers me is the total acceptance of smoking dope by some...As far as I know, they smoke dope for the effect, but somehow, through rationalization, they dont think it has any effect on them the next day..It takes a bit of reality denial to get your head around that fact.

I have been trying my best to bite my tongue on this topic, but as usual I cant take it anymore!

Absolutely the best post in this thread and possibly the finest ever in terms of truths presented in the history of this forum. Truth, balanced perspective, and a very correct analysis and conclusion. A+.

[2550]

This is a scary poll. Im pretty sure its skewed in the yes direction by some demographic not present in the working pilot world.

Two things...Its a lot easier to tell if your capt or Fo is hungover than it is to tell he or shes a bit stoned, or affected by something else.
Also, its harder for them to tell when they re not at their best due to pot. Its pretty clear to both parties if they re hung over.

This, plus the fact that pot lingers in the body a lot longer than alcohol, makes it a more insidious problem in my opinion. Not to condone either one...showing up for work impaired by anything should have major consequences.

If I were an owner the number at the top of this thread would have just decided me in favor of random testing.

[cncpc]

This is a scary poll.

What's so scary about it? The question is whether commercial pilots should smoke marijuana in their off duty time.

Quite a few people have taken off duty time to mean on the way to work, but not quite there yet. That serves a certain prejudice.

Another prejudice evident here is that marijuana has a effect that lasts as long as there is THC in the blood. I think the prevailing scientific opinion is that its potentially impairing effects last between 6 and 8 hours. THC in blood is metabolized THC, which means the body has done whatever it does with it, in the process producing the "high", and then the ashes of the THC hang around in the blood for a long time.

If you believe in drug wars, and that Ronald Reagan was a great president, you probably don't like that explanation.

I don't smoke pot because I did read once where there was a belief in aeromedicine that heavy use might have an effect on processes in the inner ear. That was enough for me. Overreaction to an unproven hypothesis? Perhaps. But pot smoking wasn't ever all that important to me. I accept that it is to some people and I believe that it should be legal. I don't believe that all drugs should be legal. Some illegal drugs are illegal for very good reasons.

[Tim]

THC in the blood and in the body (stored in fat cells) are different. In your blood causes impairment, in your fat cells does NOT. The question was not "is it ok to fly stoned?" The answer to that one would be easy...although based on some peoples posts there are obviously people who believe it is ok to fly while stoned (yikes...)

The question was about use in off duty time. Let's assume that meant free of the effects before flying. Drinking does not make you an alcoholic, smoking pot doesn't make you a drug addict. I don't want to get on the flight that has a drunk/stoned/dead tired/sick/etc flight crew. That crew needs to be fit to fly.

Consider the post-crash drug/alcohol test that pilots and ATC are subjected to. The test is done on the BLOOD. Not urine. Why? Because evidence of drug and alcohol use in the urine has no bearing on whether or not someone is impaired.

All that being said, its still illegal. I've got several applications out to companies who drug test. Moral stance aside, I want those jobs, so in addition to showing up fit for flight, I also do not smoke in my off time. That's the way this business works. If you want to smoke in your off time, you have to apply to companies that don't drug test. And you'd better hope you don't have an incident with any trace in your blood.

[FICU]

The fact is that marijuana used occasionally is no different than the guy who comes home after a hard days work and has 2 rum and cokes to "chill out" after 12 hours on the flightdeck...

Fly safe and SOBER all.

Most pot smokers don't do it occasionally to unwind, they do it every chance they get.

[RoundEngineRumble]

Why is everyone so up in arms about 'not operating at peak levels' and 'making good decisions' while impaired? Hell a notable population of 'good' pilots can't make a well informed and by all objective judgements 'good decision' sober and rested! Air France runs off the end of the runway in a thunderstorm, why were they landing in a thunderstorm? Aircrews bust minimums and pile into North Spirit Lake, and (insert accident in memory here). 20,000 hour bush pilot flies into hill on the side of a lake he's been flying into for a decades. All perfectly sober.

