Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

[jeta1]

Lets wait for some more information.

Said after four paragraphs of speculative drivel.

AAA+++

[Jack In The Box]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

Thats not really THE issue. Of course you should be well above things you can hit, but the really important part is to MAINTAIN A POSITIVE RATE OF CLIMB!! A turn at 500 feet AGL will kill you really fast, if in the turn you allow your climb to decay. This is what kills. Personally, I turn when it's safe to do so, and I'm in a strong climb. I maintain a positive deck angle all the way up.
In a dark takeoff, the PNF has ONE responsibility, and ONE only. That is to monitor rate of climb to a predetermined safe altitude. No radio calls. No paper work. NOTHING else. If there are two heads in a cockpit.....both should be concerned with rate of climb.
Are there any questions?

I know Doc can come across as a bit if a prickly pear to some, but he's absolutely damn right. This is very basic stuff that is very easy to get away from too. I cant stress it enough. Living creatures have basic survival instincts...they naturally want to protect themselves. ensuring a positive rate of climb is a basic survival instinct! I remember, during my initial FO training, my training captain almost washed me out because i kept forgetting to call "3 positive rates of climb." I will never forget his words to me, "if you cannot call 3 positive rates or climb, you cannot fly this airplane." At first i didnt take him seriously. after one night takeoff in butt fak nowhere, I understood completely. His words have very likely helped to save my life. I personally know two people who would be alive today had they looked and made that call.

I also COMPLETELY agree about questioning the necessity of those night medevacs. Many of which I have done as an FO.

I'm not the most experienced guy out there...but I've flown enough to have been deemed worthy by my employer to operate as PIC in a very high performance turboprop aircraft into some very challenging conditions. And so far, nothing has scared the absolute hell out of me like flying with no autopilot into black hole conditions (especially taking off or landing). Absolutely nothing.

*edit* this is not a criticism or a speculation of the crew in question, nor is it really related to the accident so much as docs post.

[midwingcrisis]

Considering flight was at night,weather?, and route, is there a reason that the flight was under VFR rules? Just asking.

[r22captain]

Weather was good.

IFR trips aren't done from this base as CYTS is the closest alternative, and the required amount can't be carried.

[pdw]

12am local: CYTS thunderstorm/rain 18C/17C ene 11km 1011.1 94%

CYMO 3C/2C windchill 0C nne 11km 1016.1 93% (wunderground history 12am May 31)

No station info for CYAT.

[midwingcrisis]

Which leads to my question....Does anyone know the enroute weather at the proposed flight time? I saw the the "next TAF, GFA" after period. On another note, I see TSB has ruled out mechanical and ORNGE is pressing the self grounded S-76 fleet back to service.

[Cat Driver]

For the purpose of finding out why they crashed the enroute weather has no bearing on this accident as they never got enroute.

[midwingcrisis]

CYMO 310400Z AUTO 02006KT 9SM SCT048 OVC095 03/02 A3000 RMK SLP161


CYMO 310500Z AUTO 03004KT 330V070 5SM BR OVC046 03/02 A3001 RMK SLP163


TAF CYMO 301738Z 3018/3024 01008KT P6SM -RA SCT008 OVC015 TEMPO 3018/3024 3SM -SHRA BR OVC008 RMK FCST BASED ON AUTO OBS. NXT FCST WILL BE ISSUED AT 311045Z

[midwingcrisis]

Narrative from CADOR


2013-06-04
Narrative:
UPDATE: JRCC TRENTON SARSUM REPORT [T2013-00294]: SAR ORNGE Helo C-GIMY (511567N 0803080W - Moosonee). ORNGE contacted JRCC to advise that one of their aircraft on a Medevac with 4 POB was overdue near Moosonee. 424 Sqn Herc R344 and Griffon R493 tasked, as well as charter helo out of Cochrane ON. Herc located crash 1 NM from Moosonee airport in swamp and wooded area, accessible only via hoist or ATV. Four Sartechs jumped and ultimately confirmed 4 deceased. Two ST walked to Moosonee in thick swampy bush while 2 others remained behind to guard crash site. Local FD managed to arrive on scene on ATV's and relieved ST of guard duty. Griffon who was in transit near Timmins Ont turned around due to bad weather and aircraft usual inability to fly under IFR conditions. R344 picked up 2 ST in Moosonee and flew back to Trenton. Remaining ST to be transported tonight to Orillia via OPP Pilatus aircraft. Chartered helo did not depart due to weather and ultimately cancelled. Case Closed.
O.P.I.:
Further Action Required:
No

[pdw]

CYMO 310400Z AUTO 02006KT 9SM SCT048 OVC095 03/02 A3000 RMK SLP161

Issued for 11 minutes before the accident at the station, before departure into wind.

