FTU - OC

[624]

To the original poster, here's some food for thought while trying to wade through the bureaucracy of the whole aoc thing and your original question.

You have an ftu-oc. You can do flight training and sight seeing. TC gives you the oc and you do business as usual. CTA doesn't care about you.

You have a 702 oc, thats all. You can do aerial work, no passengers and that's it. No sight seeing allowed with a 702 oc. CTA still doesn't care about you. If your 702 oc says you can do sight seeing on it it is wrong and needs to be amended. The aerial work that you can do will be listed on your aoc.

You have a 703 oc, that's all. You can do aircraft charter including sight seeing, but not aerial work. CTA cares about you now. You need to get a CTA licence to do 703 stuff. Sight seeing is 703 stuff now.

[Cat Driver]

and there's a lot of guys who seem to have no trouble starting up businesses

I did not say Canada was the " most " socialistic country on earth.......I said it is a socialistic dictatorship.

There were two people here in Nanaimo who decided to start a new flying business, one fixed wing and the other one rotary wing.

They both knew me and made it a point to tell me they would have no problem getting their OC's in short order because they knew how to deal with Transport Canada.

The guy with the Cessna 402 went bankrupt after two years waiting for approval.

The other person had more money and sure enough it took over two years for approval.

So don't try and tell me the system is satisfactory......for even a third world country.

[Shiny Side Up]

So don't try and tell me the system is satisfactory......for even a third world country.

Didn't say it was satisfactory, only that it could be much, much worse. There's a lot of improvement that can be made.

Rather fascinatingly, TC considers that person to
be a great guy, at least compared to me and ..

One has to wonder why. And who he knows.

That's because guys like him come here and find that compared to where they're from Canada's system is easy to circumvent. Makes you think huh? Where did he operate before that probably is much worse that makes our system look like a cake walk by comparison? He can probably cook paperwork at a rate that would make your head spin. One of the things that has become very apparent is that our "system" is mostly for keeping us honest folk in line. It has no ability, or even capacity, to handle someone who is working with the intent to break the system. He probably says yes to all their demands, and they think they've done their job protecting the public. I'm reminded of the crooked truck driving school that has been steadily making its way across the country, operated by the same people, started in Vancouver, moved to Edmonton, then Calgary. Caught in each place and then just set up shop again. I predict that Saskatoon will be their next location. Wonder if those guys know the bluebird guys.

[Cat Driver]

Didn't say it was satisfactory, only that it could be much, much worse. There's a lot of improvement that can be made.

You have to help me understand how you think.

Canada is goverened by a system that forbids someone like me to hold an operating certificate because I have a history of compliance with the law and an unblemished record after over fifty years in aviation.

But someone can come to Canada and scam their system and screw over other Canadians using the certificates that TC gives them because they know how to scam the system?

If you are typical of the mind set in Canadian aviation I sure hope I never have to deal with you.

[SRV]

to try and circumvent the standard

But CAR 722 (the applicable Standard) doesn't say
anything about traffic patrol, at least not that I can find.

How can you circumvent something that isn't there?!

I think what you guys are trying to say is that a person
can only go sightseeing once. That doesn't make any
sense, either.

...

You guys really like over-regulation, don't you?

I'm not saying there is a regulatory "traffic patrol standard", I'm saying the "standard" is that the credible operators respect other credible operators and if you try to "circumvent" that standard you are not really a 'guild' member but a chiseller.

[Shiny Side Up]

You have to help me understand how you think.

Canada is goverened by a system that forbids someone like me to hold an operating certificate because I have a history of compliance with the law and an unblemished record after over fifty years in aviation.

But someone can come to Canada and scam their system and screw over other Canadians using the certificates that TC gives them because they know how to scam the system?

Like I said, the Canadian system basically runs to intimidate the typical law abiding citizen, keep them in line. This incidentally isn't much different than anywhere else in the world, its just way more overt, and in many places its also business as usual to circumvent the system - corruption abounds in the world outside our borders - and your typical Canadian is usually pretty naieve as to how this functions, keep in mind your typical Canadian includes our regulators and legislators. In essence you can't get an OC for the same reasons it take me and the Colonel years to get MCMs approved and all that nonsense which our regulators believe is part of them keeping the public safe. Keep in mind the whole set up is mostly designed around keeping the public safe from us aviators. Its not designed to promote business, its not to make anything easy. Like the old safety meeting joke, nobody moves, nobody gets hurt.

I hate to say it, but our system would be very easy to scam. Its entirely run on the honor system. TC always hates when I point this out. They can't come and actually physically police everything we do after all, they depend heavily on us being honest and keeping our own paperwork to hang ourselves with. Personally I've always wondered how long one could run a flight school and turn no props, just cook paper along, crank out licenses. I also wonder how often this is happening in this country now.

