Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

[Doc]

Was part of that long cut in the wooods made by rescue crew? If not they sure went in on a very shallow angle and high speed for a helicopter less than 1 minute after takeoff.

Them is pretty small trees. Not Douglas Firs. Most are less than 6 feet high. A rescue crew would just "walk" in. No need to clear.

[New Flyer]

Actually, the trees at that end of the field are much higher than 6', and the rescue crew was not able to just walk in. It was very difficult to reach the site.

[sky's the limit]

I think you guys are underestimating how fast a helicopter can accelerate, and the size (mass) of something like an S-76. There's a lot there.

[KK7]

From the news story posted previously, based on what lead investigator Daryl Collins said,

Based on their preliminary work, investigators have sketched a profile of the tragically short flight. The chopper departed from Runway 6 and began a climb in an easterly direction. It then began turning to the left to take up a northerly heading towards Attawapiskat. During that turn, Collins said, the chopper began to drop.

“Shortly after that is when the helicopter began making contact with the trees and making contact with the ground … we’re talking less than a minute after they departed,” he said. “There was a climb-out, there was a left-hand turn and there was a descent.”

The helicopter began to break apart as it hit the trees. From the initial contact with the trees to where the main wreckage came to rest, the crash site is between five and 12 metres wide and about 123 metres long. There was a fire after crash.

[armchair]

The info from the TSB seems to debunk the fire or mechanical theory, giving more credence to the black hole theory. While I can understand it, I find it so painfully hard to accept. In a world of pilots who live by lessons learned and advice from mentors, what can we learn or are we to make from yet another black hole crash, which happened to a top of the heap crew and machine?

[Sidebar]

... what can we learn or are we to make from yet another black hole crash, which happened to a top of the heap crew and machine?

Get a positive rate of climb, get on the instruments and stay on them!

[laticsdave]

Chris Snowball's funeral was held today (June 7, 2013). There were approximately 1000 people in attendance to pay their final fairwells to Chris. A lot of tears, some laughter, and a lot of self reflection in evidence. A very moving eulogy by Chris's Ornge and former Wabusk collegue, Derek Wharrie, which described Chris to a "T".
Absent from the proceedings was any representation from current Wabusk (Chris worked for them for approx 5 years) staff. Apparently the company reneged on their promise to provide transportation out of Moosonee for those pilots wishing to pay their respects to Chris at the funeral, doing so after the train (the only other way in or out of Moosonee) had left Moosonee for Cochrane, thus preventing their pilots from attending Chris's funeral. If there is any grain of truth to this, then Wabusk's management should hang their collective heads in shame.
RIP Snowy.

http://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/ ... cts-1-000/

[TheStig]

My thoughts go out to the families of those involved. Regardless of what turns out to be the cause of the accident we do know that both pilots were very experienced and this should serve as a reminder of how unforgiving aviation truly is. This past winter we saw one of Canada's most experienced bush pilots killed in Antarctica, and now this accident claimed the lived of two more professionals. We tend to think of our first couple years as the most dangerous of our careers and statistically thats true, but flying never gets any less unforgiving.

[pdw]

My thoughts are with the families as well ...

... what can we learn or are we to make from yet another black hole crash, which happened to a top of the heap crew and machine?

Get a positive rate of climb, get on the instruments and stay on them!

Heard no mechanical problems discovered. Yet how do you even tell for certain the instruments are all working when everything is smashed to bits ? The previous days were summerlike weather, where bugs begin, so IMO there's no telling what interference is possible there with the systems backing up those instruments on a 30 year old machine stored up there.

[Doc]

Heard no mechanical problems discovered. Yet how do you even tell for certain the instruments are all working when everything is smashed to bits ? The previous days were summerlike weather, where bugs begin, so IMO there's no telling what interference is possible there with the systems backing up those instruments on a 30 year old machine stored up there.

Sometimes it's not the "Boogie Man". Or wind shear. Or deep and dark mysteries. As much as we would like to hope there are....

[Bede]

Heard no mechanical problems discovered. Yet how do you even tell for certain the instruments are all working when everything is smashed to bits ? The previous days were summerlike weather, where bugs begin, so IMO there's no telling what interference is possible there with the systems backing up those instruments on a 30 year old machine stored up there.

A number of ways. For mechanical gauges, the needle will often impact the face of an instrument hard enough that a small indent can be detected in the face. For electronic instruments, there is often a module which stores data for the last few hours (not the FDR). If the module has not been destroyed by post crash fire, the data can be downloaded.

[GyvAir]

I think what PDW is saying - at least what I was thinking anyway - is that looking at such a severely demolished airframe, it's pretty fast for them to be implying that mechanical problems have been all but ruled out. Leads me to speculate that they found something pretty definitive on the CVR.

[Maynard]

If this had happened with an inexperienced crew, (or just less experienced), would doubts of A CFIT possibility be the same?

[Doc]

If this had happened with an inexperienced crew, (or just less experienced), would doubts of A CFIT possibility be the same?

