@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Float Rating in Ontario

[Dagwood]

Will you know what to do the first time this happens? What do you save? Not taught in any float rating!

Like any aviation accident, it is usually a chain of errors. This probably started by not tying the plane/boat to the dock before unloading, or the wind/current is stronger than the pilot thought. Hopefully the company will do a thorough incident investigation and use SMS, CRM, SOPs, Checklists, and better training so it won't happen again. Next time he might lose the beer.

[Beefitarian]

Trick question, the boat is bumped up against the post it's not going anywhere. He is using his proceedure.

[MIQ]

I'm sorry if this question has already been answered but after 1 1/2 pages of pointless discussion I stopped reading every single post.
What are the best flight schools to do your float rating in Ontario?

[tractor747]

Any operator certified by TC should be good enough.

Since when did one have to be certified by TC to train for sea plane ratings?

I thought anyone with a commercial license a sea plane rating and fifty hours on sea planes could offer sea plane rating training.

Do you also need to operate out of a transport canada registered water aerodrome or any body of water will do? Can i for example operate out of city harbor but not designated as a water aerodrome and train/charter/etc.

[PilotDAR]

Your question contains a mixed question...

water aerodrome and train/charter/etc

"train/charter/etc" implies to me an operating certificate, which might require a water aerodrome (not my area of expertise, so get the facts on that).

If I as a CPL with the required float qualification am entitled to give a float rating, as a non commercial activity, I very much doubt that I need a water aerodrome to do it. I certainly did not get my float rating at a water aerodrome...

Before you launch into any "ventures" though, I would that you assure that you are compliant with TC regulations with much more certainty than is possible on AvCanada!

[tractor747]

Your question contains a mixed question...

water aerodrome and train/charter/etc

"train/charter/etc" implies to me an operating certificate, which might require a water aerodrome (not my area of expertise, so get the facts on that).

If I as a CPL with the required float qualification am entitled to give a float rating, as a non commercial activity, I very much doubt that I need a water aerodrome to do it. I certainly did not get my float rating at a water aerodrome...

Before you launch into any "ventures" though, I would that you assure that you are compliant with TC regulations with much more certainty than is possible on AvCanada!

I agree 100%, the trouble is I can't find it on the TC site, so confusing or I can't figure it out.

thanks for the info, you are right.

[PilotDAR]

so confusing or I can't figure it out.

Not all of TC's exams are multiple choice, in an intimidating room....

[Pavese]

I'm sorry if this question has already been answered but after 1 1/2 pages of pointless discussion I stopped reading every single post.
What are the best flight schools to do your float rating in Ontario?

You know, 3 pages later, it's interesting that none of the posters can name anyone who teaches float flying in Ontario.

(I have an excuse, I don't live in Ontario. With one E-mail I could find a few names though....)

D

[PilotDAR]

it's interesting that none of the posters can name anyone who teaches float flying in Ontario

Sorry, I did not read through all three pages, and did not know that the questions was still outstanding.

Lake Country Airways, at Lake St. John Airport near Orillia. Excellent outfit.

[High Flyin]

I'm sorry if this question has already been answered but after 1 1/2 pages of pointless discussion I stopped reading every single post.
What are the best flight schools to do your float rating in Ontario?

You know, 3 pages later, it's interesting that none of the posters can name anyone who teaches float flying in Ontario.

(I have an excuse, I don't live in Ontario. With one E-mail I could find a few names though....)

D

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... neTraining

Done.

[Pavese]

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... neTraining

Done.

Sorry, I did not read through all three pages, and did not know that the questions was still outstanding.

Lake Country Airways, at Lake St. John Airport near Orillia. Excellent outfit.

Good Job guys!

While we're at it, how can a flight school in Gander (Pop 11,000) keep 3 150s, 9 152s, 3 float planes and a twin busy? (http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... +Training)

D

[High Flyin]

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... neTraining

Done.

Sorry, I did not read through all three pages, and did not know that the questions was still outstanding.

Lake Country Airways, at Lake St. John Airport near Orillia. Excellent outfit.

Good Job guys!

While we're at it, how can a flight school in Gander (Pop 11,000) keep 3 150s, 9 152s, 3 float planes and a twin busy? (http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... +Training)

D

Gander Flight Training has quite an expansive international program going. That's likely how.

[Scout44]

I don't have a lot of float experience, but I'm sure quality instruction can be found at many of the mentioned places in Ontario. As was mentioned by someone else, just make sure your solo time will be true solo as sole occupant, and not pretend solo with the instructor ghost flying beside you.

