YOW Feb 9

[corroded_camshaft]

I'd be shocked if i haven't missed one.

I think it was a Cherokee, that attempted take off at Rockcliffe with the cowl plugs still inserted. Over the summer.

Certainly a lot of accidents and incidents in the last little while.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Looks like Cat and I were both correct. Both engines were failed.

The Ottawa Flying Club Beech BE76 aircraft (registration C-FDMO) was on a local VFR flight from Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (CYOW). The pilot of C-FDMO declared PAN due to one engine failure 7 NM NW CYOW. At 2.5 NM W CYOW, the pilot advised losing the second engine. The aircraft proceeded for a forced landing 2 NM W CYOW. Emergency services, TSB, CACO, YTR RCC advised. No reported injuries.

CADOR

[pelmet]

Never flown a Duchess (loads of time in Piper's doppelgänger) but it shouldn't have trouble maintaining altitude on one good engine down low on a cold day, should it?

Should be OK. I had an instructor on the Westair machine feather one on me once while on approach to due to his mistaken idea of having an engine problem. Just the two of us on an evening training flight. We climbed out slowly and proceeded back to Carp. But, it was a good reminder that there is a significant loss of performance by being just a few knots off of VYSE. We don't think about it much when all engines are running and whatever speed is uded for climbout, but when you lose 80% of your excess thrust, speed control is critical.

Now if you have two people, cold temps and near sea level density altitude and almost no fuel left, climb performance will be quite good while the operating engine still operates.

[Cat Driver]

I have never been in a Duchess, does it have a complicated fuel management system?

[Colonel Sanders]

one engine failure 7 NM NW CYOW. At 2.5 NM W CYOW,
the pilot advised losing the second engine

Not sure I understand how this is possible. I understand
many pilots won't fly a single at night or over water because
although they fly perfectly, they worry that it is extremely
likely that an engine will fail.

That's why they fly twins. Twins, Basil. But what I don't
understand is how two engines could fail, within a few scant
minutes of each other. The probability of this occurring must
be one in a billion.

[shitdisturber]

one engine failure 7 NM NW CYOW. At 2.5 NM W CYOW,
the pilot advised losing the second engine

Not sure I understand how this is possible. I understand
many pilots won't fly a single at night or over water because
although they fly perfectly, they worry that it is extremely
likely that an engine will fail.

That's why they fly twins. Twins, Basil. But what I don't
understand is how two engines could fail, within a few scant
minutes of each other. The probability of this occurring must
be one in a billion.

Really? The answer should have leapt off the page at you. There's only about three reasons that I can think of off the top of my head for both engines to fail within minutes of each other. The first being, too much air in the tanks. The second being contaminated fuel; and the third being the less obvious, one failed and they cooked the other trying to make it back to YOW.

[photofly]

It's amazing how comic irony can be completely overlooked on an internet forum.

[shitdisturber]

It's amazing how comic irony can be completely overlooked on an internet forum.

Yeah, guilty. I was wondering why CS was being so obtuse. Too little sleep and too much going on with work and family and it slipped right by me.

[photofly]

No harm done .. . I imagine CS thought it was quite funny.

[pelmet]

There's only about three reasons that I can think of off the top of my head for both engines to fail within minutes of each other. The first being, too much air in the tanks. The second being contaminated fuel; and the third being the less obvious, one failed and they cooked the other trying to make it back to YOW.

Oil could be a problem. It has happened more than once where the oil was serviced on engines and on the subsequent flight, multiple engine shutdowns happened with the most famous being the Eastern L-1011 from Miami to the Bahamas(short haul in a widebody jet is very cool). Shut the first one down early due to low oil pressure on descent so they returned toward Miami, then a second and third had low oil pressure but naturally they used them as long as they could before they shutdown resulting in a engineless glide to 4000 feet at which point they got the original engine that had been shut down early restarted and barely made it back to Miami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ai ... Flight_855
http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art10.html

I believe for ETOPS flights, there is a requirement to have different maintenance personnel service each engine to prevent the same guy making the same mistake on multiple engines.

Of course there are those nasty Canada Geese.

[pelmet]

I have never been in a Duchess, does it have a complicated fuel management system?

Going from distant memory....On, Off, and Crossfeed selection for each engine. In other words....normally, you don't move the fuel selectors.

[Aviationtech]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Photo ... story.html



It has returned.

[jg24]

Wow! That's not something you see every day

[pelmet]

Saw that done with a Twin Otter through downtown Yellowknife. Belonged to Max Ward and he had a difficult water landing.

Still plan to go one day to a small town in France called Levignac. They do it with a brand new A-380 fuselage through the narrow streets of the old town.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/05/trave ... 0-levignac

Watch here.......Cool

[Colonel Sanders]

Max Ward ... difficult water landing

That wasn't too long ago, was it?

[pelmet]

Got to be near ten years ago.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Got to be near ten years ago.

A little longer, actually - June 30, 2000 per PPrune: http://www.pprune.org/canada/31215-twot ... knife.html

[righthandman]

Too much air in the tanks?

