Would you do it if you could start over?

[Dirty A]

Hello, I am relatively new to posting here so forgive me if this is a topic of general repetition.

I have recently finished university (age 23) and am considering several career paths to pursue, one of which is piloting. I have partially completed a PPL, but am no where near any sort of significant investment. Browsing these forums I see a real mix of impressions regarding the profession; from those who claim the industry is doomed and all those still able to walk shall run, to those who predict an incredible demand inflation and stabilized conditions/salary in the near future.

So, to those already involved in aviation, has it been/will it be worth your time? I should note that my goal is to make it into the majors and I would be unsatisfied with anything less. While I understand that the glory days of mid-20th century aviation are long forgotten, is there still a viable future for someone just starting out?

Thank you, and once again I apologize if this topic has been covered extensively.

[tdp19]

Hey Dirty

The best advice I can give you is, If you don`t love flying, and your not passionate about it then I wouldn`t even bother continuing with your training because it is a tough road (maybe wont be soon with cadet programs starting up), low pay, shitty places, away from family and friends, etc. I have friends that I went to flight school with, that are completely out of aviation entirely now, they never really loved flying,certainly didn`t want to leave southern ontario and they just liked the idea of being a pilot. In the end, they got discouraged and ended up leaving industry entirely.

I still love flying, and look forward to going to work MOST days. However I do not love the way the industry is changing, it has changed a lot in the last 5 years and there is not much we can do about it (despite what people say). What I have learned is that SOMEONE will always do the job for cheaper (met a guy that just wanted to fly and told a company they didn`t even need to pay him) and with those kind of people around, nothing will change it will continue to get worse.

You should research Cadet programs, might be of interest since you have a degree already.

[Kestral]

[quote="Dirty A"]

I should note that my goal is to make it into the majors and I would be unsatisfied with anything less.

You are not even a PPL yet and you are already making such statements. . . Why would you say that now as a 23 year-old looking to possibly get in the industry?

There is certainly nothing wrong with wanting your end goal to be at a major airline as the vast majority of aspiring commercial pilots have the same goal. However, not everyone, whether they like it or not, are going to make it to a major. Far less will make it to Capt on a wide-body. I'm not saying you won't reach your goal, but saying that nothing else in the industry other than a major airline job is not good enough for you kinda rubs me the wrong way.

Many pilots, myself included, have fulfilling careers which don't include airline flying. Again, nothing wrong with setting such a goal for yourself, but I would become more open minded before you put the time, effort, and money into getting a commercial/ATPL.

[North Shore]

Dude, if your heart's not in it from the outset, then save your hard-earned money, and don't waste your time. I (many of us?) got into aviation because it's all I ever wanted to do - fly aeroplanes and get paid for it. At the outset, I didn't really care if it was a 172 on a reserve, or a 747 off to foreign places.

If I could start over, I'd change a few things, but I'd still go flying.

[Lost Lake]

The only good part of the flying business is the flying. The rest is pretty much bullshit. Shitty conditions, positions, pay, employers. Not saying their all bad, but it is an industry that is all about "me". I quit sales in the GTA 22 years ago to become a bush pilot. I love the flying, been everywhere in this country, but the wages suck. Moved onto the 704 world, which still included bush flying. There was a cancerous taste with most of the employers. Hard to explain for an individualist. I just moved on from the flying. Will I miss the flying....YES, will I miss the bullshit and shit wages, NEVER! Would I do it over again? Only if I had enough money to buy my own business.

[JMACK]

YES IN A HEART BEAT!

[13820]

Nope

[Colonel Sanders]

Pilots get into flying because they love it,
but they stick with it because of the money.

If the money doesn't appear at some point,
they switch careers to something else that
pays better (and has a better lifestyle). Pretty
tough to raise a family that you never see
on $20k/yr.

I think the newbies would be shocked if they knew:

1) what low a percentage of people that start
flight training, actually end up working as a commercial
pilot in ANY capacity

2) how many years it takes to break $100k/yr

3) how much debt people are accumulating during
flight training, and how badly they are paid for the
first 10 years after that.

