A few minutes of your time

[BE20 Driver]

I know some of you are quite critical of Gilles and what he is doing. I'm sure those who are critical of him are also looking to the recent announcement from AT and saying your backyard isn't clean so why pick on Sunwing and Canjet. Maybe those who are so critical of Gilles are all captains with enough seniority to survive a few storms. I have no idea.

Getting pilots together to support a cause seems to be like herding cats. If you won't think of the greater good, think of yourselves. I had way more time than CJ and SWG wanted. I exceeded all of their requirements, save one. I applied before during and after the posts came out. I had internal recommendations at one of the airlines. I could have started immediately as the timing worked out perfectly for the slowdown of the summer season where I was working. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get an interview at either company. You can speculate as to why I didn't get an interview. I'll assume it was my lack of an NG rating where a qualified foreign pilot was easier to hire. This is why I started looking at what it would actually take to get a rating.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. There are probably a hundred guys like me out there. If I wasn't qualified at 5000 hours, what makes me more qualified at 6000? 7000? Are we going the way of Europe where we will have to start buying TR's just to get a job? Airlines come and go. What happens if you are already at an airline that goes gills up and you have the "wrong" rating?

All of this rant is to say that we can't sit back and let one person fight the good fight for all of us. It's pretty easy for TC or HRSDC to ignore one person. Gilles is doing the hard work and researching the CARS, labour code etc. I'm only suggesting that if we all took a few minutes to send an email, regular post letter, contact an MP/journalist etc. the powers that be might pay more attention. I'm not saying we should all band together and picket the local canjet check in counter, just do what we do best - whine and complain. Just do it outside of these boards and get some attention on this issue before it gets bigger. What's the worst it will cost you, a few minutes of your time?

[toelessjoe]

I know some of you are quite critical of Gilles and what he is doing. I'm sure those who are critical of him are also looking to the recent announcement from AT and saying your backyard isn't clean so why pick on Sunwing and Canjet. Maybe those who are so critical of Gilles are all captains with enough seniority to survive a few storms. I have no idea.

Getting pilots together to support a cause seems to be like herding cats. If you won't think of the greater good, think of yourselves. I had way more time than CJ and SWG wanted. I exceeded all of their requirements, save one. I applied before during and after the posts came out. I had internal recommendations at one of the airlines. I could have started immediately as the timing worked out perfectly for the slowdown of the summer season where I was working. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get an interview at either company. You can speculate as to why I didn't get an interview. I'll assume it was my lack of an NG rating where a qualified foreign pilot was easier to hire. This is why I started looking at what it would actually take to get a rating.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. There are probably a hundred guys like me out there. If I wasn't qualified at 5000 hours, what makes me more qualified at 6000? 7000? Are we going the way of Europe where we will have to start buying TR's just to get a job? Airlines come and go. What happens if you are already at an airline that goes gills up and you have the "wrong" rating?

All of this rant is to say that we can't sit back and let one person fight the good fight for all of us. It's pretty easy for TC or HRSDC to ignore one person. Gilles is doing the hard work and researching the CARS, labour code etc. I'm only suggesting that if we all took a few minutes to send an email, regular post letter, contact an MP/journalist etc. the powers that be might pay more attention. I'm not saying we should all band together and picket the local canjet check in counter, just do what we do best - whine and complain. Just do it outside of these boards and get some attention on this issue before it gets bigger. What's the worst it will cost you, a few minutes of your time?

We seem to have something in common. resume walked in not once but three times to CJ - by captains who have been there a while. Could have started immediately do to season being over. Over six thousand hours, glass time, bagloads of captain turbine time etc etc and not so much as a call for an interview. Sour grapes? Maybe. But to hear how there are no Canadian pilots for the job while having to drive by that sign saying "We're from here" (gone now) does feel a little bit ballsack-kicky to me every now and then. And no, I'm not slamming anyone who works there or the company itself for that matter. It's our government who keeps letting them do it. Keep up the good fight Gilles.

Cheers,


-Toeless.

