Montreal CTV News: Air Transat could turn to foreign pilots

[ea306]

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/transat-coul ... -1.1224781

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And this La Presse Article in French also adds that Transat may resort to foreign wet-leases as well. They will do this in the summer, for wide bodies, which, thanks to Sunwing have become "Seasonal".

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... angers.php

Si la demande le justifie, Transat pourrait toutefois accroître le nombre de gros porteurs dans sa flotte en faisant appel à des compagnies étrangères offrant la location d'appareils et d'équipages pour des durées déterminées.

Transat emprunterait ainsi, du moins en partie, la stratégie adoptée par Sunwing, dont les vols sont en bonne partie effectués par des avions et des pilotes étrangers.

The message: We will do like Sunwing does.

Thank you Sunwing!

[whipline]

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

Stop trying to make believe you guys do any kind of reciprocity, thank you.

Sending Sunwing aircraft on wet-lease overseas is like Transat does with XL or with Garuda. It's wet-leases. It does not count toward the Canada Immigration program called reciprocity which is a WORK PERMIT swapping program.

In any case, even if wet-leases did count, you guys have been sending 3 or 4 aircraft every year to Europe since 2006. As I already posted, from 2006 to 2012, Sunwing sent a grand total of 25 aircraft on wet-leases to Europe. I listed the years, the registrations and the companies they worked for in another post.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 25#p789772

Sunwing had been importing foreign aircraft and crews from day one.

In 2012 alone, Sunwing imported 22 foreign aircraft and crew:

The Travel Service 737 that came on Feb 1 2012
The two 767 from Portugal that did the Europe flights
Fifteen short term dry leases from TUI FLy, Thomson, Jetairfly and Travel Service
Another 4 wet-leases from Travel Service.

So please spare me this fiction of you guys doing any kind of reciprocity.

You never have. You never will. It was just powder to throw in the eyes of the gullible CIC employees. Now they know better.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

Oh and I forgot. Your President is Mark Willliams. He was using foreign crews when he was at the head of Skyservice, when Canjet was not yet in the charter business, so to claim that Transat is responsible through Canjet is also a legend.

Here is a 2003 TSB incident report about a Skyservice aircraft that ran off the runway in Windsor Ontario (several years before Canjet began its relationship with Transat) and guess who was in the right seat ? A Foreign pilot using an illegal FLVC. Guess who was President of Skyservice at the time ?

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 3o0034.pdf

The first officer was an employee of My Travel Airways Ltd., United Kingdom (UK) and was flying for Skyservice Airlines for the winter season as part of a crew sharing arrangement between Skyservice and My Travel

Guys like you never admit to being wrong no matter how much evidence is put before them.

Now that Pandora's box is open we can either do something TOGETHER to stop this now, or we can continue arguing and discuss what we should have done about it in a few years over a beer when we will both be in China or Dubai when foreign crews will have taken over our livelihood in our own country.....

It's beyond me that you are not on my side on this issue.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

Now that Pandora's box is open we can either do something to stop this now, or we can continue arguing and discuss what we should have done about it in a few years over a beer when we will both be in China or Dubai when foreign crews will have taken over our livelihood in our own country.....

And that is if China and/or Dubai still NEED outside help...

[rudder]

So if I understand correctly, the permanent airTransat fleet post 2015 that will be dedicated to providing Groupe Transat lift will be comprised of 21 aircraft - 16 widebody and 5 B737.

Commencing in the fall of 2014, Groupe Transat will subcontract 6 B737 for the winter season that will not be operated by AT. And at some point during or after 2015, Groupe Transat may subcontract an unspecified number of widebody or large narrowbody aircraft for the summer season that will not be operated by AT.

Therefore, it would appear that AT is looking at stable year round staffing (equipment substitution but zero expansion) and that the intention of Groupe Transat is to subcontract away from AT 100% of capacity that cannot support a year round airframe on the AT property.

Sound accurate? What might be the alternative solutions that would benefit the AT pilots and Groupe Transat? Are there any legal or regulatory impediments to Groupe Transat going ahead with the announced plan? Is their plan consistent with positions that it has taken of late with the politicians and the regulators?