[Dirty A]

I should note that my goal is to make it into the majors and I would be unsatisfied with anything less.

You are not even a PPL yet and you are already making such statements. . . Why would you say that now as a 23 year-old looking to possibly get in the industry?

There is certainly nothing wrong with wanting your end goal to be at a major airline as the vast majority of aspiring commercial pilots have the same goal. However, not everyone, whether they like it or not, are going to make it to a major. Far less will make it to Capt on a wide-body. I'm not saying you won't reach your goal, but saying that nothing else in the industry other than a major airline job is not good enough for you kinda rubs me the wrong way.

Many pilots, myself included, have fulfilling careers which don't include airline flying. Again, nothing wrong with setting such a goal for yourself, but I would become more open minded before you put the time, effort, and money into getting a commercial/ATPL.

My goals and aspirations do not intend on undermining the careers of those who chose something other than airline piloting...rather, it is that this sector of the industry interests me about as much as hands-on flight. I really do appreciate your feedback, and I fully understand that there is significantly more to this industry than sitting on the left side of a 747.

[The Other Kind]

Absofriggenlutely. I barely graduated from high school (lazy and bored, didn't apply myself) and I currently make 6 figures while working only a handful of days each month. Best decision I ever made!

[seafeye]

Flew all over Canada and the USA. From a C-150 to CRJ's.

Best flying i ever did was a DHC-2 on the wet coast. Every day i am going through security making that 1 mile walk to my gate so i can take 70 people to some small town 5 times a day, makes me think of the old DHC-2 days. Less money, but a lot more fun and every night at home.
Airline flying for me hasn't been much fun. It is a job. Work 12 hours, 10hrs rest. work 12, 10rest. Work 12, 10 rest, Work 10 go home for 2 days. Last year i did 943 hours with over 600 flights. That's a ton of flying. If that wouldn't suck the love out of it, i don't know what would.

What would i do differently? Never would have left "Home". Should have taken that low paying local flying job. If i needed money then i would have done something on the side. Part out cars, painting, pressurewashing, flight instructing, cooking....anything.
Airline flying = missed holidays, missed birthdays, missed weddings, missed weekends.

[Rowdy]

If I could go back and do it all over again? Two things

1) pick up a trade to make extra $ on the days off or off season and between jobs..

2) TAKE MORE PICTURES@!

But then again.. I love flying!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pilots get into flying because they love it,
but they stick with it because of the money.

If the money doesn't appear at some point,
they switch careers to something else that
pays better (and has a better lifestyle). Pretty
tough to raise a family that you never see
on $20k/yr.

I think the newbies would be shocked if they knew:

1) what low a percentage of people that start
flight training, actually end up working as a commercial
pilot in ANY capacity

2) how many years it takes to break $100k/yr

3) how much debt people are accumulating during
flight training, and how badly they are paid for the
first 10 years after that.

Of all the students I have taught who said they wanted flying as their career, only about 1 in 5 was working as a pilot 5 years after he/she passed their CPL flight test. I don't think think my experience is atypical......

[cj555]

Best flying i ever did was a DHC-2 on the wet coast.

Airline flying for me hasn't been much fun. It is a job.

Besides being away from home, what is it that you dislike the most about working as an Airline pilot compared to flying the DHC-2?

[Lost Lake]

Best flying i ever did was a DHC-2 on the wet coast.

Airline flying for me hasn't been much fun. It is a job.

Besides being away from home, what is it that you dislike the most about working as an Airline pilot compared to flying the DHC-2?

DHC-2:
low and slow hands on flying
Living and working in the outdoors
Great interaction with customers and usually management
Less stress from upper management
Flying a radial engine
Work in unique remote locations
6 months off (without pay)
Independance
Go fishing and hunting in some of the best places in Canada on off hours/days. Get drunk with fellow workers and have campfires

Airline Pilot:
High boring flying
Working out of airports in large cities
Lousy interaction with upper management, limited interaction with customers
More stress from management,
Same daily route
Turbines are definetely more fun, oops, just put one on the DHC-2
Just slight better pay may (maybe) with smaller airlines. Not every airline is AC or WJ
Watch your mouth, with everyone from the wannabe co-jo, to the FA, to other pilots, etc (The airline industry has a better spy network than the CIA)
Go home, get drunk (don't let your crew see you) go to bed, do the same tomorrow

[Dirty A]

Best flying i ever did was a DHC-2 on the wet coast.