[altiplano]

+1 everyone should write ministers responsible and their MP. Put pressure on... one letter doesn't get a look, a shitload gets something done though... bombard these fuckers and let them know we won't continue to stand by.

jason.kenney@parl.gc.ca

diane.finley@parl.gc.ca

[altiplano]

... and just to be clear for the crazies on this board, I mean bombard them with letters.

[razorblade]

... and just to be clear for the crazies on this board, I mean bombard them with letters.

[slowstream]

I know some of you are quite critical of Gilles and what he is doing. I'm sure those who are critical of him are also looking to the recent announcement from AT and saying your backyard isn't clean so why pick on Sunwing and Canjet. Maybe those who are so critical of Gilles are all captains with enough seniority to survive a few storms. I have no idea.

Getting pilots together to support a cause seems to be like herding cats. If you won't think of the greater good, think of yourselves. I had way more time than CJ and SWG wanted. I exceeded all of their requirements, save one. I applied before during and after the posts came out. I had internal recommendations at one of the airlines. I could have started immediately as the timing worked out perfectly for the slowdown of the summer season where I was working. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get an interview at either company. You can speculate as to why I didn't get an interview. I'll assume it was my lack of an NG rating where a qualified foreign pilot was easier to hire. This is why I started looking at what it would actually take to get a rating.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. There are probably a hundred guys like me out there. If I wasn't qualified at 5000 hours, what makes me more qualified at 6000? 7000? Are we going the way of Europe where we will have to start buying TR's just to get a job? Airlines come and go. What happens if you are already at an airline that goes gills up and you have the "wrong" rating?

All of this rant is to say that we can't sit back and let one person fight the good fight for all of us. It's pretty easy for TC or HRSDC to ignore one person. Gilles is doing the hard work and researching the CARS, labour code etc. I'm only suggesting that if we all took a few minutes to send an email, regular post letter, contact an MP/journalist etc. the powers that be might pay more attention. I'm not saying we should all band together and picket the local canjet check in counter, just do what we do best - whine and complain. Just do it outside of these boards and get some attention on this issue before it gets bigger. What's the worst it will cost you, a few minutes of your time?

+1

Out of work for 3 months now and a family of four to feed and take care of.

7000 hrs, a B737 rating, 12 month current, experienced and I couldn't get an interview either and that was with a internal recommends also!

So is there something wrong here? Something is definitely not right, but thats just my two cents

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I know some of you are quite critical of Gilles and what he is doing. I'm sure those who are critical of him are also looking to the recent announcement from AT and saying your backyard isn't clean so why pick on Sunwing and Canjet. Maybe those who are so critical of Gilles are all captains with enough seniority to survive a few storms. I have no idea.

Getting pilots together to support a cause seems to be like herding cats. If you won't think of the greater good, think of yourselves. I had way more time than CJ and SWG wanted. I exceeded all of their requirements, save one. I applied before during and after the posts came out. I had internal recommendations at one of the airlines. I could have started immediately as the timing worked out perfectly for the slowdown of the summer season where I was working. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get an interview at either company. You can speculate as to why I didn't get an interview. I'll assume it was my lack of an NG rating where a qualified foreign pilot was easier to hire. This is why I started looking at what it would actually take to get a rating.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. There are probably a hundred guys like me out there. If I wasn't qualified at 5000 hours, what makes me more qualified at 6000? 7000? Are we going the way of Europe where we will have to start buying TR's just to get a job? Airlines come and go. What happens if you are already at an airline that goes gills up and you have the "wrong" rating?

All of this rant is to say that we can't sit back and let one person fight the good fight for all of us. It's pretty easy for TC or HRSDC to ignore one person. Gilles is doing the hard work and researching the CARS, labour code etc. I'm only suggesting that if we all took a few minutes to send an email, regular post letter, contact an MP/journalist etc. the powers that be might pay more attention. I'm not saying we should all band together and picket the local canjet check in counter, just do what we do best - whine and complain. Just do it outside of these boards and get some attention on this issue before it gets bigger. What's the worst it will cost you, a few minutes of your time?

+1

Out of work for 3 months now and a family of four to feed and take care of.

7000 hrs, a B737 rating, 12 month current, experienced and I couldn't get an interview either and that was with a internal recommends also!

