Union at West Jet

[goaroundthrust]

i would gladly take a lower stock price to have the morale back ....

[True North]

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

If you don't work there, perhaps this entire conversation really isn't for you. Just a thought.

P.S. It is also fairly clear that you are not impartial either.

This is a public forum. You do know what "public" means, don't you?

[Impact]

Your logic is so completely flawed on so many levels that I can't even fathom why I am wasting energy replying to your lame question.

I've seen this kind of language used on another forum, and I won't reply to your post until I receive an indication that your aggressiveness is somewhat in check.

Stay classy.

[True North]

True North: Re: the two former WJPA guys, you have no clue what transpired, so you really shouldn't form such a strong opinion. And yes there are two sides to every story, but the on the one side of this, the company looks like a bully.

Also, you are not impartial, and since you say you don't work here, then I wonder why you are so interested?

p.s. DaveP apparently doesn't come here anymore, so sucking up to get a job isn't a good enough reason.

You're a real class act aren't you?

You'd be surprised what I know. I've been around a long time. Why am I interested? I was around when WJ started up and had the opportunity to get on but turned it down because I had just gotten my dream job. I know a lot of WJ pilots including some of your management pilots, one of whom is a very close friend. I hear lots about what goes on at WJ, including the of the antics of some of your group, which border on the unbelievable. Maybe I'm not entirely impartial, I do have a soft spot for WJ because I know so many people there and have watched it grow from the beginning, but mostly I'm a fan because WJ is that exceedingly rare beast - a Canadian aviation success story and it would be very sad if guys like you mess that up.

You said it yourself "Most of the changes have been very positive for the pilot group. In my time here we have gotten a new aircraft type(s), negotiated an industry leading contract (sorry, "agreement"), started ports to save money while helping our peers who commute, started a regional… the list goes on and on and on, too many positive changes to list." And yet here you are whining like a 12 year old girl about "communication". Does your Director of Flight Standards not attend every recurrent ground school, so he can take crap from you? Does your EVP Ops not also attend those same ground schools to brief you on what's up? That sure sounds like communication to me. Maybe you're the one who isn't listening.

The question has been asked many times but never answered so here it is again, what is it a union will get you that you don't already have or that your association can't? It sure as hell won't be engagement.

And lastly jackass, I'm not sucking up for anything. I am very happily retired after 30+ very rewarding years in the industry and judging by what's going on here, glad to be on the sidelines.

[DaveP]

Lol

I wasn't there, I don't work for WJ, I'm just an interested, impartial bystander.

If you don't work there, perhaps this entire conversation really isn't for you. Just a thought.

P.S. It is also fairly clear that you are not impartial either.

truedude, you misquoted me. True North said that. You should edit your post, and read other posts more carefully. I've worked at WJ for a LONG time, and it saddens me to see where things are going, wrt to employee morale and the general "we don't give a crap what you guys think" attitude of management. It's all about the bottom line, which is fine, but we used to care about our people too.

Lip service is what it is, when they try to "engage". The decisions have been made, it's all about the "sell". Whatever, I understand that we need to evolve, but perhaps the WJPA needs to evolve as well. I'm not saying that certifying is the be all and end all answer, but to dismiss it outright because of bias is to stick one's head in the sand.

True North: Re: the two former WJPA guys, you have no clue what transpired, so you really shouldn't form such a strong opinion. And yes there are two sides to every story, but the on the one side of this, the company looks like a bully.

Also, you are not impartial, and since you say you don't work here, then I wonder why you are so interested?

p.s. DaveP apparently doesn't come here anymore, so sucking up to get a job isn't a good enough reason.

[NYCan]

How do you feel about the possibly of a union DP? Are you against it?

[Lateralus]

Personally I have not worked with anyone at WJ that wants a union. Also the comments about morale being low, I have yet to see this with both pilots and FAs I have worked with. Everyone I have worked with seems to be embracing the base announcements. This is my personal experience so far but apparently some are having very different experience.


Also the comment about the sunwing contract and their union. Can someone explain to me what is so great about foreign pilots and training bonds? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal they got there

[MUSKEG]

Unfortunately with growth and rapid expansion comes the need for lots of manpower. The old days of 5 or 6 internal references required to get in are for the most part over and with it the ability to select only those that have the same mindset. Where there is smoke there is fire and it is extremely unfortunate but I believe you will see a union at WJ in a few years. The mentality has gone from Mom and Pop to big business and that breeds employee unrest. Moral will tank (apparently its on its way already), there will be lots of infighting and backstabbing and what was once the best airline job in Canada will mirror the big red and white. It's called greed, both from the employer and the employee and history shows that when it gets to that stage it's almost certainly not reversible. It only takes a small percentage of unhappy employees to stir the pot and its soon a festering boil. I sincerely hope I'm wrong on this, just an interested bystander who travels W/J almost exclusively.

