Union at West Jet

[beaverguy]

Hey 737, have you been at WS long? I have. And it's not all great right now. There are several issues that need addressed. I'm not going into them here. But if you don't see that, then you are blind.

[Mach1]

It has been my lifes experience that no one appreciates a set of balls quite like the owner of them does.
The silver lining would be a new run of "Owners Care" ads featuring a large boardroom table.....

Indeed... and aligned with my own thoughts.

That would make for one ugly add...

[7thirtyseven]

Hey 737, have you been at WS long? I have. And it's not all great right now. There are several issues that need addressed. I'm not going into them here. But if you don't see that, then you are blind.

Yes I have, and yes I am very aware of the issues, and yes I AM very vocal internally. I have also been in the industry for a long time and can converse with you semi knowledgably on anything from the Piche Award to CALPA to floatsto RNP approaches. I have had 3 airlines dissappear from beneath my feet and have many kms in crappy cars driving to crappy jobs/interviews. I can safetly say that other than us having our collective balls on the table in the context of Encore, the other issues facing us would be considered "minor skirmishes" at other airlines. Man up, we work at an airline that is currently thriving, we get paid an honest dollar for an honest days work, we hold an increadible power over past and current mgmnt. Speaking of managmt we have a gang in place that is very focused on Westjets future viability.
If you want threats, wake up with billions of dollars of debt, a fractured pilot group a mgmnt team playing shell games and all pwr effectively removed by the current federal government. If you want a real threat wake up with a CPA thats about to expire and no real options in sight.
While the WJPA has not satisfied me in recent history we have it very very good, take a look around.

[CanadaEH]

While the WJPA has not satisfied me in recent history we have it very very good, take a look around.

And that's just it - isn't it? Nothing is perfect but we (all employee groups, I think) have it very good compared to our peers in the industry. Great post.

[El Comat]

I'll second that, CanadaEH! We have it VERY good at WJ! Sure there are things that aren't perfect, and some issues that need to be addressed, but who doesn't?? For everyone who shows me one of our problems, I'll show you two problems at another airline. Some people will just never be happy....they need to be sent to Bangladesh or somewhere like that to see what a real "problem" is. In the meantime, let's just stay positive and try to make WJ an even better place to work!

EC

[WJ200]

Hey 737, have you been at WS long? I have. And it's not all great right now. There are several issues that need addressed. I'm not going into them here. But if you don't see that, then you are blind.

Beaver Guy,

Take a look around at other unions and their interaction with management. I would say that if you don't see the toxic and antagonistic relationship that both sides have created over the past two decades, then you are blind. The WJPA has ensured that you are one of the highest paid 737 drivers in NA. In exchange for that they work us hard.....but pilots being pilots always want more and more. (Just like the company wants more and more....)

At what expense would it take for the company to make a small group of vocal pilots happy? Were they even happy when they came here? Would a union and a toxic us versus them mentality give you the satisfaction by winning a few battles? How many battles would you have to lose first?

Keep it in perspective that a dissatisfied small group of pilots do not speak for the majority.

[7thirtyseven]

Now that Beaverguy has been shit on enough, lets not get all "Tony Robbins"... the talk of positivity is a little thick.
There are very real issues with the WJPA that only a few are willing to think about let alone talk about. WJ200, the dissatisfied small group you talk of are very pro WestJet and have excellent points that need to be addressed... Ignore their arguements at your own peril. Both from a company and pilot perspective. Rather than "not speaking for the majority" I believe they are the cutting edge of the majority.

[beaverguy]

Hey guys and gals. I don't feel like I've been shit on at all. Everyone has their opinion. But if people at the company can't see the erosion of culture then I don't know what they are looking at. I'm not saying it's a bad place to work, not at all. But I have never seen moral so low, in the pilot dept, with the stock price so high. I lost faith in he WJPA several months ago when help was offered to them because they had so much on their plate. Offer denied. Now they are in way over their heads. I also don't like that the executives have not been honest with us in recent history. (Bases come to mind). So ya, all in all it's a great place to work just want to keep it that way.

[dhc#]

Does Saretsky have the same style of management DNA as Steve Smith did ?

[loopa]

Now that Beaverguy has been shit on enough

Aren't you guys happy you made it through the interviews, training, and are flying for a company that lets you basically have the life style you wish and build up investments for a personalized type of pension plan? Seems gravy for a 705 driver on the outside. I sense the growing pains are hitting WJ but you'd think it would be moments like this where the core culture is what people fall back on for a successful future.

I just hope you guys don't so to speak "shit" on each other when you are essentially holding one of the best flying jobs in the country. Don't forget that there's always the need for 1900 drivers where you can toss your own bags and carry a piss bottle for de-icing instead of uplinking flight plans onto your cdu and getting your info with the touch of some buttons on an ACARS; all the while your cup of warm coffee is kindly in your other hand and some green stuff is being sprayed at your gate. Just sayin - yea, there's some unresolved issues but there always are no matter where you work. Aviation is an evolving industry and with it come continuous change.