Keep in mind I'm pointing out how I perceive the system works from my experience, not how I operate. I dutifully stay within the bounds of the law as they are. I don't shirk though from pointing out their deficiencies when I can though, since it seems most people would rather just operate happily oblivious or in denial.

That all said though the system is mostly working since it does keep evil people like myself in line, you know, being a Godless pinko and all, I would just operate as I pleased if there were no laws. That it sort of functions in some capacity is mostly a testament to the reasonable majority of the people working within it also doing so in an honest fashion. People are still getting training and becoming, while not great, acceptable pilots for the large part.

I sure hope I never have to deal with you.

I'm just surprised I'm not on your ignore list yet. Anyways, here's some reading if you think we have a problem here.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2011/ ... drunk.html

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/fake ... ools-93534

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-n ... 42388.html

http://www.journal.com.ph/index.php/new ... scam-bared

Kind of makes our problems here look like small fry.

[LousyFisherman]

Like I said, the Canadian system basically runs to intimidate the typical law abiding citizen, keep them in line.

Actually most of the sheeple don't even have to be intimidated. Their thinking is the government knows what it is doing, therefore, all laws are reasonable, suitable and required.

Question the government or the legal system? Why would anyone do that?

LF

[Shiny Side Up]

Their thinking is the government knows what it is doing, therefore, all laws are reasonable, suitable and required.

Question the government or the legal system? Why would anyone do that?

LF

In all honesty though, we do live in a place where people have the luxury to think that way. For the most part most of our laws are reasonable and suitable, unfortunately they're required since we can't trust the general populace to leave it to common sense. Most citizens are generally unaffected by some of our more unreasonable regulations so they often don't come to light. How many people are inconvinienced on a daily basis in this country by the unwieldly rules regarding FTU OCs? Probably count them on both your hands. How much power is there to change that? Even if all of those affected (and wanted change, a smaller fraction of those counted on two hands - keep in mind the system currently suits those who don't obey it, its irrelevant to them, in fact they benefit from the worse that it is) got together, that would be a pretty small voice and thus pretty low on the regulator's priority list.

[Cat Driver]

The fact remains all you Canadians who accept the dictatorship that you are content to put up with deserve exactly what you get.

If nothing else why don't you demand that these parasites who hold up a simple process such as the paper work for a very basic business such as approval to operate a fu.king Cessna 150 in a new flight school go without their pay cheque while they stonewall you for two years or so.

Thank God I was not born in your pathetic mindset in Canada.

[Number1]

This has nothing to do with FTUs. If you are doing aerial work, which is this:

"aerial work" - means a commercial air service other than an air transport service or a flight training service;

then this applies:

702.01 (1) Subject to subsection (2), this Subpart applies in respect of the operation of an aeroplane or helicopter in aerial work involving
(a) the carriage on board of persons other than flight crew members;
(b) the carriage of helicopter Class B, C or D external loads;
(c) the towing of objects; or
(d) the dispersal of products.

(2) This Subpart does not apply in respect of the operation of an ultra-light aeroplane, or in respect of the operation of an aircraft in aerial work involving sightseeing operations.

If you are doing a-d, you need a 702 AOC. If not, you don't, whether you're an FTU or a CPL with an aircraft. So simple...

[Shiny Side Up]

Assuming that you have chosen to not accept the dictatorship, this has changed the system how? Do you think I've come to this conclusion without already having lost these battles? I don't accept the dictatorship either, but I can't change the system alone. I also realise that spending my energies in such a manner would be fruitless, what I do know is that we need to work on change from a different angle. Currently I use what vectors I can. Remember, those who are co-opting the system right now have a strong interest in keeping it in place, so additionally to fighting city hall, we have to be mindful of those in our own ranks who can disrupt our cause. Pounding on the gates of Hell to petition the devil of his unfairness ain't going to change stuff.

Sometimes you can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting.

[Beefitarian]

I like to hope that TC is not intentionally trying to mess with people who are not scammers but it kind of looks that way.

Often the problem is many Canadian laws are reactive. Those that take advantage of things stay ahead. While law abiding people being penalized end up giving up.

[Shiny Side Up]

The main thing is Beef, that the scammers never say no to TC's outrageous demands. But don't think for a second that they're actually following them. this has several problems. First, TC doesn't think such requests are then unreasonable, and often point to those who are "following" them as an example. Anyone who protests then must then be the ones who are wanting to bend the rules to some nefarious purpose. It has parallels to the gun ownership debate, where the onus of is then placed upon the law abiders. Second it then allows the scammers to outcompete the non-scammers financially if the latter chooses to obey the rules. Lastly when the scammers get caught, TC is big on forgiveness for those who are willing to say yes again and promise "they won't do it again".