[True North]

Lol

It would seem the rumours of your demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[DaveP]

Hi True
I still kick around and read. It's all good. I was getting swamped with private messages etc.
I've just retired from my regular posting.
Take care
Dave

[Bede]

Moral will tank (apparently its on its way already), there will be lots of infighting and backstabbing and what was once the best airline job in Canada will mirror the big red and white. It's called greed, both from the employer and the employee and history shows that when it gets to that stage it's almost certainly not reversible. It only takes a small percentage of unhappy employees to stir the pot and its soon a festering boil. I sincerely hope I'm wrong on this, just an interested bystander who travels W/J almost exclusively.

I mentioned this in a post a few years back comparing Jazz and WJ: WestJet is a very good place to work and Jazz is a good place to work. The difference is there was much more negativity at Jazz and so you always go the feeling you were working for a poor company.

Negativity is like a cancer in a company. As far as compensation and time off, I have no complaints. I wish some of the "lowest common denominator" stuff could be eliminated so we could get back to what we do best- fly airplanes and make decisions, but I have come to accept that is part of a growing company. Guys far more senior than me have brought these concerns forward. Although it's too bad when I see a poor operational decision made when I know we could make a much better decision, I don't get worked up over it anymore. (I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing). I go to work, work hard, get my pay cheque, get my time off with the kids and I'm happy.

Anyways, I really can't point to anything management is doing that's reducing moral. I have a feeling the reduced moral is largely a few aggrieved individuals although many of my coworkers agree with the above paragraph. Can someone really point anything out that should have been done differently? Should they have waited to announce the bases until everything was decided? So some guys end up moving to YYC just to find out YYZ is becoming a base. Isn't this the way WJ does things? Tell employees where we're going and asking for advice on how to get there. Really, what more do some of you want? You're really demanding a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario from the company and I don't think that is a reasonable expectation from the company.

I don't think Gregg will allow the pilots a few extra days off so we can see our families more, but he's certainly not out to screw us- he's here to look after the interests of the corporation. (I know the old way- employees, guest, shareholders). Pilots need to look for our own interests, but at the end of the day we all work for the same company and all profit from WJ profitability. A union is not the way to go forward.

[NYCan]

WJ has been proactive in many realms. I suspect they will ultimately find a way to hopefully strike a fair balance. The base situation needs to be handled very judiciously, so far the delivery has been rather cumbersome. I'm sure they are working hard to find the best solutions possible.

The WJPA in its present form is very much restricted in its ability to properly handle most situations. They absolutely try their best, however often they just don't have the resources or manpower. I personally think the pilot group can do a better job managing their own affairs as a separate entity, removed from an earshot of management. Does this mean a union? Not necessarily in the traditional sense. It's not US vs THEM. The same cordial arrangement, with a more defined constitution. A strong united pilot group only strengthens our company.

I think civilized discussion is healthy. Negative mudslinging is absolutely counterproductive. The company has evolved, I think the pilot group needs to keep up with the change.

M

[bombardierfixer]

The communication strategies at WJ always fall a little flat. Its unfortunate that its happened again to a certain degree with the base announcement but changes like this are bound to happen.

As for the pilot group striking out on its own that may not be a bad idea but when people talk union, honestly what do you think a union can give you that you already don't have? You don't start from today and build with a contract you go back to square one. I sit on PACT and on one of the standing committees and the pilots always say that their agreement is a contract and should be treated as such. Honestly guys the executive puts a lot of work into the culture and they try to do things thoughtfully. You remember the three way balance right? It takes a lot of work to do that and focusing on one just upsets the other two.

As for morale you are letting first time posters hiding in anonymity stoke your fires. Look in the mirror and ask yourself when the last time WJ really screwed you? I'm not talking about screwed up communications or missteps I mean really gave you/ not a guy somebody knows, a good rogering.

We are a big company with our fair share of idiots. That's life.

As for a private WJ forum not a bad idea, so long as its for all concerned Westjetters not just one group.

[CanadaEH]

The communication strategies at WJ always fall a little flat. Its unfortunate that its happened again to a certain degree with the base announcement but changes like this are bound to happen.

As for the pilot group striking out on its own that may not be a bad idea but when people talk union, honestly what do you think a union can give you that you already don't have? You don't start from today and build with a contract you go back to square one. I sit on PACT and on one of the standing committees and the pilots always say that their agreement is a contract and should be treated as such. Honestly guys the executive puts a lot of work into the culture and they try to do things thoughtfully. You remember the three way balance right? It takes a lot of work to do that and focusing on one just upsets the other two.