Stay happy boys & girls and don't forget why you got into this in the first place !

[7thirtyseven]

Now that Beaverguy has been shit on enough

Aren't you guys happy you made it through the interviews, training, and are flying for a company that lets you basically have the life style you wish and build up investments for a personalized type of pension plan? Seems gravy for a 705 driver on the outside. I sense the growing pains are hitting WJ but you'd think it would be moments like this where the core culture is what people fall back on for a successful future.

I just hope you guys don't so to speak "shit" on each other when you are essentially holding one of the best flying jobs in the country. Don't forget that there's always the need for 1900 drivers where you can toss your own bags and carry a piss bottle for de-icing instead of uplinking flight plans onto your cdu and getting your info with the touch of some buttons on an ACARS; all the while your cup of warm coffee is kindly in your other hand and some green stuff is being sprayed at your gate. Just sayin - yea, there's some unresolved issues but there always are no matter where you work. Aviation is an evolving industry and with it come continuous change.

Stay happy boys & girls and don't forget why you got into this in the first place !

Holy!!!! Tony Robbins reads this stuff????
How you injected some 90s poppsych into this thread from that quote is beyond me.

[True North]

I also don't like that the executives have not been honest with us in recent history. (Bases come to mind).

How was your executive not honest with you about establishing bases?

[complexintentions]

One of the biggest threats to a company's conditions sliding downhill is a relentless denial that anything is wrong, and using the last defense of the lazy arguer: "Well, it could alway be worse".

If THAT's the only mark you're trying to hit - being slightly better than the next worse company, or even most of the rest, then it won't be long until someone comes along to pick your pocket. I virtually guarantee it.

Even bringing (what loopa apparently deems lesser) jobs like flying a B1900 into the argument, is only echoing a classic management tactic: attempting to use fear of returning conditions to the past, as a way to brush aside present concerns. Regressive to say the least. How the hell is some previous job relevant to trying to improve your present one?

Anyway, I don't have a horse in this race specifically but hear the same argument trotted out day in and out "Well thank your lucky stars, you could be at Company X! And there's the door by the way!"

It's a weak argument for those who don't have the stomach to try and improve things, so accept the status quo no matter what it is, and it makes me sick. At least in a Canadian company, and in a supposedly progressive one, you have a few tools at your disposal to try and effect positive change. Not ingratiating platitudes.

[stickontheice]

The WJPA is doing a fine job. I doubt any union could do any better at WJ. For me it's the speed that these changes are being made. Code Share, Encore, Bases, 1:50, just done with absolutely blinding speed and no way to react to one change because another is guaranteed to be right around the corner. How can any group of people negotiate or solve problems properly when you have all these major and minor announcements being made so quickly. I can't think of any employee group that can rightfully say they need a union but Gregg's vision needs to be shared and communicated better so that the employees can get behind him. Right now we are deers in headlights.

[TheStig]

Interesting discussion, I'm just curious if the WJPA's leaders are elected by the pilot group? How long is their term?

[Arctic84]

Complexintentions,

Thank you for expressing exactly what i was thinking, but was unable to put in words.

It's a good job, but not as good as it was last year, and that was not as good as the year before. And that ain't a good thing.

[Arctic84]

Interesting discussion, I'm just curious if the WJPA's leaders are elected by the pilot group? How long is their term?

We have elections, but most positions are filled by acclimation.

[Lateralus]

Complexintentions,

Thank you for expressing exactly what i was thinking, but was unable to put in words.

It's a good job, but not as good as it was last year, and that was not as good as the year before. And that ain't a good thing.

Could you expand on that at all please? I have only been at WJ for close to a year now, formerly at Jazz, and the difference is night and day (almost 5 years at Jazz) and its a pretty damn good job. I get all my days off I ask for, I get weekends, holidays off, I get flying that I want. I get profit share, ESPP, etc. I commute and I have it better than I did at Jazz when I wasn't commuting. I wanted to go to WJ because of the above and so far it is everything I was hoping for and more. No I am not brainwashed, or drinking the Kool-aid, I just had 5 years of crap schedules, reserve, negative and fearful working environment, and see how good I have it now. I feel pretty lucky to be here.

I don't have any reference for what it was like last year or the year before except for the Captains I fly with and friends that have been here a few years. But so far I have not ever heard anyone complain, or say that is has gotten worse. I know some people are freaked out by the changes coming with bases, etc. But again all the guys I fly with are all optimistic and quite happy with the company. Honestly the only time I see negativity is on here and the same dozen or so guys that post on the WJPA forum.

Are guys just not speaking up? Are more guys unhappy than happy? I am seriously interested to know why the job was better a year ago, and the year before that? I would like to hear cause I just haven't come across it on the line and day to day ops.