CYMO 310500Z AUTO 03004KT 330V070 5SM BR OVC046 03/02 A3001 RMK SLP163

45 minutes after, station is 1km SW of accident location.

[CLguy]

Funeral Service notice for Don

http://www.lougheedfuneralhomes.com/boo ... etails.php

[Doc]

Weather was good.

IFR trips aren't done from this base as CYTS is the closest alternative, and the required amount can't be carried.

Why wouldn't they base a fixed wing A/C in YMO instead then? Everywhere they would go has strips? YTS would be an easy alternate for a PC12 (single engine POS that they may well be). Doesn't basing a Sikorsky in YMO, severely limit their mission capabilities? A PC12 would cost a fraction to operate, could reach the entire James/Hudson Bay cost. It would put big city hospitals within easy reach. Can't imagine operating in that area without FUEL to bugger off with. I've flown the area enough to see the fog roll in....

[Aeroplane17]

Why wouldn't they base a fixed wing A/C in YMO instead then? Everywhere they would go has strips? YTS would be an easy alternate for a PC12 (single engine POS that they may well be). Doesn't basing a Sikorsky in YMO, severely limit their mission capabilities? A PC12 would cost a fraction to operate, could reach the entire James/Hudson Bay cost. It would put big city hospitals within easy reach. Can't imagine operating in that area without FUEL to bugger off with. I've flown the area enough to see the fog roll in....[/quote]

The hospital in YMO is on an island. Every patient transferred there with a fixed wing is loaded on the s-76 and flown the 2 min trip to the island. When the copter is down they've been known to use a boat. Fixed wing makes sense but that fact alone requires a whirly bird.

[nothingbeatsflying]

Isn't it strange that the old S-76's are up north in the remote spots with little ambient light, limited weather reporting, or alternates, and the newer aircraft are down south where they have alternates all over the place? Is it just because the hospital is the majority of their trips? What about Thunder Bay and Kenora? News says that those are S-76 bases as well? Wouldn't they also be pretty remote with few alternates?

[Doc]

[quote="Aeroplane1
The hospital in YMO is on an island. Every patient transferred there with a fixed wing is loaded on the s-76 and flown the 2 min trip to the island. When the copter is down they've been known to use a boat. Fixed wing makes sense but that fact alone requires a whirly bird.[/quote]

And they "need" a machine like the S76 to fly from YMO to Moose Factory???? Keep in mind, I've been there. It's a 9 iron shot. This, and the S76 still can't go in IFR...the whole thing smells/stinks of politics!

[A pilot's wife]

I normally don’t follow these threads...my husband does. Unfortunately, this crash hit a little too close to home. I spent quite a few years working as a medic before our kids were born, alongside some truly amazing men/women. My husband has been a pilot for nearly twenty years. I have been with him for 17 of those. Flying is what he loves. It is in his blood. It is what makes him who he is... I have yet to meet another pilot who doesn’t feel the same.
Unfortunately, a lot of speculation has been flying around as to what happened that night. I’d like to kick that off to the side if I can (if only for this one post) and focus on some facts. What we do know, in actual fact, through the eyes of family and friends is that these were great men who touched the lives of many. They were husbands, they were dads, they were brothers, they were sons, and they were friends. Those that knew them personally or met them in passing, were better for it. How one dies should not be more important than how one lives their life. These men lived theirs to the fullest and will be deeply missed. Maybe we can spend a little more time focusing on that.....
- A pilot’s wife

[nothingbeatsflying]

And they "need" a machine like the S76 to fly from YMO to Moose Factory???? Keep in mind, I've been there. It's a 9 iron shot. This, and the S76 still can't go in IFR...the whole thing smells/stinks of politics!

I think CARS requires multi-engine for air taxi at night does it not? Or at the very least it looks like it requires some kind of extra permission in the AOC.