As for morale you are letting first time posters hiding in anonymity stoke your fires. Look in the mirror and ask yourself when the last time WJ really screwed you? I'm not talking about screwed up communications or missteps I mean really gave you/ not a guy somebody knows, a good rogering.

We are a big company with our fair share of idiots. That's life.

As for a private WJ forum not a bad idea, so long as its for all concerned Westjetters not just one group.

We need crewing help out East and by all accounts having a YYZ bases is a no-brainer (financially and operationally). This winter has been an embarrassment given the challenges we've had with crewing out East and the snowball effect has been felt across the entire network. I'm glad we're finally addressing it and if that means some tough changes need to happen, I support it. My wife is a port FA so this will have an effect on our family. Instead of getting worked up over an announcement that the Company was going to WORK WITH EMPLOYEE GROUPS to make this work, I'll wait for just that.

As for a private forum, we had one on this website but the administrators and moderators started to snoop around so it became a lot less private.

[green bastard]

Bede,
You seem to have a good grasp of Labour law, but you seem to have a one sided jaded view of unions because of your experience at Jazz. A union is only as good as its MEC, arbitration process and member participation.
I am neither for or against unions in the airline business, but they are often a necessary step in a the ups and downs of labour/management relations. The old adage " every company gets the union they deserve" usually has some truth in that saying.
With regards to Westjet I see you and others using this forum to rally against unions at Westjet. How about some real innovative suggestions and assistance that would help the WJPA move our situation forward and address the major unresolved issues. Lets accomplish this on our in-house forum and cease the anti union propaganda out here. It serves little purpose.
And let the union drivers prepare for a rainy day, in case it starts raining.

[Bede]

Green bastard,

I don't think my view are jaded by my time at Jazz. Actually quite the opposite. I had a lot of respect for our reps: I thought they were competent, hard working individuals. I like what we have at WJ much better, even though there is room for improvement. I just can't stand the adversarial nature of trade unionism. Even when the company wants to do something that will benefit the company a lot and benefit the employees quite a bit, the union serves to demand more. Here's an example: At Jazz, the company wanted us to do a day of training at home. We would get paid for a day of work. The union opposed it because there may be a few pilots who would drag out their self-paced training over two days. So instead of being done a day of training in 3 hrs at home, we had to do in for 8 to listen to some guy drone on.

Perhaps the day will come when WJ gets a union. But as far as I see it, there is absolutely no reason to do so. We have respectful, competent management. Even if things get really bad I would hesitate to vote for a union. IMO unions are best for low skill workers who are uneducated and have a difficult time standing up for their rights under labour law. Pilots are professionals and should pursue a professional college to advocate for their interests on a national scale.

[KAG]

Most pilots I've worked with don't want a union.
We have a gentlemens style agreement that yes could be manipulated, so far it hasn't.
If (big if) the day were to come where they did, well maybe then a union would find it's way in.
I truely hope that day never comes.

[mbav8r]

Not to thread drift, but Bede your information is outdated, we have a day of at home computer based training for recurrent. This was inserted in the last contract and needed time to be implemented. There are other examples of us working with the company in the last while(few years), last summer a perfect example, short of crews, gave them a LOU for increased productivity. Not everyone was happy but, really, when is everyone happy.

Back to your current issues, my two cents, there are signs, many many signs and only a fool would look the other way while a train might be barrelling towards you! Just because they haven't in the past doesn't mean they won't.
Curious, why does bases, automatically mean no more port? If no more port, does that mean no more free commute?

[KAG]

I asked the same question. Turns out most other port(s) have layovers and turns into/out of YYZ. A lot of this flying will be given to the YYZ base, so therefore no (reduced) need for ports.
As for paid commute, they said it will most likely be lost - really its up to the airports. The paid for commute was never promised to last beyond a year anyway.
Personally I don't see the ports going away any time soon, its going to take years to get YYZ fully staffed.
I also think some ports could remain open in a reduced capacity.
Again there is no actual information out there so its wait and see. Good news for perspective YYZ new hires that were on the fence because they didn't want to commute.

[Old fella]

".............. WJ will become "just another airline".

To the fare paying public that is exactly what WJ is, always was and always will be.

[onetreehill]

In your Rouge coloured dreams old man.

[DH772]

Let me guess onetreehill, he should have seen your t4 last year??

[Old fella]

Hey people of the Teal colored B737, no need to gravitate on your own self-importance. In the big scheme of things call aviation it doesn’t really matter. Yes, you have a very good airline that provides first rate service, so does Air Canada, Jazz and Porter. I have flown with y’all……… no axe to grind with any of ya.

Being retired, T4’s don’t matter at all either and not interested in the number of digits.

Lighten up, Westjetters for Christ sake!!!

[onetreehill]

You should have seen it.

[Old fella]

You should have seen it.

Well when you hang up the teal spurs and retire - hope there is something left over for you.