I sense that this may not be the final incarnation of 'the plan' as it would appear that there may still be third party issues. We will have to wait and see. Unfortunately, I do not believe that the government nor the regulator will intervene to block seasonal wet-leasing of foreign aircraft and pilots in to Canada.

[ea306]

Or.....
The up side might be that the 50 or so laid off AT pilots along with hopefully more new hires will have year round employment at Air Transat. Air Transat will grow and be profitable all year round.

Perhaps.... A second look at the business model of all the former now defunct charter airlines shows that it was flawed and might be the reason why they do not exist anymore?

Maybe..... Looking forward and changing with the times, we all can try and think outside of the box a bit. Maybe we can focus on what will be best for Canadian Pilots in the long run and make sure no more than the necessary amount of non-Canadian help is used by Canadian Operators. In that focus, perhaps ALPA and BALPA can work towards proper reciprocity between the EU and Canada and lobby their respective governments accordingly?

If a mutual benefit can be found for our profession here in Canada and Europe where we see greater employment opportunities and solid long term year round employment and absolutely minimize or eliminate the need for seasonal lay offs; perhaps there will be room to get past the optics of having a non-national sharing the flight deck in both the EU and here in Canada.

Perhaps both Transport Canada and EASA need to review how their regulations will be written in the future.

Or......we just go back to inefficiencies and suffer more bankruptcies and suffer more career losses. Personally I have had enough of bankruptcies and changing airlines every few years.

Wishing prosperity and security for all Canadians as well as our neighbors across the Atlantic Ocean.

Just my 2cents.... Realize most here do not agree. But I will say one thing. Wanted a level playing field for AT vs. Sunwing? It was only a matter of time before those behind the commercial business of aviation recognized the merit of a different business model.

Now perhaps we can see the crusade work towards making sure Canadian interests are looked after without taking a complete protectionist position. It is a global business after all.

Either way, interesting times ahead. I hope they mean better times for everyone.

[3 holer]

So lets step back and look at this. AT, SWG, CJT and WJ have all adopted supplementing lift through wet of seasonal aircraft with foreign crews. The way I see it is that the one remaining and largest Canadian carrier Air Canada will either have to also follow suit to remain competitive in this market segment or CR will have to pick up his hot line to the PMO and tell Stevie Wonder to put a stop to this practice and force everyone to crew their aircraft with Canadian labour and to operate a fleet size that they can operate year round without relying on importing foreign labour and lift into the market. What has happened to Air Transat is a good case study to show how the current practice has destabilized the industry and resulted in job losses in Canada. As this strategy is left to proliferate it will only get worse and lead to more unemployment and a heavier dependence on seasonal foreign labour when the focus should be to foster more stable year round employement. It is clearly evident that this is now on the governments radar. It remains to be seen how this government will react and how serious they are about their Economic Action Plan to stop this practice. Either way there is a big shake up coming. These big hiring booms are also usually followed by big furloughs. Someone's going to get clipped because there is way too much lift getting pumped into a market with a slowing economy. Hold on to your hats boys.

[rudder]

Or.....
The up side might be that the 50 or so laid off AT pilots along with hopefully more new hires will have year round employment at Air Transat.

Several of those laid off have or will resign from AT based on this announcement. With very little upside potential for promotion or advancement, and with greater industry wide opportunities than have been available in several years, alternatives to recall at AT will likely be pursued.

I still feel that a 737 course paid for by AT and placement at CJ for the winter 2013/2014 season for interested AT furloughees is a win-win for both companies, particularly if they ultimately decide to extend their commercial relationship beyond the spring of 2014.