So is there something wrong here? Something is definitely not right, but thats just my two cents

What do you think your chances of getting an interview would have been if they did not have this open ended access to unlimited numbers of foreign pilots ?

[whipline]

Sorry about your luck guys/girls. Sunwing interviewed just under 100 pilots. They were offering a 15,000 bonus if you were type rated. Something doesn't add up.

[toelessjoe]

Sorry about your luck guys/girls. Sunwing interviewed just under 100 pilots. They were offering a 15,000 bonus if you were type rated. Something doesn't add up.

In my case I was specifically targeting Canjet, not Sunwing (Maritimer and all that . As for a type rated pilot not getting an interview, wtf?? THAT can't be kosher.

- Toeless.

[slowstream]

I know some of you are quite critical of Gilles and what he is doing. I'm sure those who are critical of him are also looking to the recent announcement from AT and saying your backyard isn't clean so why pick on Sunwing and Canjet. Maybe those who are so critical of Gilles are all captains with enough seniority to survive a few storms. I have no idea.

Getting pilots together to support a cause seems to be like herding cats. If you won't think of the greater good, think of yourselves. I had way more time than CJ and SWG wanted. I exceeded all of their requirements, save one. I applied before during and after the posts came out. I had internal recommendations at one of the airlines. I could have started immediately as the timing worked out perfectly for the slowdown of the summer season where I was working. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get an interview at either company. You can speculate as to why I didn't get an interview. I'll assume it was my lack of an NG rating where a qualified foreign pilot was easier to hire. This is why I started looking at what it would actually take to get a rating.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. There are probably a hundred guys like me out there. If I wasn't qualified at 5000 hours, what makes me more qualified at 6000? 7000? Are we going the way of Europe where we will have to start buying TR's just to get a job? Airlines come and go. What happens if you are already at an airline that goes gills up and you have the "wrong" rating?

All of this rant is to say that we can't sit back and let one person fight the good fight for all of us. It's pretty easy for TC or HRSDC to ignore one person. Gilles is doing the hard work and researching the CARS, labour code etc. I'm only suggesting that if we all took a few minutes to send an email, regular post letter, contact an MP/journalist etc. the powers that be might pay more attention. I'm not saying we should all band together and picket the local canjet check in counter, just do what we do best - whine and complain. Just do it outside of these boards and get some attention on this issue before it gets bigger. What's the worst it will cost you, a few minutes of your time?

+1

Out of work for 3 months now and a family of four to feed and take care of.

7000 hrs, a B737 rating, 12 month current, experienced and I couldn't get an interview either and that was with a internal recommends also!

So is there something wrong here? Something is definitely not right, but thats just my two cents

What do you think your chances of getting an interview would have been if they did not have this open ended access to unlimited numbers of foreign pilots ?

Gilles,
You know honestly, I don't know, a part of me wants to say "yeah, I sure would have stood a better chance", but how do you prove that?

I do know that its NOT right bringing in foreign workers when we have highly qualified and experienced pilots who need the work. I am also seeing many more countries not allowing foreign pilots to come in and take away jobs of their nationals and I truly respect that and something that I think Canada has to do! In my mind the challenge comes in when as a country you don't have a pool of national pilots or people who even come close to meeting the requirements. With that in mind it opens up a array of arguments as to why or why not to bring in foreign workers, but clearly Canada does not fall into that category! That situation in my opinion, is usually third world countries.


Yeah there is something not right here! 7000 hours, 737 typed and experienced with a no accidents or violations and a good record and I couldn't even score an interview with FOUR different 737 operators that were advertising for pilots over the past couple of months!!! Yeah something is rotten here.

[GRK]

I see the RBC was in the news recently regarding the very thing Gilles has been fighting and the press and the public exploded in fury...I guess when you try to steal someones wallet (figuratively speaking) this is what you get? Why is it that the reaction to the foreign pilot issue is met with seeming indifference by the flying public, yet they howl with anger when a bank even is only thinking of doing it? Where does this fight need to go to get the same kind of attention being drawn by the RBC? Ok...back to the thread...
GRK

[Prairie Chicken]

As I said on a similar thread regarding letters to TC, but apparently pertinent here too:

It won't work. All complaints about a single issue would be wrapped into one case and investigated--or not--as one case. You might have some traction for a short time by calling or sending letters to various Enforcement offices and inspectors across the country--but as soon as they clued into what was happening they'd role them all into a single case anyway.