I'd bet that residual thc would have little effect on pdm at the end of the day. The indivudual's outlook on life and reaponsibility would weigh much heavier towards outcomes. Introduce me to an airline pilot who claims they've never flown fatigued and had a close call because of it, and I'll introduce you to someone who doesn't need to wear a lifevest because they're so full of ##it, and believes medical doctors and police officers are so professional that they would never consider recreational pot use during their off time. Silicon valley is full of stupid useless stoners. They built the virtual world that has become critical to everyday life. They make more money, have bigger houses, and married prettier wives than most pilots. But, they're just stupid useless stoners. Lower lifeforms, obviously.

This is why its becoming less and less lucrative to be a pilot... The job isn't getting easier or in decreasing market demand. Rather pilots (people) are running more and more on autopilot in thier perspectives of reality. Bad thing.

Just saying. There are a lot of broad brush strokes happening here. I don't condone or condemn the activity. Any individuals suffering from reduced capacity in a wide variety of forms should tread cautiously into a cockpit for risk of reputation, career, and pulse.

[pelmet]

I had my first toke and my first BJ at the same time - beat that!!!!!!

I just hope that you were not doing the sucking in for both cases.

[Old fella]

I had my first toke and my first BJ at the same time - beat that!!!!!!

I just hope that you were not doing the sucking in for both cases.

Hey man..... back in the 70's us heterosexual males had the skill set to...........

[Meatservo]

I have a good many friends who are not pilots who smoke dope. Now please don't flame me for saying this, because I'm not trying to sound discriminatory here, but it has always seemed to me that I can pick out the long-term dope smokers from a crowd. They seem well, dopey. They speak slowly and seem to be daydreaming a lot, and kind of have the same mild, slightly surprised expression and nothing much seems to be bothering them. It looks peaceful.

A fair question for the dope smokers, then: Do you believe that his is not the case? I'm willing to listen to logic, but there are many people who believe that long-term "chronic" dope smoking makes you dopey. Is this just rhetoric, or is it a possible risk?

I'm more concerned about the lung cancer you can get from smoking those little unfiltered cigarettes. I am quite opposed to smoking of any kind, for reasons of health. I try not to preach about it.

[DonutHole]

I have a good many friends who are not pilots who smoke dope. Now please don't flame me for saying this, because I'm not trying to sound discriminatory here, but it has always seemed to me that I can pick out the long-term dope smokers from a crowd. They seem well, dopey. They speak slowly and seem to be daydreaming a lot, and kind of have the same mild, slightly surprised expression and nothing much seems to be bothering them. It looks peaceful.

A fair question for the dope smokers, then: Do you believe that his is not the case? I'm willing to listen to logic, but there are many people who believe that long-term "chronic" dope smoking makes you dopey. Is this just rhetoric, or is it a possible risk?

I'm more concerned about the lung cancer you can get from smoking those little unfiltered cigarettes. I am quite opposed to smoking of any kind, for reasons of health. I try not to preach about it.

I too have many friends who smoke regularly. I find there are two type of them, those who can handle it and those who can't. Drugs and booze have a different impact on every different person who consumes them.

I have observed what you have but I also know many productive, smart, and 'with it' people who smoke every single day.

A few of these people have very stressful and technical jobs and I believe the long term impact of smoking marijuana is a less of a negative than the build of of stress without relief their job would have otherwise.

But I also know a guy, who is probably one of the smartest people I know who is nothing more than wasted talent. Marijuana has ruined his life. He has no motivation, and has never mastered the skills needed to live an independent life.

I do know a few people who were chronic users, who have now quit, and you can see the difference in their lives. The negative impact of the drug does seem to disappear after the person has quit smoking for a period of time.

As for personal time being personal, it is. If you spend all weekend smoking weed, or laying pipe, I don't care as long as when you show up to work you can do the work in a safe manner.

[Tim]

I have a good many friends who are not pilots who smoke dope. Now please don't flame me for saying this, because I'm not trying to sound discriminatory here, but it has always seemed to me that I can pick out the long-term dope smokers from a crowd. They seem well, dopey. They speak slowly and seem to be daydreaming a lot, and kind of have the same mild, slightly surprised expression and nothing much seems to be bothering them. It looks peaceful.