Thanks

[Squid]

how come you don’t run then arctic (chickentaco)? What are YOU doing about it! lol.

[Arctic84]

Well, I'm glad you are happy.

You walked into instant seniority; I have been here a long time, and i can't seem to get the great sched that you get. Every month is a crap shoot.

In the last year, we have gone to 2 757 flying for 5 months from 1 757 flying for 9 weeks (can I have a show of hands). Next season, look for 3 757. We have B scaled pilots (Encore), F/As, CSAs, and handed over an open-ended, no scope, operation that may decide to fly jets at any time. When asked what would prevent us from being out maneuvered on jet flying, we got "trust us". Okay, why not sign something that says all jet flying at mainline? Sorry, can't be "restricted" . Don't matter to me, I'm so far up the not-a-seniority list that it won't affect me.

It's all very important, because our CASM is becoming too high. Big problem with tenured employees. OTOH, the CEO got a 25% raise in total comp in 2012, and EVPs got a 50% raise. 6 weeks of vacation too. You and me, we get to pick snot rags out of seat backs for the same money as last year.

Yup, harsh analysis I know. I sincerely hope you get to enjoy the kind of career you deserve. Keep your eyes open, and question (carefully, you want to be a Captain some day) the things that are happening today. They will truly shape the rest of your career.

[Arctic84]

how come you don’t run then arctic (chickentaco)? What are YOU doing about it! lol.

Ya, yuck it up squidy! We'll talk in 10 years. I'll be in the rocker (or the grave), and if you want to know where you'll be, try reading the regional WAWCON.

As for running for that office, no thanks, I stopped asking for permission to go to the bathroom at age 2.

[Squid]

what ever! lol You just answered my question. You are doing nothing but complaining! lol I’ll put a 6 pack on status quo for your 57 program next winter (No increase like you say) and the last time I checked (and I’ve been researching contracts - you don’t need a show of hands for the program) get over that and a form of date of hire for encore and oh ya, you guys are already one of the highest narrow body guys in NA so are you saying that your exec shouldnt get some...they cant even hold a candle to my shop!.... lol what do you think this is? small town saskatchewan!

[Arctic84]

what ever! lol You just answered my question. You are doing nothing but complaining! lol I’ll put a 6 pack on status quo for your 57 program next winter (No increase like you say) and the last time I checked (and I’ve been researching contracts - you don’t need a show of hands for the program) get over that and a form of date of hire for encore and oh ya, you guys are already one of the highest narrow body guys in NA so are you saying that your exec shouldnt get some...they cant even hold a candle to my shop!.... lol what do you think this is? small town saskatchewan!

Answered like a true cultist.

Being on the WJPA is a risky piece of business. try reading the PACT constitution, paying particular attention to who you are responsible to, and the code of practice. Then tell me who these guys are representing.

You must be new if you don't understand the show of hands reference. Ask your PACT rep, they will tell you what to think.

Are we the highest paid narrow body pilots? Look at the AC mainline contract at airlinepilotcentral.com. Never mind that, if we had min. credit, paid reserve, pension, seniority bidding, industry standard vacation and work rules that aren't CARs minimum, WJ would need 25% more pilots. Then again, AC pilots don't groom airplanes or do security checks gratis. Give me their contract and I would give up my "highest paid narrow body pilot" status in a second. You cherry-pick like an executive.

Out there on the line, Captains lead by example. When the exec sticks their collective snout in the trough and tells me I gotta work more for less, I'm not moved.

The whole 757 program was decided on a show of hands in front of the CEO, exec and flt. ops management. So there you are, new FO, and you are going to vote no?

[Squid]

Re read - "one of" not the highest - you can't argue that.
I don't work for you.
So, again what are you doing about it? Nothing but complain. Laughable and typical.
Take a look what the difference is between an moa and Lou. Then a show of hands will work as its in your agreement and no material change. So your take is wrong period. If you don't like acclimation then get in there and give the membership some choices. Anyone can complain but I laugh when they (you)absolutely contribute nothing around but think you are the one that carries all the weight. Yup, the place couldnt possibly survive without ya.
Lead by example then "captain"

[Arctic84]

Re read - "one of" not the highest - you can't argue that.
I don't work for you.
So, again what are you doing about it? Nothing but complain. Laughable and typical.
Take a look what the difference is between an moa and Lou. Then a show of hands will work as its in your agreement and no material change. So your take is wrong period. If you don't like acclimation then get in there and give the membership some choices. Anyone can complain but I laugh when they (you)absolutely contribute nothing around but think you are the one that carries all the weight. Yup, the place couldnt possibly survive without ya.
Lead by example then "captain"

Ah, you don't work for WS. "scuze me, i didn't know that you were talking out your ass in this thread. Why didn't you say you didn't know shit from shinola? Could saved me a lot of typing