[rudder]

So lets step back and look at this. AT, SWG, CJT and WJ have all adopted supplementing lift through wet of seasonal aircraft with foreign crews. The way I see it is that the one remaining and largest Canadian carrier Air Canada will either have to also follow suit to remain competitive in this market segment or CR will have to pick up his hot line to the PMO and tell Stevie Wonder to put a stop to this practice and force everyone to crew their aircraft with Canadian labour and to operate a fleet size that they can operate year round without relying on importing foreign labour and lift into the market. What has happened to Air Transat is a good case study to show how the current practice has destabilized the industry and resulted in job losses in Canada. As this strategy is left to proliferate it will only get worse and lead to more unemployment and a heavier dependence on seasonal foreign labour when the focus should be to foster more stable year round employement. It is clearly evident that this is now on the governments radar. It remains to be seen how this government will react and how serious they are about their Economic Action Plan to stop this practice. Either way there is a big shake up coming. These big hiring booms are also usually followed by big furloughs. Someone's going to get clipped because there is way too much lift getting pumped into a market with a slowing economy. Hold on to your hats boys.

Guess how many MP's love those low-priced winter getaways? And political intervention already handed AC the Rouge operation on the terms that it requested.

Nope - I do not see YOW blocking seasonal wet lease activity. Year-round wet leases might be a different story (although AC already has a history such as the 2 year Gemini Air Cargo MD11 wet leases). AC and others will have to figure out how to cope on their own.

[3 holer]

Lol...you really think MP's, senators and bureaucrats go on holidays with Sunwing, Transat and Westjet. Now thats funny. To lower themselves to sit in economy with all the commoners, perish the thought. They won't even fly rouge because its sans executive class. If you really think those fat cats in ottawa give a rats ass if you can go to Veradero for $700 all inclusive Ive got some wetland property for sale in Florida you will love.

[60N30W]

3 holer,

I cannot speak for WestJet or Sunwing, I can however speak for Air Transat, in the years I have been there I have flown a number of recognizable faces to both the south and to Europe.

Even stood in line at the YUL Burger King with a General/Senator once and chatted.....

Regards

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,
you are most welcome, very kind words. I believe I predicted this out come 4 days ago.

The message: We will do like Sunwing does.
Thank you Sunwing!

Not sure what's worse, Air Canada getting a $4 Billion relief to there pension obligations from the Canadian Government or the rest of the Canadian players allowed to use wet-lease from time to time....

Rudder,

So if I understand correctly, the permanent airTransat fleet post 2015 that will be dedicated to providing Groupe Transat lift will be comprised of 21 aircraft - 16 widebody and 5 B737.
Commencing in the fall of 2014, Groupe Transat will subcontract 6 B737 for the winter season that will not be operated by AT. And at some point during or after 2015, Groupe Transat may subcontract an unspecified number of widebody or large narrowbody aircraft for the summer season that will not be operated by AT.
Therefore, it would appear that AT is looking at stable year round staffing (equipment substitution but zero expansion) and that the intention of Groupe Transat is to subcontract away from AT 100% of capacity that cannot support a year round airframe on the AT property.

I think that analysis is bang on!!

[I WAS Birddog]

....

After reading the same regurgitated rhetoric decade after decade...I'm not sure why anyone would still want to fly the big jets.

I wish you all well and safe travels.

[TopperHarley]

....

After reading the same regurgitated rhetoric decade after decade...I'm not sure why anyone would still want to fly the big jets.

Because chicks dig widebodies

[YHZGOOSE]

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

Oh and I forgot. Your President is Mark Willliams. He was using foreign crews when he was at the head of Skyservice, when Canjet was not yet in the charter business, so to claim that Transat is responsible through Canjet is also a legend.

Here is a 2003 TSB incident report about a Skyservice aircraft that ran off the runway in Windsor Ontario (several years before Canjet began its relationship with Transat) and guess who was in the right seat ? A Foreign pilot using an illegal FLVC. Guess who was President of Skyservice at the time ?

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 3o0034.pdf

The first officer was an employee of My Travel Airways Ltd., United Kingdom (UK) and was flying for Skyservice Airlines for the winter season as part of a crew sharing arrangement between Skyservice and My Travel

Guys like you never admit to being wrong no matter how much evidence is put before them.

