Union at West Jet

[True North]

This proves you are completely ignorant of Labour Law.

Really? Do please educate me.

[Mostly Harmless]

Any employer can dismiss any employee for any reason, or even no reason given at any time. Now, this does leave the employer open to a wrongful dismissal case in court, to which they can plead no contest and settle out the finances of what the dismissed employee will get paid. Usually all of this is negotiated between lawyers and settled long before it arrives in court... however, even if it goes all the way to court, the employee has legal fees, time spent without income, and at the end of the day is out of a job and all the benefits that come with that job. In our profession, that also means he likely has to start over at the bottom of the list elsewhere, if he can secure a comparable job. It is unlikely that you will recover what the true cost of that dismissal really is through the court system.

When a union is involved, then things get a little more complicated for the employer and the employee has a union to help cover the legal costs of the case.

I know we all wish it were different, but it isn't.

I'm very interested in what is being said here on both sides of the discussion as it is giving me a lot to think about.

[True North]

Any employer can dismiss any employee for any reason, or even no reason given at any time. Now, this does leave the employer open to a wrongful dismissal case in court, to which they can plead no contest and settle out the finances of what the dismissed employee will get paid.

So like I said, just cause.

Is the suggestion here that WestJet is randomly firing people without just cause?

[Mostly Harmless]

Really? Do please educate me.

I responded to the comment about the ability of a company, any company to dismiss an employee... the point being; there really is no just cause argument. If the company, any company wants to get rid of you, they don't need a reason. Recourse is available but, it will almost never cover actual losses. I hope that I have adequately made my point about labour law and it's general application to all companies.

Is the suggestion here that WestJet is randomly firing people without just cause?

I am not going to engage in this conversation. It is not productive.

[Bede]

This proves you are completely ignorant of Labour Law.

With respect JYSK, I believe it is you that needs some education about labour law. But then again, if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to be enlightened.

There are two types of dismissal: with cause (firing) and without cause (layoff). An employee laid off without cause is entitled to notice or pay in lieu of, usually a function of their wage (ie 3 months wages). A dismissal for cause (serious misconduct, habitual neglect of duty, incompetence, or conduct incompatible with his duties) requires cause. In lieu of just cause, an employee may get a severance (a function of time in job, age, salary, etc). If an employee is fired and a judge or arbitrator later determines that there was insufficient cause, the employee will be awarded back pay.

If a pilot is fired, it does not matter if he's part of a union or not, the same laws still apply. What a union will do though is act as a representative before an arbitrator. Sadly, the employee is often stuck with a union rep, not a lawyer. The lawyer is retained by the union and gives advice to the union rep. If unrepresented by a union, the employee can get his own lawyer and negotiate a settlement or sue. The big difference is the awards that an arbitrator and judge can give: an arbitrator is limited to awards of lost wages only, no matter how egregious the conduct of the employer whereas a judge may award punitive damages on top of lost wages.

WRT to the recently fired WJ pilot, he was on probation. During this period, the employer can terminate without any reason. A union does not help out in this case. When I was at Jazz, a pilot on probation was fired and the union wasn't even told about it.

Here's some helpful reading:
http://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/wrongfuldismissal/

[True North]

I responded to the comment about the ability of a company, any company to dismiss an employee... the point being; there really is no just cause argument. If the company, any company wants to get rid of you, they don't need a reason. Recourse is available but, it will almost never cover actual losses. I hope that I have adequately made my point about labour law and it's general application to all companies.

And my point is that without just cause, it gets very expensive for the company. WestJet being the cost conscious company it is, I find it hard to believe they would engage in such a practice.

I am not going to engage in this conversation. It is not productive.

I'm asking because of this statement by hurtin'albertan; "We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago)."

It certainly isn't productive to make public allegations like that and not back them up.

[Bede]

Any employer can dismiss any employee for any reason, or even no reason given at any time. Now, this does leave the employer open to a wrongful dismissal case in court, to which they can plead no contest and settle out the finances of what the dismissed employee will get paid. Usually all of this is negotiated between lawyers and settled long before it arrives in court... however, even if it goes all the way to court, the employee has legal fees, time spent without income, and at the end of the day is out of a job and all the benefits that come with that job.