[Beefitarian]

Exactly and it makes everyone angry because the bad guy gets off by lying and that's not right.

Quit fighting, you guys are on the same side.

[Airtids]

Well, I guess not everyone's experience is the same...

It took my wife and I a total of 4 months from the time we started the process, to being Incorporated with a 406/702/703 VFR OC and CTA License. Fees were exactly what was outlined in the regs. Additional legal and accounting fees were strictly for the Incorporation. The trickiest part was dovetailing TC C&BA, TC M&M, and CTA approvals.

4 years later, we went through the process for an AMO. Exactly 2 months later we were maintaining our own aircraft, as well as doing limited (selective!) outside maintenance.

As far as the process goes, TC cares about "people, places and things". Have all those in place that are required by the regs (and only by KNOWING the regs can you accomplish that), and you're in business.

All that being said, I'm glad we got out when we did. The bureaucratic load (PCTIA, etc...) got to be unbearable for a Mom-n-Pop organisation. The system is set up to facilitate large, puppy-mill training programs.

[Beefitarian]

The system is set up to facilitate large, puppy-mill training programs.

Mount Royal University, might not agree.

[Airtids]

I'm not saying that a big operation can't fail, but they are far better suited to deal with the administrative burden that running a simple training organisation requires. Consider how many small ops have closed up shop in the last, oh, 5 years compared to large ones. MRC had other issues...

[Cat Driver]

It is quite simple for me.

I left this country many years ago because obviously I was not a good Canadian otherwise TCCA would have allowed me to work here.

They did me a real favor because when started working outside of Canada my career moved ahead and I ended up very successful.

Now if only I can get the $250,000 TCCA owes me it would help ease the process they put me through.

As an aside to this issue I have had the pleasure of helping Gilles Hudicourt in his struggle against the system.

I am helping him because he is trying to change a screwed up system rather than just meekly bend over and take whatever TC wants to do to Canadian citizens.

[Beefitarian]

Consider how many small ops have closed up shop in the last, oh, 5 years compared to large ones. MRC had other issues...

You're right. I was goofing with that one.

Generally, I don't think the rules are super friendly towards anyone big or small.

[Shiny Side Up]

I am helping him because he is trying to change a screwed up system rather than just meekly bend over and take whatever TC wants to do to Canadian citizens.

Sometimes you got to put up with some so you can keep in the fight. I can't sustain a direct confrontation with TC for very long, so I need to take a longer view. That's very Maoist thinking on my part so I don't expect you to agree with or support it.

[ReserveTank]

...nothing has happened so far. “Wala pa rin namang nangyayari hanggang ngayon,” they said.

Last time I brought up an issue with TC I received a similar response.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm not saying that a big operation can't fail, but they are far better suited to deal with the administrative burden that running a simple training organisation requires

Exactly! A one or two airplane (mom & pop) FTU
simply can't afford full-time employees who only push
paper for TC.

However, an organization with 20 aircraft can spread
out the cost of the paperwork overhead.

As the years go by, I think we will see all the mom & pop
ftu's disappear as they struggle to deal with the paper
requirements, and fail.

[Shiny Side Up]

Back on the topic of sightseeing.

Interestingly enough if we look up TP12862 (How to Start a Flight Training Unit) we have the following paragraph under the Genreal Information which, while its not regulatory, lays out how TC interprets the rules.

Aerial Sightseeing privileges are automatically added to a FTUOC. Be forewarned that Aerial Sightseeing involves the operating of an aircraft for the purpose of providing recreation to passengers which originates and terminates at the same airport and nothing else. If you wish to provide a charter service which involves the carriage of passengers and/or cargo from point A to point B you must apply for an Air Operator Certificate.

[tractor747]

An FTU can only do flight training and sight seeing. Aerial advertising/patrol, (not sure what you mean by patrol, but as long as there are no passengers), requires a 702 operating certificate. This is issued by Transport Canada. CTA has nothing to do with FTU's or 702 operators.

Was this rule in effect in 1990's as well or is this something new?

Were there special rules with the North American free trade agreement back then , where a flight training unit can also get lucrative contracts doing air traffic patrol for local radio stations without a certificate for a commercial service?

And as well what is the difference between an OC with Transport Canada and the Canadian transportation agency? Can you still operate a commercial air service doing aerial traffic/inspections with your Transport Canada OC and suspend your OC with the Canadian Transportation Agency?

Is there a particular TC person that somebody knows that I can call in the Ontario region?

thanks