On a more positive note, are you listening to the CBC reporting of the foreign worker at RBC? CBC are looking for more examples of foreign workers taking Canadian jobs, and AMEs have already been mentioned but not pilots. If you haven't already ... make some noise while the RBC issue is hot.

[BE20 Driver]

As I said on a similar thread regarding letters to TC, but apparently pertinent here too:

It won't work. All complaints about a single issue would be wrapped into one case and investigated--or not--as one case. You might have some traction for a short time by calling or sending letters to various Enforcement offices and inspectors across the country--but as soon as they clued into what was happening they'd role them all into a single case anyway.

On a more positive note, are you listening to the CBC reporting of the foreign worker at RBC? CBC are looking for more examples of foreign workers taking Canadian jobs, and AMEs have already been mentioned but not pilots. If you haven't already ... make some noise while the RBC issue is hot.

I didn't start this discussion looking for a pity party. I have no idea why my resume wasn't looked at. Maybe they didn't like the font I used. Obviously they found people more qualified than me. Some clearly more qualified people were overlooked in favour of the people who were hired for the winter.

My point here is that this issue is hot right now. We need to jump on this band wagon and let the press and politicians know that pilots are affected by this very issue. Make some noise. Email your MP. Email CBC, National Post, Globe and Mail, Shaw cable, APTN. They're all running stories about this right now and looking for other examples of where this is happening. CBC received 700 emails, mostly from bank employees when they ran their story today. If 100 came from pilots, we could get some attention too.

Getting the word out by emailing a bunch of people will only take a few minutes of your time. By the way, politicians are obligated to respond. It'll take a while but they will write back.

[pelmet]

We seem to have something in common. resume walked in not once but three times to CJ - by captains who have been there a while. Could have started immediately do to season being over. Over six thousand hours, glass time, bagloads of captain turbine time etc etc and not so much as a call for an interview. Sour grapes? Maybe. But to hear how there are no Canadian pilots for the job while having to drive by that sign saying "We're from here" (gone now) does feel a little bit ballsack-kicky to me every now and then. And no, I'm not slamming anyone who works there or the company itself for that matter. It's our government who keeps letting them do it. Keep up the good fight Gilles.

Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.

[slowstream]

[/quote]
Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.[/quote]

First off - I am qualified, so the airlines investment in me would be minimal. If you want to refer to this in context of a contract, ROI, return on investment it will be a long argument with no one winning. Arguably, on a whole there have been hundreds more pilots who made a investment and a commitment to an airline only to be laid-off, than the other way around. I personally have several of those hats, but as someone pointed out this isn't my pity-party.

Second - In your question you ask for honesty, but yet your question is a bit of a oxymoron. I have a family to support I will take what job I have to in order to support them. My first choice would be always to take a job where I would not face a lay-off; that failing I will accept what I have to in order to survive. This is what someone wrote about earlier about when (sorry if I got this wrong) some of these people need to get out of their ivory towers and see the real world.

Thirdly - If I knew that there would be an annual lay-off I could plan for it to offset the hardship, would I leave to join another airline where I would not have to face an annual lay-off, honestly yes. My first choice as I suspect every other pilot would be to have a secure, permanent, full-time employment!

To use a statement asking for honesty to cast judgement or question a persons integrity is being shortsighted and a little misleading; sorry if I misinterpreted your intention but honestly thats how it came across. As my wife routinely points out to me that she and our family are at the mercy of my career, just as I am at the mercy of these airlines. We as pilots did not create these business models and practices but we are at the mercy of these airlines, national and world economics and HONESTLY, its really horrible for many! So lets not throw the word "honesty" into the mix, its not comparing circumstances equally or fairly.