That's completely inaccurate. "No contest" is not a term used in labour law, it is a term in criminal proceedings in the US. Any settlement or award for lost wages include legal costs. At the end of the day, you go and get another job, and depending on the circumstances your old employer paying the difference in wages for a time.

The important question is why would my employer want to get rid of me or any one of my colleagues? They have invested a lot of money into me and when I go to work I do everything I can to do a great job.

WJ has done absolutely nothing to indicate to me that they want to get rid of people. On the contrary, they seem to be giving an abundance of chances to people who jeopardize our standing in the eyes of the public. I loath the day when one of the stories we hear on line makes it to the media with a headline of "WJ Pilot...."

In our profession, that also means he likely has to start over at the bottom of the list elsewhere, if he can secure a comparable job. It is unlikely that you will recover what the true cost of that dismissal really is through the court system.

Very true. That's why we should abolish the seniority system.

[URC]

Recourse is available but, it will almost never cover actual losses.

A commercial airline pilot fired seven years ago for allegedly drinking prior to a flight was awarded $3 million after it was determined SkyService Airlines and its chief pilot defamed him

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/ ... c81bd0718e

Can anyone making the "legal protection" argument state a case in Canada were a Union representing a pilot in an accident or termination actually made a difference ? Doesn't the strength of Canadian labour laws make Unions redundant in this country with respect to legal rights regarding discipline up to and including dismissal ?

[Mostly Harmless]

That's completely inaccurate.

Semantics Bede, but your description is better than mine.

[Mostly Harmless]

Recourse is available but, it will almost never cover actual losses.

A commercial airline pilot fired seven years ago for allegedly drinking prior to a flight was awarded $3 million after it was determined SkyService Airlines and its chief pilot defamed him

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/ ... c81bd0718e

Can anyone making the "legal protection" argument state a case in Canada were a Union representing a pilot in an accident or termination actually made a difference ? Doesn't the strength of Canadian labour laws make Unions redundant in this country with respect to legal rights regarding discipline up to and including dismissal ?

I am curious, does anyone know if this guy managed to collect on this award?

[Impact]

Speaking only for myself, one of the top reasons (if not THE reason) I wanted to get on with WJ, was because it wasn't unionized. I'm fairly confident that the majority of pilots at WJ that have spent significant time in a union environment prior to WJ would agree (and the last survey would confirm that). The time that I'd spent at a unionized company was absolutely toxic.

Union environments over time, overwhelmingly trend towards a seniority based benefits hierarchy. If you want that system, fair ball, however the vast majority of pilots joined WJ knowing full well this was a non-union shop. If you want the unionized work environment, please enlighten us as to why you wanted to get onto WJ knowing it wasn't.

As well, I don't buy the "we're at the size now where we need one" argument. Bunk.

[hurtin'albertan]

I'm asking because of this statement by hurtin'albertan; "We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago)."

It certainly isn't productive to make public allegations like that and not back them up.

I never said they were fired. But they were threatened with it, quite severely. You either a) weren't here then or b) didn't pay attention to what was going on.

See the post back on page 1 by jjj I believe, which gives a bit of background.

Ask around, I'm not going to explain more here since it may get personal.

[True North]

I'm asking because of this statement by hurtin'albertan; "We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago)."

It certainly isn't productive to make public allegations like that and not back them up.

I never said they were fired. But they were threatened with it, quite severely. You either a) weren't here then or b) didn't pay attention to what was going on.

See the post back on page 1 by jjj I believe, which gives a bit of background.

Ask around, I'm not going to explain more here since it may get personal.

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

So 4 years ago, 2 pilots were threatened with dismissal for reasons that let's be honest, you don't know. You might know one side of the story but we all know there are at least 2 sides to every story. The threats came from a CEO that is no longer around, your association stood up for them and nothing came of the threat.

Yeah, I can see why you need a union.

[NYCan]

True North. Imploded

A. You're impartial? Certainly doesn't sound that way. You have absolutely no idea what went on! It's well known among our pilot group what actually went on. It's absolutely egregious what transpired.

B. The WJPA never came to the rescue contrary to your misguided assertions. The WJPA is very limited in its current arrangement, yielding almost zero power. It was created this way by design I might add.

C. For the new guy wanting to join WJ. If you believe everything is peachy @ WJ you would be naively incorrect. WJ is no longer a small organization where everyone knows your name. This is a multi billion dollar organization that cares about shareholder return, period.