Now that Pandora's box is open we can either do something TOGETHER to stop this now, or we can continue arguing and discuss what we should have done about it in a few years over a beer when we will both be in China or Dubai when foreign crews will have taken over our livelihood in our own country.....

It's beyond me that you are not on my side on this issue.

Gilles perhaps you should do your homework. Mark Williams was a late comer to Skyservice. I'd have to pull my records but he arrived approximately 2000 ish. Skyservice was using foreign pilots from the first season it ever operated as a charter and Mark had nothing to do with it!!

If you are going to sling mud about incidents. Transat's screening policies must have changed since hiring Captain Piche, a convicted drug smuggler who served jail time. Someone's past it their past, and I have nothing but a great admiration for his ability to avoid an almost catastrophic incident brought on by tardy maintenance!!! Yes, I said tardy maintenance!

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/images/a ... tions.html

And lets' not forget the TS rudder issue. Didn't declare an emergency after a Dutch Roll? It's at the discretion of the pilots, but my discretion would have been different.
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/A310 ... 5_(AW_LOC)

Your issue is foreign pilots and over the past months, it's always been us against them. Slinging mud at the character and ethics of Sunwing, CanJet, Mark Williams and Rowe.

I suspected all along, Air Transat would jump on the Foreign Pilot express and they are not going to get off of it any time soon. They know that using foreign pilots is the only way to survive and trust me when I tell you that they are not just considering using foreign pilots, they WILL use them!

No wonder TS didn't renew the contract with CanJet, they just took it and applied it! But I can't blame them. They got a head start when someone handed them the contracts, pay scales, agreements etc. from SWG/CJ, and they saw the benefits.

http://www.brandonsun.com/business/brea ... html?thx=y

Welcome to the club Gilles. And don't be surprised if your right seat on the A330 isn't a foreign guy.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles perhaps you should do your homework. Mark Williams was a late comer to Skyservice. I'd have to pull my records but he arrived approximately 2000 ish. Skyservice was using foreign pilots from the first season it ever operated as a charter and Mark had nothing to do with it!!

I was replying to a whipline who wrote:

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

You make no comment about what whipline wrote but you jump me.

Is whipline correct in his statement ?

I supplied as proof a through an incident report that indicated that a Skyservice aircraft had a foreign pilot in the right seat in 2003 and Mark Williams was president of Skyservice at the time of the incident. Mark Williams brought the practice over to Sunwing. Not Transat. Not Canjet.

Do you agree or do you support whipline and if you do, provide arguments please. Or is the subject of this thread "Gilles Bashing ?"

And while you check your records, back in 2000, did the foreign pilots working at Skyservice do it with a FLVC or with a Canadian License ? You wont reply.

[Mig29]

....

After reading the same regurgitated rhetoric decade after decade...I'm not sure why anyone would still want to fly the big jets.

Because chicks dig widebodies

especially if you look like Fabio!! hahahaah

cheers

[YHZGOOSE]

Gilles perhaps you should do your homework. Mark Williams was a late comer to Skyservice. I'd have to pull my records but he arrived approximately 2000 ish. Skyservice was using foreign pilots from the first season it ever operated as a charter and Mark had nothing to do with it!!

I was replying to a whipline who wrote:

The only ones to thank is yourselves Gilles. You boys introduced this to sunwing. Hopefully there won't be any non reciprical foreign pilots allowed to fly in Canada next winter thanks to you

You make no comment about what whipline wrote but you jump me.

Is whipline correct in his statement ?

I supplied as proof a through an incident report that indicated that a Skyservice aircraft had a foreign pilot in the right seat in 2003 and Mark Williams was president of Skyservice at the time of the incident. Mark Williams brought the practice over to Sunwing. Not Transat. Not Canjet.

Do you agree or do you support whipline and if you do, provide arguments please. Or is the subject of this thread "Gilles Bashing ?"

And while you check your records, back in 2000, did the foreign pilots working at Skyservice do it with a FLVC or with a Canadian License ? You wont reply.

Transat had nothing to do with utilizing foreign pilots in the initial stages. It's only been since April 4th, they have officially embraced it.