In my humble opinion airlines like so many other big companies like to throw out phrases such as "the cost of doing business", "don't yell at us, we're just passing along the extra costs or what we've been forced to deal with" I believe that too many (not all) companies are void of integrity and greed is the sole driving force. Will they be honest with that? Its easy and cheap to throw out statements, like "we're a family here" and do some small acts to show humanity and integrity to gain some good PR but the bottom line is that the companies want to increase profits, increase margins every year and be accountable to the investors and I don't think they give a dam how they do it or who they hurt in the process!

[Krimson]

Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.

What a stupid question!
We're going to hire you and fire you and expect for you to just wait at our mercy for a phone call to come back?

Can you imagine this in ANY other industry? I.e.: You work for a law firm. "We're going to lay you off, you'll be unemployed. We hope you don't go homeless over the summer. If you're even thinking of stepping in a court room during this time, we will not hire you."

Why does this seem even remotely okay in aviation? You expect to collect no income for months because one company invested in training their own staff?

[BE20 Driver]

[/quote]
Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.[/quote]

I can only speak for myself. I was willing to commit to a few years to make it worthwhile for everyone involved. The holiday season lined up almost perfectly with the slow season at my 704 gig. I would have gladly taken an LOA (and with approval from management) from the summer job to work for either airline.

I am a man of my word but I would have been just as happy to formalize an agreement to work a few winters. I took a 6 month contract at a company and stayed for 18 months on a handshake agreement. I did not apply for the current openings because I am under an agreement at my current company. I am really hoping that all of this gets sorted out by the fall time which coincides with the end of my agreement with my company. Maybe this winter is the year for me.

[JAHinYYC]

Can you imagine this in ANY other industry? I.e.: You work for a law firm. "We're going to lay you off, you'll be unemployed. We hope you don't go homeless over the summer. If you're even thinking of stepping in a court room during this time, we will not hire you."

Why does this seem even remotely okay in aviation? You expect to collect no income for months because one company invested in training their own staff?

Not to be a stickler, but this is exactly what happened to Ontario lawyers in the year that I articled. Our jobs all started on September 1 and finished on June 30. We were not called to the bar until October 1. Between July 1 and September 30th we could not work as lawyers or as articling students. I collected some EI and waited tables. Long dry spell.

Doesn't make it right, just that it isn't unprecidented.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Can you imagine this in ANY other industry? I.e.: You work for a law firm. "We're going to lay you off, you'll be unemployed. We hope you don't go homeless over the summer. If you're even thinking of stepping in a court room during this time, we will not hire you."

Why does this seem even remotely okay in aviation? You expect to collect no income for months because one company invested in training their own staff?

Not to be a stickler, but this is exactly what happened to Ontario lawyers in the year that I articled. Our jobs all started on September 1 and finished on June 30. We were not called to the bar until October 1. Between July 1 and September 30th we could not work as lawyers or as articling students. I collected some EI and waited tables. Long dry spell.

Doesn't make it right, just that it isn't unprecidented.

But you weren't waiting on tables while British lawyers, brought in as TFW were in the Canadian courthouses instead of you.

[JTF01]

7500+ hours, B737 rating (as well as another jet type rating), have flown 3 airliners + numerous smaller ones, adequate turbine PIC time, airline time, Bachelors degree, bilingual, have been applying to CanJet and Sunwing since 2010 and have not even been invited to an interview.

Headed back to Afghanistan on Wednesday.

What does it take to be considered for a job in the homeland? I just would love the chance to interview for a job in Canada.

JTF01

[toelessjoe]

We seem to have something in common. resume walked in not once but three times to CJ - by captains who have been there a while. Could have started immediately do to season being over. Over six thousand hours, glass time, bagloads of captain turbine time etc etc and not so much as a call for an interview. Sour grapes? Maybe. But to hear how there are no Canadian pilots for the job while having to drive by that sign saying "We're from here" (gone now) does feel a little bit ballsack-kicky to me every now and then. And no, I'm not slamming anyone who works there or the company itself for that matter. It's our government who keeps letting them do it. Keep up the good fight Gilles.

Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.