D. Unions are not evil organizations. If it weren't for trade unions, North America would be like China. It's a fine balance. This company used to understand the balance between company and workers. As we have exploded recently, sadly the balance has swung. It has tipped over so much that it is almost unrecognizable around here.

E. A union keeps organizations in check. It makes our pilot group a proper stake holder with a seat at the table. After all, without us the company doesn't exist. We're not militant, we just want a voice that resonates. Don't believe all the negative chatter that here about "evil" unions. Where do you think these rumours emanate from? Almost every organization in the world doesn't want a union! Why? Because they no longer have a Carte Blanche to do whatever they choose.

Evolution is a natural process within a company. We are sent messages from the company about this very point. Than it makes sense that our pilot group evolves and adapts and keeps up with changes. We need to protect our interests my friends.

[truedude]

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

If you don't work there, perhaps this entire conversation really isn't for you. Just a thought.

P.S. It is also fairly clear that you are not impartial either.

[goaroundthrust]

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

If you don't work there, perhaps this entire conversation really isn't for you. Just a thought.

P.S. It is also fairly clear that you are not impartial either.

Maybe another reason why we should get a private forum going.......

[hurtin'albertan]

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

If you don't work there, perhaps this entire conversation really isn't for you. Just a thought.

P.S. It is also fairly clear that you are not impartial either.

truedude, you misquoted me. True North said that. You should edit your post, and read other posts more carefully. I've worked at WJ for a LONG time, and it saddens me to see where things are going, wrt to employee morale and the general "we don't give a crap what you guys think" attitude of management. It's all about the bottom line, which is fine, but we used to care about our people too.

Lip service is what it is, when they try to "engage". The decisions have been made, it's all about the "sell". Whatever, I understand that we need to evolve, but perhaps the WJPA needs to evolve as well. I'm not saying that certifying is the be all and end all answer, but to dismiss it outright because of bias is to stick one's head in the sand.

True North: Re: the two former WJPA guys, you have no clue what transpired, so you really shouldn't form such a strong opinion. And yes there are two sides to every story, but the on the one side of this, the company looks like a bully.

Also, you are not impartial, and since you say you don't work here, then I wonder why you are so interested?

p.s. DaveP apparently doesn't come here anymore, so sucking up to get a job isn't a good enough reason.

[hurtin'albertan]

Maybe another reason why we should get a private forum going.......

Agreed.

[truedude]

truedude, you misquoted me.

Sorry, not really sure how that happened. I should have caught it though.

[Impact]

Can anyone of you who are advocating for a union and/or a supposed higher level of legal representation answer a question or two for me?

Why is it that when you applied to WJ, conditions here satisfied your expectations, but now they do not?

At what point will you take personal responsibility for your unhappiness about said conditions, and seek a better existence elsewhere rather than change the conditions to suit your own needs/wants?

(I'm fairly certain as to what the responses will be, but hey, let's give 'er a whirl)

[DBC]

Can anyone of you who are advocating for a union and/or a supposed higher level of legal representation answer a question or two for me?

Why is it that when you applied to WJ, conditions here satisfied your expectations, but now they do not?

At what point will you take personal responsibility for your unhappiness about said conditions, and seek a better existence elsewhere rather than change the conditions to suit your own needs/wants?

(I'm fairly certain as to what the responses will be, but hey, let's give 'er a whirl)

I'm not a WJ pilot, but it can safely be said that there are some ex Jazz pilots at WJ who know what kind of damage a management team can do if they want to, by having pilot groups to play off each other. Conditions they likely fled from before that are now potentially being opened up.

Having a new Tier 2 feed possibly doing your flying for less is a fairly large change.

That said, I truly wish I was able to faith in my own management like you guys seem to be able to

[Impact]

That's a fair statement DBC. It's also fair to say that the "if existed in 1996, does today, and will in 10, 20, 30 years from now.

The question is, why were they satisfied with the "if" at the time in which they actively were seeking employment with WJ, versus the conditions of today. I ask that from the standpoint of integrity.

[complexintentions]

impact,

I'm not sure if I understand your last couple of posts. Are you saying that by exercising their right to change their opinion as circumstances change, one's integrity is somehow in question? If so, I have to say I would consider that absurd. WestJet today bears little resemblance to the company in 1996 and surely folks are still entitled to to at the least, consider different approaches to things without fear of persecution. If the majority want the status quo, then changes won't happen. At least, that's the way a quasi-democratic system is supposed to work...no?