A fair question for the dope smokers, then: Do you believe that his is not the case?

Based on this poll you have flown with or currently fly with several people who smoke, presumably undetected by you. I agree that it's easy to pick out SOME people who smoke, but that doesn't mean you can pick out all of them. You're talking about the chronic users. Recreational users are no different that recreational drinkers. You can't walk through a crowd and tell who had a bottle of wine with their wife the night before any more than you can tell who smoked a joint with their wife the night before.

To put it in perspective, roughly 10% of Canadians smoke pot. I doubt anyone could pick the majority of them.

[DGuy]

Embarrassing!

[Meatservo]

Based on this poll you have flown with or currently fly with several people who smoke, presumably undetected by you. I agree that it's easy to pick out SOME people who smoke, but that doesn't mean you can pick out all of them. You're talking about the chronic users. Recreational users are no different that recreational drinkers. You can't walk through a crowd and tell who had a bottle of wine with their wife the night before any more than you can tell who smoked a joint with their wife the night before.

To put it in perspective, roughly 10% of Canadians smoke pot. I doubt anyone could pick the majority of them.

To be sure I have. In fact, I have flown with one or two guys that displayed the personality characteristics I described above and I always wondered about them and was proven to be correct later. However to be fair, both the guys I am talking about were competent pilots and nowhere in my original question did I imply otherwise. Any prejudice that you want to read into my post is your own addition.

[trampbike]

Most pot smokers don't do it occasionally to unwind, they do it every chance they get.

Reference for this statement please...

[thatlowtimer]

Just because we voted saying we thought it was ok for people to smoke on their time off doesn't mean that we participate in the activity. Just throwing that out there because I know folks are looking at this thinking that 30% of pilots smoke dope. Now we don't test where I work, but none of us are users and most of us feel the same way. If you want to use on your days off then go for it, just do so responsibly. Much like drinking.

[FICU]

Most pot smokers don't do it occasionally to unwind, they do it every chance they get.

Reference for this statement please...

My eyes... I said "most" not "all".

[LousyFisherman]

So according to many people on here legality is the only thing that counts.

So according to law,
- It is not okay to fly at 4PM if I have one beer at lunch.
- It is okay if I get just shit faced the night before, down 4 shots at 2 AM, then go flying at 10AM even though I have to stop the car on the way to the airport to puke and my head is throbbing and my eyes won't focus. (Otherwise known as a seriious hangover.)
- It is not okay to smoke a joint 7 days ago and go flying today because I have THC in my blood.

In these are my choices I personally want the pilot who broke the law. I WILL BE SAFER!!!

Alcohol was illegal once, LSD was legal once. Hey I have a question?
If a pilot takes Cidney (LSD, acid) and waits 8 hours will you accept him as a pilot.?
<humorous answer>
Only if he shared
</humor>

Next question:
If a pilot places unerring trust in the government to legislate according to society's needs is he or she intelligent enough to fly safely?
The law does not protect citizens,it protects the establishment.

I don't care how big a drunk or stoner or druggie you are, but you should make sure you are in full command of your faculties before you fly. To me this means the law is my personal minimum. And if I am seriously hungover I will not be flying that day.

If your alcohol/marijuana, prescription drug habit starts adversely affecting your work and social life, then you do what Cat did, get help and/or deal with the problem

As for marijuana, I think 24 hours between inhalation and flying is a reasonable limit.

Flame away
LF

[xsbank]

Hey Lousy, thanks for your opinion but a hangover, even if it occurs outside the 8 hours will still render you unfit. As for the 24 hours, those of my friends (not pilots) who smoke only on weekends report feeling, well, dopey for a day or so after. You can't just make up a limit based on your opinion...

[BverLuver]

So according to many people on here legality is the only thing that counts.