I don't have a strong opinion on the issue of requiring a flight test or additional hours for the rating because I'd say the system is alright as-is. However, I think more emphasis on egress training would be beneficial. I went and did Bry the Dunker Guy's course before my rating in 2007, and it was worth every dollar. When you get dunked and inverted in a nice luke-warm pool and realize what's involved in getting out in that environment, it really opens your eyes as to what you will be up against in a real scenario, in cold water, etc. I've recommended this to anyone who's ever asked me about float training since. Good for wheeled pilots too if you're flying over water frequently.

On the issue that Grantmac brought up about insuring 7 hour wonders... I don't know about commercial operators, but in 2007 I was insured on a friend's privately-registered C-170 with a whopping 10 hours total time on floats! There was a bit of a premium increase, but it's not as if they were refusing me, or requiring additional experience.

[Cat Driver]

I don't have a lot of float experience, but I'm sure quality instruction can be found at many of the mentioned places in Ontario. As was mentioned by someone else, just make sure your solo time will be true solo as sole occupant, and not pretend solo with the instructor ghost flying beside you.

The five take offs and landings solo for the sea plane rating is one of the most idiotic of TC's requirements.

However if you are a Canadian I guess it is not a problem because the system turns out obedient sheep that seldom ever not jump just like the sheep in front.

[crazy_aviator]

Those 5 landings are nerve wracking for the instructor. Most instructors would have "qualified" the student PRIOR to releasing him for solo. The same with a TD check-out, no instructor is going to let the student go solo UNLESS the instructor felt that they were safe and had learned the required basics to survive the circuit. Seeing the pathetic abilities for MOST float pilots to even sucessfully "dock" the aircraft, leads me to think that either the instructors are ill equipped, no one has ever handled a BOAT or the standards in the float rating industry are quite low ! My students have spent MORE time on the water handling the A/C and docking than in the circuit BTW, 7 hrs is the TC MINIMUM, it may take 12+ to solo the student AND the instructor MUST be confident the student wont break the plane (or others) at the busy float dock/ramp

[Cat Driver]

The five solo take offs and landings should be replaced with a check ride with an independent flight test examiner.

Or TC should require Five solo flights for the multi engine rating and five solo flights in IMC for the instrument rating

[crazy_aviator]

Soo true Cat! My IR in CAVOK could never prepare me for single pilot IMC. An apprentice doesnt sign off an Aircraft until a couple years on the job, neither should a fresh minted IFR pilot carry pax for hire or otherwise until spending time in the clag solo

[Skyhunter]

So, I have a question for all you need millions of hours training types... you ever heard of wilbur and orville? Would any of you have been the first to try flying? If no one had yet invented a float plane, and someone said hey I have an idea, lets strap these pontoons to the bottom of a plane and try it, would you give it a go? I would give it a go personally. Mind you I also jumped my bicycle from a home made ramp without a helmet when I was kid without having training prior. Learned to drive a motorcycle (750 V4 sabre for my first) without any "training."

I did my float rating 24 years ago. Haven't used it since. I hope to do some again in the next few years, if I am lucky in a plane I build myself. Am I going to go get hours of training... planning only on the minimum the insurance company will require. Pretty sure I can figure the rest out with time and experience, keeping things simple at first and trying harder stuff as get some experience. Oh and those hours the insurance company wants, I will get them as cheap as I can cause I am not loaded.

It is a good thing the airplane is already invented. I don't think there are many people in todays society that would dare try and fly one if it wasn't and they couldn't get 1000's of hours of training.

and just so you know I am not completely of my rocker, yes, I do believe in training where required, but sometimes I think the pendulum has swung so far into the over safe side of society it is too much.


There,,, flame away, but I feel better for ranting.

[Skyhunter]

Absolutely Beefrick. You should, nay, must, take the course...It is definitely a one upper for inclusion in the old resume. Walking is such an important skill needed for a pilot that I really can not understand why there has not been a demand by the industry on TC to regulate it.. At least minimum hours, and a written and practical test. Or maybe TC should have played a leadership role by at least setting some standards on walking and how to intigrate it into a company SMS and CRM program.. Maybe a cute cartoon in the next issue of Flight Safety showing a pilot at Blackeye bumping into something and the necessary and appropriate response....

CWO....(Controlled walking into objects), is a real and serious problem in aviaition. Right now, all over the world, pilots are walking into the trailing edges of wings. Walking under refueling ladders. Stumbling and falling after a hard duty day...I know,, I was one of them.
I think if we get together and demand more regulations and stringent testing requirements we can lower the number of potentially fatal incidents. CWO incidents will never be entirely eliminated but we should all strive to do our part to make that the goal.