But if I misunderstand, I apologize and stand by for clarification.

[hurtin'albertan]

Can anyone of you who are advocating for a union and/or a supposed higher level of legal representation answer a question or two for me?

Why is it that when you applied to WJ, conditions here satisfied your expectations, but now they do not?

At what point will you take personal responsibility for your unhappiness about said conditions, and seek a better existence elsewhere rather than change the conditions to suit your own needs/wants?

(I'm fairly certain as to what the responses will be, but hey, let's give 'er a whirl)

Now if that ain't a fancy way of trotting out that age old saying "If you don't like it, leave" then I don't know what is…

Has it occurred to you that perhaps it IS taking "personal responsibility for your unhappiness about said conditions" that is causing people to wonder about changing or evolving the WJPA to get with the times? Why must the default position be: "this is how it is, management is right, if you don't like it leave or shut up and be quiet". How is that NOT having integrity? Standing up for one's beliefs to me, IS integrity.

Your logic is so completely flawed on so many levels that I can't even fathom why I am wasting energy replying to your lame question. But here it goes anyway:

First of all, unless you were hired in the past two weeks, there has been a TIDAL change for most WJ pilots since they interviewed and/or were hired. Most of the changes have been very positive for the pilot group. In my time here we have gotten a new aircraft type(s), negotiated an industry leading contract (sorry, "agreement"), started ports to save money while helping our peers who commute, started a regional… the list goes on and on and on, too many positive changes to list. However, the current atmosphere is severely lacking what WJ was founded on: Employee Engagement, and mutual respect between management and the pilot group.

WJ is a very different beast today than it was even a year ago. What I, and many others are advocating is that we get our ducks in a row (certified or not, and truth be told, I'd rather keep everything in-house) and re-organize how we deal with management. So we all know where we stand. The current representational structure is not good enough to meet the challenges of the day. As hard as the boys in the WJPA work, they don't have the tools to represent us adequately. Nothing against them, it's the structure.

The number one gripe I keep hearing is the lack of communication from either our reps and/or our management. "Back in the day", Clive or even Durf would at least send out some sort of email after a major announcement. Today, it's all hush, hush. Fine, that's cool, business and such, but let me ask you this: are you 100% happy with how everything is going down? If so, good for you, but you best not complain if/when something comes to bite us in the a$$ 'cause we were all "happy go lucky" and "management never screwed us before, so why would they now?" Our current management team knows what they are doing, building the company up smart and lean and mean. Unfortunately it appears that it's for the benefit of the investors and shareholders (and execs) only. We used to include employees in that list… We need a stronger voice, and I fear that with the barrage of changes, our voice, as the group with the longest-term interest in the success of the company, isn't being heard, or if it is, it's not being considered.

You ever heard the phrase: "Trust, but verify" or "past history is not indicative of future performance"? All I am saying is that we protect ourselves. Does that make me or anyone else non-WestJetty (whatever that is anymore?)

I'm not saying go upstairs and start pounding on the CEO's desk, which is what some of you think anyone advocating for change wants to do. I'm saying, make some positive changes to our representational structure so that we can go upstairs and say, "Hey. Let's figure this out together", and have some tools in the box, and expertise and support behind us.

I'd pay more than $2.50 a cheque for that.

[DH772]

The number one gripe I keep hearing is the lack of communication from either our reps and/or our management. "Back in the day", Clive or even Durf would at least send out some sort of email after a major announcement. Today, it's all hush, hush. Fine, that's cool, business and such, but let me ask you this: are you 100% happy with how everything is going down? If so, good for you, but you best not complain if/when something comes to bite us in the a$$ 'cause we were all "happy go lucky" and "management never screwed us before, so why would they now?" Our current management team knows what they are doing, building the company up smart and lean and mean. Unfortunately it appears that it's for the benefit of the investors and shareholders (and execs) only. We used to include employees in that list… We need a stronger voice, and I fear that with the barrage of changes, our voice, as the group with the longest-term interest in the success of the company, isn't being heard, or if it is, it's not being considered.

It's like watching a young Jazz/AC grow up.