So according to law,
- It is not okay to fly at 4PM if I have one beer at lunch.
- It is okay if I get just shit faced the night before, down 4 shots at 2 AM, then go flying at 10AM even though I have to stop the car on the way to the airport to puke and my head is throbbing and my eyes won't focus. (Otherwise known as a seriious hangover.)
- It is not okay to smoke a joint 7 days ago and go flying today because I have THC in my blood.

In these are my choices I personally want the pilot who broke the law. I WILL BE SAFER!!!

Alcohol was illegal once, LSD was legal once. Hey I have a question?
If a pilot takes Cidney (LSD, acid) and waits 8 hours will you accept him as a pilot.?
<humorous answer>
Only if he shared
</humor>

Next question:
If a pilot places unerring trust in the government to legislate according to society's needs is he or she intelligent enough to fly safely?
The law does not protect citizens,it protects the establishment.

I don't care how big a drunk or stoner or druggie you are, but you should make sure you are in full command of your faculties before you fly. To me this means the law is my personal minimum. And if I am seriously hungover I will not be flying that day.

If your alcohol/marijuana, prescription drug habit starts adversely affecting your work and social life, then you do what Cat did, get help and/or deal with the problem

As for marijuana, I think 24 hours between inhalation and flying is a reasonable limit.

Flame away
LF

LousyFisherman,

Why are those our only choices? I choose the pilots that show up for work in a proper state of mind. The fact of the matter is that pot is ILLEGAL at the present time. Like it, don't like it, it does not matter one red cent, RIGHT NOW it is ILLEGAL!

What gives you or anyone else the right to override the government and the law so that you can feel good? Sometimes it would feel good to walk up to someone you don't like and punch them in the face so I can "Unwind". So, because it is an activity that helps me relax, I am not guilty of assault, correct? Same logic applied to another crime with consequences that can hurt others.

Will the legalities change? Maybe, but you can bet there will be further laws and regulations in force specifically identifying pot usage. If you don't like those laws will it still be ok to override them because you are a better judge of your own impairment? It sure would be interesting to see how that defense holds up against investigators or a tribunal or an insurance company! I am with . 100%. You have a simple choice, be a pilot or be a pot user. 1 is a legal activity 1 is not, how do you want to live your life?

BL

[Sun85]

I made it very clear that I totally support the legalizing of all drugs.

--- You want to make it simple for people to go to their neighbourhood "drug store" to buy a kilo of crack or heroine? Guess what's gonna happen when half of your neighbours would become addicted to heavy drugs and would desperately need the money to buy their next hit. And, while we are at it, are you that sure that none of the people you love and care about would succumb to the temptation to visit that lovely store to see what the fuss is all about, and then snort or inject a few times? And then a few more? And then...

[xsbank]

I really don't think that scenario would happen. If heroine were free, would you try it? It's readily available right now, why aren't you on it? Anybody can get any drug they want right now. I agree that there is a number of people in society who have addictive personalities and there's little you can do about that except to treat them. Eliminating the criminal orgs, providing it in pure form and taxing it makes more sense and I'm sure less cab drivers would get stabbed.
Some people still smoke tobacco but many have stopped due to education.

[LousyFisherman]

What gives you or anyone else the right to override the government and the law so that you can feel good?

The same right every other citizen has, the right to improve our society.
I would be honoured to be considered along side such criminals as:
Mohandas Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Emily Pankhurst (sp?), Susan Anthony, Henry Morgenthaler and Jesus

Sheeple don't believe in civil disobedience. citizens do

Sometimes it would feel good to walk up to someone you don't like and punch them in the face so I can "Unwind".

Did you miss the part about not harm others? Maybe you should have a toke and relax.

1 is a legal activity 1 is not, how do you want to live your life?

I want to spend my life helping others as much as possible without hurting anyone. As I age I get better but I am still far from perfect.
And if the government wants to legislate in ways that make that more difficult I am willing to resort to civil disobedience and I am willing to do the time if I am convicted of the crime.

Society has had multiple opportunities to say my behaviour was unacceptable.
Instead in 100% of the cases, the law or government behaviour has been changed because the actions of my fellow citizens

LF