Of course I would. I've survived with winters off for a decade, pretty sure I could handle seeing what a summer actually looks like from a beach and not a Beechcraft (see what I did there? ). As I mentioned I'm from the Maritimes. Working for a YHZ based company would have suited my lifestyle for the duration of my career (this was back when you stood a reasonable chance of actually being based there rather than Montreal). Frankly I'd have burned my resume. I have no problem losing out to someone who is more experienced than myself (I'd assume someone type rated would go to the head of the class), however to not even be considered is somewhat of a hard pill to swallow.

- Toeless.

[slowstream]

7500+ hours, B737 rating (as well as another jet type rating), have flown 3 airliners + numerous smaller ones, adequate turbine PIC time, airline time, Bachelors degree, bilingual, have been applying to CanJet and Sunwing since 2010 and have not even been invited to an interview.

Headed back to Afghanistan on Wednesday.

What does it take to be considered for a job in the homeland? I just would love the chance to interview for a job in Canada.

JTF01

Plus 1

I would like to know that one too

[pelmet]

Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.

What a stupid question!
We're going to hire you and fire you and expect for you to just wait at our mercy for a phone call to come back?

Can you imagine this in ANY other industry? I.e.: You work for a law firm. "We're going to lay you off, you'll be unemployed. We hope you don't go homeless over the summer. If you're even thinking of stepping in a court room during this time, we will not hire you."

Why does this seem even remotely okay in aviation? You expect to collect no income for months because one company invested in training their own staff?

Actually, that was the most important question to be asked aside from trying to ensure that your newhire is a good all round pilot. Slowstream and Krimson....we regret to inform you that we do not have space available for you in our company and wish you the best in your career. Toelessjoe.....Welcome to our airline....your groundschool date will be sent to you shortly.

By the way....it seems to be quite normal and accepted in the industry for the firebomber guys. Except Sunwing guys can get the summer off instead of the winter. Cool. In fact it is hard to break into that firefighting industry. Of course if you don't like it, just like the firebombing industry...don't apply there and apply somewhere else and hold out for one of the majority of other carriers in this country that employ year round. And it does cost to bring even a type rated guy into a new company. Different SOP's, all the other stuff that every other new pilot needs.

[toelessjoe]

Here is the question they want to know from you as a supposedly qualified pilot. After they invest all this money in you, will you leave for another company or be willing to work for them for several years with layoffs for the first three summers. Be honest in your answer.

What a stupid question!
We're going to hire you and fire you and expect for you to just wait at our mercy for a phone call to come back?

Can you imagine this in ANY other industry? I.e.: You work for a law firm. "We're going to lay you off, you'll be unemployed. We hope you don't go homeless over the summer. If you're even thinking of stepping in a court room during this time, we will not hire you."

Why does this seem even remotely okay in aviation? You expect to collect no income for months because one company invested in training their own staff?

Actually, that was the most important question to be asked aside from trying to ensure that your newhire is a good all round pilot. Slowstream and Krimson....we regret to inform you that we do not have space available for you in our company and wish you the best in your career. Toelessjoe.....Welcome to our airline....your groundschool date will be sent to you shortly.
By the way....it seems to be quite normal and accepted in the industry for the firebomber guys. Except Sunwing guys can get the summer off instead of the winter. Cool. In fact it is hard to break into that firefighting industry. Of course if you don't like it, just like the firebombing industry...don't apply there and apply somewhere else and hold out for one of the majority of other carriers in this country that employ year round. And it does cost to bring even a type rated guy into a new company. Different SOP's, all the other stuff that every other new pilot needs.

Something must be wrong with your/my computer, I checked my pm's and no start dates.

-Toeless.

[North Shore]

By the way....it seems to be quite normal and accepted in the industry for the firebomber guys. Except Sunwing guys can get the summer off instead of the winter. Cool. In fact it is hard to break into that firefighting industry. Of course if you don't like it, just like the firebombing industry.

You're missing a key point, there, pelmet. On the firefighting side, we're generally regarded as an asset to the company, so we're paid well enough that we can manage to survive the off season without having to go and work elsewhere. That way, we are more likely to come back the next summer, saving on training costs, and keeping the level of institutional knowledge higher.