Airline flying for me hasn't been much fun. It is a job.

Besides being away from home, what is it that you dislike the most about working as an Airline pilot compared to flying the DHC-2?

DHC-2:
low and slow hands on flying
Living and working in the outdoors
Great interaction with customers and usually management
Less stress from upper management
Flying a radial engine
Work in unique remote locations
6 months off (without pay)
Independance
Go fishing and hunting in some of the best places in Canada on off hours/days. Get drunk with fellow workers and have campfires

Airline Pilot:
High boring flying
Working out of airports in large cities
Lousy interaction with upper management, limited interaction with customers
More stress from management,
Same daily route
Turbines are definetely more fun, oops, just put one on the DHC-2
Just slight better pay may (maybe) with smaller airlines. Not every airline is AC or WJ
Watch your mouth, with everyone from the wannabe co-jo, to the FA, to other pilots, etc (The airline industry has a better spy network than the CIA)
Go home, get drunk (don't let your crew see you) go to bed, do the same tomorrow

While it's hard not to sense at least a minimal bias in favour of non-airline flying, I think you've done an excellent job of demonstrating that the different types of employment are more of a lifestyle preference than just a job.

[natural]

The answer to your question is YES, but that's only because i have a passion for it. Having your PPL or close to it should give you an idea how much you love flying and being "up there" and going different places. I have experienced very slow as well as "hot times" in the industry like right now. By the time you're all finished it might slow down so be ready to work the ramp and make sacrifices for a few years. The choice is yours, if you love it chances are you'll never regret it regardless of how much you struggle along the way.....follow your heart!

Cheers

[X-Savior]

It is true, you need to truly LOVE to fly... no questions asked. Because at the end of the day sometimes this will be the only driving force to keep you going in the morning.

[CAL]

Pilots get into flying because they love it,
but they stick with it because of the money.

If the money doesn't appear at some point,
they switch careers to something else that
pays better (and has a better lifestyle). Pretty
tough to raise a family that you never see
on $20k/yr.

I think the newbies would be shocked if they knew:

1) what low a percentage of people that start
flight training, actually end up working as a commercial
pilot in ANY capacity

2) how many years it takes to break $100k/yr

3) how much debt people are accumulating during
flight training, and how badly they are paid for the
first 10 years after that.

What he said......

[traveller123]

I guess you could consider this career path more like a game of Russian Roulette... what are you willing to lose?

totally true

of course you can start with a good job and zero experience but i'm sure you have more chances to win the lotto max

a lottery ticket at 50 000 bucks, quite expensive...

[GravelOpsRock]

F NO!!!

[human garbage]

If I could start over, I would stop at the PPL level. Flying for a living sucks IMHO. Great way to ruin your love of aviation. I should have used the money I spent on my CPL/MIFR to buy a house instead and kept my former job. I would have been much further ahead, not to mention healthier (stress kills) and happier.

That said, I did meet and work with some great people. Had some really good times too. But when I balance that out with all the a-holes I had to share a cockpit with, crap pay, days away from home living in hotels, never seeing family or being home on holidays.... Well it just wasn't worth it.

[cj555]

I would have been much further ahead, not to mention healthier (stress kills) and happier.

What is it specifically about your career in aviation that causes so much stress and unhappiness?

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Hello, I am relatively new to posting here so forgive me if this is a topic of general repetition.

I have recently finished university (age 23) and am considering several career paths to pursue, one of which is piloting. I have partially completed a PPL, but am no where near any sort of significant investment. Browsing these forums I see a real mix of impressions regarding the profession; from those who claim the industry is doomed and all those still able to walk shall run, to those who predict an incredible demand inflation and stabilized conditions/salary in the near future.