703.22 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no air operator shall operate a single-engined aircraft with passengers on board in IFR flight or in night VFR flight.

(2) An air operator may operate a single-engined aircraft with passengers on board in IFR flight or in night VFR flight if the air operator

(a) is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

[New Flyer]

@nothingbeatsflying....the new helicopters do not fit into ORNGE's hangar in Moose.

[Quad18star]

I normally don’t follow these threads...my husband does. Unfortunately, this crash hit a little too close to home. I spent quite a few years working as a medic before our kids were born, alongside some truly amazing men/women. My husband has been a pilot for nearly twenty years. I have been with him for 17 of those. Flying is what he loves. It is in his blood. It is what makes him who he is... I have yet to meet another pilot who doesn’t feel the same.
Unfortunately, a lot of speculation has been flying around as to what happened that night. I’d like to kick that off to the side if I can (if only for this one post) and focus on some facts. What we do know, in actual fact, through the eyes of family and friends is that these were great men who touched the lives of many. They were husbands, they were dads, they were brothers, they were sons, and they were friends. Those that knew them personally or met them in passing, were better for it. How one dies should not be more important than how one lives their life. These men lived theirs to the fullest and will be deeply missed. Maybe we can spend a little more time focusing on that.....
- A pilot’s wife

[flyinthebug]

I normally don’t follow these threads...my husband does. Unfortunately, this crash hit a little too close to home. I spent quite a few years working as a medic before our kids were born, alongside some truly amazing men/women. My husband has been a pilot for nearly twenty years. I have been with him for 17 of those. Flying is what he loves. It is in his blood. It is what makes him who he is... I have yet to meet another pilot who doesn’t feel the same.
Unfortunately, a lot of speculation has been flying around as to what happened that night. I’d like to kick that off to the side if I can (if only for this one post) and focus on some facts. What we do know, in actual fact, through the eyes of family and friends is that these were great men who touched the lives of many. They were husbands, they were dads, they were brothers, they were sons, and they were friends. Those that knew them personally or met them in passing, were better for it. How one dies should not be more important than how one lives their life. These men lived theirs to the fullest and will be deeply missed. Maybe we can spend a little more time focusing on that.....
- A pilot’s wife

I can relate to every word you typed and shared here. My 1st twin first officer job was flying medevac in Northern Canada. I know the sacrifices these great men and women make. Thanks for reminding us of things we should all know...and thank you for posting!
FTB

[Bede]

Pilot's wife,

Great post. No doubt these were all exemplary individuals.

I think that we all cope with these sorts of things differently. The way I deal with a coworker dying is by trying to find out what happened as soon as possible so we can all learn from these sorts of tragedies. Sadly, sometimes one of my colleagues made a mistake which contributed to the accident chain. Perhaps some of this is speculation, but we all weigh this evidence and discount it as appropriate. In being on this board for the years I have, I have found that posters on this board are usually able to come up with a probable cause within a couple weeks- years before the TSB ever releases anything. The AvCanada Accident Investigation Team may not have the rigor that the TSB does, but I'd prefer to learn something a bit earlier.

[Colonel Sanders]

I might humbly suggest that if reading about accidents
bothers you, don't read the accidents forum.

When I dig a hole, you guys can all hoot and holler and
celebrate and talk about how you would have done
that tumble differently. Sure won't bother me any.

[RatherBeFlying]

The NTSB releases factual findings as they come out. It is an open agency that believes the information it has belongs to the public.

By contrast, nothing is heard from the TSB until the final report comes out some three years later.

When there is an accident, it gets the attention of pilots who are understandably interested in understanding how they can avoid getting themselves killed the same way. Of course it does take time to understand the precise accident chain, but it's not that difficult to identify the 1-3 most probable causes and integrate that into how we fly.

By contrast very little attention is paid by pilots to final reports when they finally emerge. Eventually memos emerge from flight departments or an article appears in the Aviation Safety Letter, but when an accident happens is the time people pay attention and the best time to absorb what lessons need to be relearned.

Sadly pilots tend to kill themselves in pretty much the same ways -- as do car drivers -- and it's a rare accident where something completely new claims a crew and the passengers.

[EA757]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... inute.html

[Inverted2]

Was part of that long cut in the wooods made by rescue crew? If not they sure went in on a very shallow angle and high speed for a helicopter less than 1 minute after takeoff.