Gilles, I am referring to your past posts. Blaming foreign guys for incidents and rather hysterical posts about future crashes that will happen at SWG because of foreign pilots wont' make your plight any better. You forget a lot of these foreign guys have experience and they work for the companies the aircraft are leased from.

Mark Williams did NOT bring foreign pilots to SWG. SWG was under the umbrella of XL and started with one 737 and an office on Fasken Drive next to the SSV office. The practise of foreign pilots, wet leases, reciprocal agreements etc. was being done from the get go, BEFORE Mark Williams ever went there.

Mark Williams is a savvy guy, he also worked with Wardair and Canadian Airlines. He had a vision of taking Sunwing to a different level, and he's done that, but by no means did he bring the idea of foreign pilots to Sunwing. He evolved it!

Gilles it's ok for you to bash and trash but god forbid anyone stands up to your distorting the facts. I object to you using an incident with a My Travel pilot toward your argument about foreign pilots when TS has had their own share of safety incidents! It's really the pot calling the kettle. |What will you do if you have to sit left seat with a foreign pilot on the right seat? Book off sick? And cite you are in fear he may crash the plane?

[confusedalot]

Getting back on topic, meaning that Transat could resort to foreign pilots;

-Transat reorganizes and decides to cut back on subcontracting, leading to a highly likely loss of canadian jobs, including pilots, at the contractors place(s) of employment. Some Canadian employment may be absorbed by Transat in the reorganisation, as in recalls or maybe off the street hiring. Maybe.

-Transat then indicates that the use of foreign pilots is a possibility down the road.

End result, the reorganisation takes canadian pilot employment away and replaces it by temporary foreign worker pilot employment.

Reorganisation equals less Canadian pilot employment. Who would have thunk it.........

And for the grand finale, the financial analyst quoted in the article indirectly endorses the whole thing.

This is sick.

[whipline]

Your incorrect Gilles. Sunwing at the beginning was all Canadian. We sent pilots to work in the UK, they sent none here (one yr we might have had 3 XL pilots come here).

Then everything we did was reciprocal. Canjet signed the deal with AT, they couldn't even come close to crewing those aircraft with Canadians. We tried to stop it for 2 yrs, then adopted it. Would you like to be the pot or kettle?

Skyservice had reciprocal agreements way before mark w joined.

As for not having reciprocal now, your joking right? Every pilot at sunwing is heading over this summer.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Every pilot at sunwing is heading over this summer.

On wet lease!

If that is what reciprocity is, then if you send 4 aircraft to Europe this summer, you get to bring in 4 European aircraft next winter.

But you send 4 and bring in 22 and you have the gall to claim reciprocity.

[monkey]

Sorry Gilles but is this about planes or pilots?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Your incorrect Gilles. Sunwing at the beginning was all Canadian. We sent pilots to work in the UK, they sent none here (one yr we might have had 3 XL pilots come here).

Really ?

Sunwing has been making use of temporary foreign aircraft and crews since the winter 2006-2007.

In 2006 they brought in 2 aircraft C-GDBX and C-GLWB from EuroCypria
In 2007, they brought in 3 aircraft, C-FEAG from XL Airways, and 2 from EuroCypria, C-GDBX and C-GLBW
In 2008, they brought in 8 aircraft, C-FXLD from XL Germany, C-GDBX and C-GLBW from Eurocypria, and C-GHZC, C-GKZA, PH-HZE, PH-HZK and PH-HZL from Transavia.
In 2009, they brought in 4 aircraft, C-FYLD from XL Germany, C-GDBX and C-GLBW from EuroCypria and SE-RHS from Viking.
In 2010, they brought in 6 aircraft, all from Thomson : C-FRZG, C-FRZJ, C-FRZB, C-FDZD, C-FDZE and C-FDZF.
In 2011, the explosion, they brought in 18 aircraft. I will spare you the registrations.
This year, they are bringing in 21 aircraft.

Since it was founded, Sunwing imported a grand total of 62 temporary aircraft and crew.