So, to those already involved in aviation, has it been/will it be worth your time? I should note that my goal is to make it into the majors and I would be unsatisfied with anything less. While I understand that the glory days of mid-20th century aviation are long forgotten, is there still a viable future for someone just starting out?

Thank you, and once again I apologize if this topic has been covered extensively.

I guess it depends what you want in life and what your other options are. Flying for the majors can provide a good middle to upper middle class lifestyle along with a good schedule that gives you plenty of time off to see your family, travel, and do the things you enjoy doing. What it doesn't really provide is the mental stimulation or the challenge that being in, for example, a business career where you are directly responsible for the success or failure of a business or part of a business does. Of course those jobs also come with longer hours and more stress.

Getting ahead in any career requires plenty of skills. You obviously need to be good at your job, you need some business sense (lawyers, doctors, accountants etc run their own practices), social skills (networking, working with people), EQ...etc. Whether you become a pilot, a banker, a lawyer, a businessman..etc you're going to need a combination of all those skills to get ahead (different combinations for different careers). So you really need to decide what you're long term life goal is and honestly evaluate what your skill set is (something that is probably quite hard to do at 23).

To keep your aviation career moving you need to be willing, at least in the beginning, to go where the work is. That might be Inuvik, Africa, China, or anywhere in between. The same can be said for other careers too though. High ranking executives in global businesses have probably spent time with their company in divisions around the world as they were moving up the ranks.

I have friends in banking and business, some are very successful and make very good money. Sometimes I think I would enjoy the challenge and risk/reward nature of their jobs. Then I look at how hard they work. They leave home at 7:00-7:30am and if they get home by 7:00-7:30pm they've had a good day. These same friends always tell me they should've become pilots because they see how much time off I have and that I don't have to take my work home with me.

One frustration I have with this career is the lack of control you have over your progression and success. Once you make it to a major airline, you have no control. It's all seniority and standards based. You could be the best pilot in the world but you are no more valuable to the company than the guy who just barely meets the standard. You fly the same amount of hours, on the same routes with the same passengers and generate the same amount of revenue for the company. Therefore you are no more in demand and have no more negotiating leverage than the other guy. And being the best pilot won't get you a promotion any quicker either since it's all seniority based. Compare that with a business or banking career. The CEO is the CEO because he advanced through the company, he was good at his job so he got the promotions ahead of others and he could demand higher compensation because he was in demand. The bankers who get the biggest bonuses and get the promotions are the ones who make the most money for the bank. It's easy for the bosses to see who is the best, they just look at who made the most money. Of course if you're not making lots of money you find yourself unemployed very quickly so it's not the most stable of careers and only the strong survive.

As for the future of the piloting profession, it's hard to say. I don't think there will ever be a massive demand for pilots in Canada, certainly not one that will drive up the salaries by an significant amount. The aviation scene is already well developed and demand is relatively consistent. We're not a developing economy that will see a huge increase is demand for air travel. Most future demand for pilots will come from retirements and small rates of growth. If you're willing to leave Canada though there is and will continue to be a big demand in Asia for the the foreseeable future. More than 1/3 of the world's population lives in China and India and millions of them are joining the middle class every year. That's where the growth is. Most of these jobs are contract jobs. In the last few years the money being offered for these jobs has increased substantially and the schedule options are improving as well. That being said, the jobs are very hit and miss. Some are very good, some are awful. The same can be said for the employment agencies you deal with.

I don't agree with others who say you have to have a passion for flying. I enjoy flying, but it was never a "passion". I didn't have to do it. I made a career decision. I have met the goals I set out and have what I consider to be a very good job. I am not aware of any flying job in the world that I would leave my current job for. I sometimes wonder if I made the right career choice, but I never think I made the wrong one.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Been thinking of the best way to answer this question.

So here is the best I can come up with.

I was fortunate to have started in aviation when we learned to fly airplanes that required a lot more attention to how to operate them because there were few automatic systems.

For instance operating a DC6 in the arctic off airports IFR was a lot more difficult than flying a modern Jet.

I did not really make good money until almost fifty years into my career, that sort of made worthwile but I am not sure it it was worth it in the long run.

For sure I would not even consider it in todays world of aviation.