Sadly enough, and more often than we'd care to admit, experience level has less bearing on CFIT accidents than it should. Mechanical failures, of a catastrophic nature, bringing down aircraft is such a rare occurrence that it is more often than not, pretty much on the back burner until some other piece of evidence comes to light.
I don't see the "doubts" of a CFIT of which you speak. More, a sense of "hope" that it could be something else? I'm afraid the end result would have been the same, though. It's a "wake up call" to all higher time time pilots out there to "beware" the evils to the night.
Also, I hope it serves as an example of why somebody should be looking into the necessity to do some of these flights in the middle of the night. (For example....did the patient pass away because the medevac failed to arrive? Or did he/she take the sked to YMO the next day?) You want to make these medevacs safer? Do the lion's share during daylight hours. I GUARANTEE YOU WILL SUCCED IN YOUR GOAL!!!!! Only a complete IDIOT will argue that night is as safe as day. It just is NOT!

[All Sides]

If this had happened with an inexperienced crew, (or just less experienced), would doubts of A CFIT possibility be the same?

I don't see the "doubts" of a CFIT of which you speak. More, a sense of "hope" that it could be something else?

Maybe, but it is still speculation. Mechanical failures are a lot more common in helicopters than airplanes. Could have been distracted by a IGB, TRGB, MGB or engine chip light, or possibly had a failure all together. I agree that most medevacs could wait till daylight though.

[Maynard]

I agree that the night flying is dangerous, but come winter as its dark from 5pm-7/8am, that's alot of unavailable time. We don't know why they crashed. If night time is an issue, we're assuming probable CFIT. If we assume CFIT, then chances are there could be more to the human factors. (Lack of sleep the day/night before, family issues causing distractions, etc). If those dangers were present during a day trip, that could lead to wrong altimeter or minimum settings on an approach to mins. Im not trying to support flying at 1am, but I don't think that day flying alone is going to reduce accidents.

[Doc]

Maybe, but it is still speculation. Mechanical failures are a lot more common in helicopters than airplanes. Could have been distracted by a IGB, TRGB, MGB or engine chip light, or possibly had a failure all together. I agree that most medevacs could wait till daylight though.

I should think (hope.pray?) that mechanical failures capable of bringing a machine down (even a helicopter) are still fairly rare things?
Even a catastrophic mechanical malfunction would be easier to deal with in daylight! Did this flight HAVE to go "RIGHT NOW"? I feel this is a serious issue, that SHOULD be dealt with.

Lets get a movement happening to NOT fly "tummy aches" till the morning? Okay??
Anybody know how "necessary" this flight was? Somebody must know if the patient had a "bobo" or a burst appendix?

[Doc]

I don't think that day flying alone is going to reduce accidents.

Did you actually write that, and hit "submit"? You honestly believe that only flying during the day would make no difference to accident rates? On medevacs? Where crews com on duty at 1600, insert their fingers up their bums till the call comes in 6 r 8 hours later? NOTHING is more tiring than doing NOTHING. Gawd man, I've done it. It's deadly! There will always be a need to fly at night. I'm NOT advocating "No night flying", but I am advocating, no "unnecessary" night flying in the northern communities. Se are NOT talking KORD to KJFK here......we're talking shithole to shithole...
I just don't want to see another one of these threads.

[Maynard]

So just to be clear, we're only halting medivac flights from northern sh@tholes? What about scheds out of nwo towns? 34yxl, 12yhd, 30yag,28/21yts, all susceptible to black hole. Im assuming the s76 didnt have egpws? How about making them mandatory on all night flying machines? Im not sure how the warnings work, im assuming similar to fixed Wong minus the too low flap call. And yes I did read it and hit submit.

[Doc]

Talking medevacs. Simply because of the stress levels, and the "hurry up offence" mentality that goes along with them. If you've done them, you know of which I speak. Otherwise why the opposition to what I think would improve safety? My apologies if I sounded abrupt. I think, the type of flights I'm aiming at, should be very obvious. Unnecessary, can wait till the light of day medevac flights. I suppose you "could" have a black hole off the south departure end at Toronto Island, or almost anywhere....it's all about exposure and frequency of occurrences. And "need".....and I just don;t see the "need".

[Cat Driver]

What is so difficult to understand about flying into a so called " Black hole "?

Are the flight instruments unreliable in the dark?

[Cat Driver]

It would be interesting to find out what the emergency really involved, it seems the patient survived the wait until daylight for transport.

[armchair]

Where crews com on duty at 1600, insert their fingers up their bums till the call comes in 6 r 8 hours later? NOTHING is more tiring than doing NOTHING. ........ I'm NOT advocating "No night flying", but I am advocating, no "unnecessary" ......we're talking shithole to shithole...

Not abrupt at all Doc...

So to summarize :

Unnecessary Night VFR from shithole to shithole = mandatory IFR

[Maynard]

What is so difficult to understand about flying into a so called " Black hole "?

Are the flight instruments unreliable in the dark?

Trying to reduce the risk.

As Long as humans are involved, the risk will always be present.
How do we prevent humans from making mistakes?

[Maynard]

So to summarize :

Unnecessary Night VFR from shithole to shithole = mandatory IFR

Would any medical carriers not be equipped with the tools to carry out an IFR flight?
I don't see how going IFR would have changed the outcome... on a night vfr flight out of ymo you wouldn't have your map on your lap looking out the window.