From what I understand, the incident PIC/instructor theorized that due to several freeze/thaw cycles... there was enough accumulated water in the fuel system (which on the day of the incident, froze)...that both engines were starved of fuel within just a couple of minutes of each other. it's a little scary to think that testing for water in the fuel system would not have this show up. Anyway this is his best guess; I haven't heard any other explanation, as all the obvious reasons were eliminated I believe. So there was fuel, it wasn't contaminated, the handling of the emergency wasn't mismanaged etc. etc.

I think the instructor did an excellent job of essentially gliding to a landing; one prop was totally feathered and the other one had it's engine at very reduced/partial power just prior to touching down in a field that fortunately had a fairly fresh amount of snow fall accumulate the night before I believe.

[5x5]

We have freeze/thaw cycles all the time in all parts of Canada and planes don't fall from the sky. Is Ottawa special somehow?

And if there was freezing in the fuel supply system, how can you say

I haven't heard any other explanation, as all the obvious reasons were eliminated I believe. So there was fuel, it wasn't contaminated, the handling of the emergency wasn't mismanaged etc. etc.

[Colonel Sanders]

accumulated water in the fuel system

First of all, how did the water get into the fuel system?

99% of the time, the water gets into the fuel system
through the filler necks, either through bad gas, or by
being parked outside in the rain, and not bothering to
ever change the o-rings (about a buck each) in the fuel
caps. Don't blame condensation.

And, why didn't people drain the water out of the
fuel system during the preflight? Did it freeze the drains
shut, and they went flying anyways despite not being
able to get anything out of the drains?

Is Ottawa special somehow?

You don't know the half of it.

[righthandman]

We have freeze/thaw cycles all the time in all parts of Canada and planes don't fall from the sky. Is Ottawa special somehow?

And if there was freezing in the fuel supply system, how can you say

I haven't heard any other explanation, as all the obvious reasons were eliminated I believe. So there was fuel, it wasn't contaminated, the handling of the emergency wasn't mismanaged etc. etc.

I try to pick my words carefully when I write things so I can say that:

1. No other of the schools planes experienced or had symptoms of fuel contamination during that general period. That's why it doesn't present itself as the obvious explanation; I could be wrong. And...
2. I know we have freeze/thaw cycles all the time. That's WHY I did say that if it is the cause, it's scary to think that trying to check at the fuel drains (which I am told they did), didn't show up any water apparently.

[righthandman]

accumulated water in the fuel system

First of all, how did the water get into the fuel system?

99% of the time, the water gets into the fuel system
through the filler necks, either through bad gas, or by
being parked outside in the rain, and not bothering to
ever change the o-rings (about a buck each) in the fuel
caps. Don't blame condensation.

And, why didn't people drain the water out of the
fuel system during the preflight? Did it freeze the drains
shut, and they went flying anyways despite not being
able to get anything out of the drains?

That twin was taken in and out of a heated hangar repeatedly; that's all I can tell you for sure. So I guess the pilot of the incident A/C is perhaps blaming condensation?? How the water got there (if it was water) and why it didn't show up when checked for, I can't say; that's WHY I said it is scary if you do all the right things and still experience a problem. Anyway I'm just relaying a possible explanation from the pilot after eavesdropping on a conversation he was having when someone asked him what took place. I haven't heard any other proposed/alternate explanations or definitive answers since then. And that's all I have to say about that.

[Cat Driver]

If an airplane has been parked in a heated hangar for a period of time and there is water in the fuel system and the airplane is then moved outside in very cold weather the water can gradually form ice crystals in the fuel line filters until they are completely plugged with ice.

Draining the fuel at very low temperatures will not get rid of water that was there before you moved the airplane outside because any water will be frozen.

I lost two engines in IMC one night due to ice crystals in the fuel lines, all that saved me was there was a hole in the clouds over an airport below me when the second engine quit allowing me to land without any power.

[righthandman]

If an airplane has been parked in a heated hangar for a period of time and there is water in the fuel system and the airplane is then moved outside in very cold weather the water can gradually form ice crystals in the fuel lines.

Draining the fuel at very low temperatures will not get rid of water that was there before you moved the airplane outside because any water will be frozen.

I lost two engines in IMC one night due to ice crystals in the fuel lines, all that saved me was there was a hole in the clouds over an airport below me when the second engine quit allowing me to land without any power.

OK so thanks for (in a sense) backing me (and the affected pilot) up... on that being a possible explanation.

Oh and the only other Fact I can present is that the "surviving" engine (the one with the feathered prop) was run up after being brought back into maintenance.

[Cat Driver]

OK so thanks for (in a sense) backing me (and the affected pilot) up... on that being a possible explanation.

Sometimes this forum can be of real value to the people who use it.

The biggest problem here is sifting through all the posts and trying to figure out what is factual and what is just plain crap.

The bottom line is the accident in question could very well been ice crystals in the fuel system.