And now back onto topic. How is it that we have come to a place in aviaiton where a pilot is deeemd, without any experience or training, in a particular area, to know more about how to accomplish it than TC or the reams of experienced and trained pilots, as well as the trainers? There is something wrong with this approach. It almost feels that when we are trying to get it straight from the horses mouth, we end up getting our advice from the wrong end.

Literally thousands of float pilots have undertaken training and obtained the rating over the years. What has changed, or was the training so inferior that we simply must address the problem?

Your forgetting the equally troubling subject of Controlled Walking Off Objects (CWOO). This is keenly felt in the already substandard float segment of general aviation, just think of the number of ruined mobile phones and wallets. This represents countless tens of dollars of lost revenue for the companies employing workers without the correctly training in handling themselves while on the dock.

Back to seriousness:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe any insurance company will underwrite you with 7hrs on floats. Not for commercial or private operations. Doesn't that tell you just how unsafe someone is with that little level of experience.
Sure if you get hired into a business they should train you to a level where both they and their underwriter are comfortable with your competence. But what about the recreational float flyer, that 7hr float course is a lot more then just a resume item to them; it is the legal requirement to allow operating a float equipped aircraft.
I don't think you could safely teach someone how to operate a boat in 7hrs, let alone one that flys.

-Grant

Really Grant, I think most of use that grew up near a lake and liked to fish taught ourselves how to drive a boat. Wasn't rocket science.

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't think it would matter how many hours
of training these people got:

[PilotDAR]

if I am lucky in a plane I build myself. Am I going to go get hours of training... planning only on the minimum the insurance company will require. Pretty sure I can figure the rest out with time and experience, keeping things simple at first and trying harder stuff as get some experience.

It is said that you start out with a full bag of luck, and an empty bag of experience, and the trick is to fill the bag of experience faster than you empty the bag of luck.

In my opinion, the very modest requirements for seaplane skills demonstration are an inadequate attempt to assure that the new float pilot has had some exposure to differing conditions. Yes, most pilots can go and take the float training in a few days, and build those skills in similar conditions, and somewhat by rote. The challenge is that much more so that airports, or even the dreaded grass strips, water landings nearly always involve landing "away", where there is less "help" and familiar surroundings. Thus, more opportunity for things to go wrong fast, and much less resource in help. A plane off the side of a runway does not sink or drift away, the way a floatplane with a sunk float will. It's easy to get the landplane from the shoulder of the runway to "safety". Much more so than the half submerged plane 10 or more miles from a road.

Yes, working up from simple to harder is excellent, as long as one recognizes the "harder" and succeeds in avoiding it for a while. Maybe not as easy as it sounds. In my opinion, there is much more need for qualified mentoring in float flying than landplane flying. That translates to the new floatplane pilot should be allocating the time to learn more in a training/mentoring environment, not just the insurance minimums.

[Colonel Sanders]

It's not just floats. All other licences and ratings
are just licenses to learn (PPL, IFR, CPL, etc).

New class 4 instructors are so shaky they can
only teach at an FTU under direct supervision of
a senior instructor until they get at least 100 hrs
dual given - generally much more than that. I
know class 4 with 500 hrs dual given, still no
class 3 yet.

[Shiny Side Up]

I
know class 4 with 500 hrs dual given, still no
class 3 yet.

I think I was that instructor at one time, which is probable if you a) don't work at a school that does Cadets or foreign students, b) Instruct part time, or c) a combo of both. Getting 3 and three can be somewhat of a luck of the draw, or just how it works. One tends to do a lot of introductory flights, that go no farther from that point, attitudes and movements over and over, and I'd say only 1 in 4 new potentials goes much farther than that. When you're starting out as the new guy, lots of times you end up being the relief instructor as well, who gets to fly only with the other instructor's students when the instructor is sick or otherwise away, until you get a few of your own that is.

[Colonel Sanders]

Yeah, there's a certain amount of politics and luck involved
in getting the "3 and 3" counters in for the class 4 to class 3.

Another guy I know, around 50, started flying privately 30
years ago. Still a class 4 instructor after over 5 years of
steady part-time instructing. I'm not sure he really needs
a lot of supervision, but ok.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well there's class 4s and then there's class 4s if you know what I mean. There's some class ones, twos and threes out there that shouldn't be left unsupervised either. I few should probably have to wear helmets out in public. Some people can be left with responsibility and some can't, a trait they developed long before they became an instructor.