Things to be on the lookout for re: block time

[JungianJugular]

Hey gang,

I'm not ready yet but researching ahead of time for potential block time "packages".

Any advice for a first timer who has never done block time before from our experienced aviators here? What things should I be on the lookout for besides good maintenance and upkeep?

This is for time building in YYZ area.

[Doc]

Well, I find myself shopping for a 150/152, perhaps a 172. I'll be making it available for block time users. I'll be interested in selling blocks of at least 25 hours. Not interested in pilots using it for an hour here or there, but folks taking it on trips. Bugger off for a week or two. You'll actually LEARN something. The plane will be located in central Canada, not YYZ. I realize the sun rises and sets on the GTA, but not for this red rooster. Keep in touch. If you want to leave your BMW in my driveway, take off for a 20 hour adventure into the southern States, I'm your guy. Want an hour every Tuesday....well.look closer to the GTA.

[cap41]

I own a 150 in the YYZ area. I have tried a few times to work a deal out with a few potential pilots that would like to build time. As a person that would considering selling block time, the issues I have always struggled with is what is a fair price for both myself and the renting pilot. Than you have to add that person to your insurance policy. Most will want to take it cross country. My concern than turns to the "what if" issues. If there is a maintenance issue at an out of area airport? I am than t the mercy of that AME or FBO to fix the plane to get it back. Whats my cost going to be if i have to drive ten hours to fly my plane back? etc.

[Tail-Chaser]

I might be interested in buying around 25hrs a month in the CYVR area if anyone's got something with a prop and 3 wheels, or floats if ya got one.

[Shiny Side Up]

Any advice for a first timer who has never done block time before from our experienced aviators here? What things should I be on the lookout for besides good maintenance and upkeep?

Personally I would avoid purchasing block time for the same reasons I would avoid putting money down at a flight school. The only time I would consider it would be if I really knew the owner, and still I wold prefer to pay more, but pay as I go.

[flyinthebug]

Any advice for a first timer who has never done block time before from our experienced aviators here? What things should I be on the lookout for besides good maintenance and upkeep?

Personally I would avoid purchasing block time for the same reasons I would avoid putting money down at a flight school. The only time I would consider it would be if I really knew the owner, and still I wold prefer to pay more, but pay as I go.

This is good advice. I did my training at CFC in YQT (formerly the T Bay Flying Club). While I was in the middle of my CPL, the FTU and club went belly up...and I had $6,000 on account that I lost and was never able to recover. Shiny Side Up offers VERY solid advice about buying block time...make damn sure you know who your buying it from...or you could also end up 6K short in your account.

As an FYI, I know Doc and his offer would be 100% solid for both parties...might be worth the trip north for you. NW Ont is beautiful this time of year

Fly safe.

[Beefitarian]

I would agree to paying ahead by at least two hours until a relationship has been established. I would not expect the aircraft owner to just cut me loose on their plane without a way to know I'm going to pay them either.

I agree I would not pay for 20+ hours in advance. Especially to someone I barely knew. Then again If I could afford to I might have a plane.

[Shiny Side Up]

I agree I would not pay for 20+ hours in advance. Especially to someone I barely knew.

Even to someone I did know, maybe especially to someone I did know, money matters have a tendancy to ruin good friendships. Either way, when you put that much money down the risk goes up. Even renting from someone reputable, too many thing that can go wrong and leave you with not such a great deal.

I you must continue on this though, some things to think about.

1) How many people are in on this deal? How many block hours are alotted not used yet? The more users, the less of a good deal this tends to be. Booking the plane becomes an issue and the possibility for it going unavailable go up.

2) Who are the other users? Is there a means to have problems rectified? Nothing worse than discovering someone else's problem. This is a frequent problem with renting aircraft.

3) Where is the money allocated? Might not be your business, but again a maintenance issue. You might want to make it your business.

The same ideas probably could be applied to getting into an airplane partnership.

[Beefitarian]

3) Where is the money allocated? Might not be your business, but again a maintenance issue. You might want to make it your business.

The same ideas probably could be applied to getting into an airplane partnership.

I understand it could quickly seem unreasonable for me to ask too much about maintenance but that could be a sign that we might not be able to get along enough to function in this kind of arrangement.

If one person has much higher or lower standards for upkeep it will cause stress.

[Doc]

Beef, the whole point of selling block time is to get the money up front. Plus a K or so as a damage deposit. Otherwise, you'd be an idiot. IMHO at least. Want to pay "two hours up front" go to an FTU and pay full pop.

[Shiny Side Up]

I hate to say it Doc, but If I had to pay a damage deposit, that would sort of nullify the advantage of buying block time. The flight school doesn't ask for one after all, and I've paid enough "damage deposits" in my day to know its unlikely I'd get that money back. Anyone who'd pay up from for say 20 hours of flight time - unless they got a smokin' deal on it, and then you'd really have to question why - would be foolish, unless they established a working relationship first. For example, I'd be more willing to buy a five hour block and see how it works before buying another twenty.

On the other side of things renting the plane out, there's a reason why we don't do block time purchases anymore. The main thing is that there's is such a small market with it that benefits both to bother with the trouble. Most often people wouldn't use their full ammount of block time and then want their money back, or realise that once they paid it they couldn't afford it and want the money back. After all the kind of people that were in the market for the time, were pretty tight on cash to begin with. Lots of problems with the set up. Then there was the damage that would occur to the airplanes. Did you know that a 172 will fly with only half its elevator, apparently so well that the pilot wouldn't notice?

[EA757]

Jungian Jugular,

Just a couple of things, that I would recommend.

1. Get a copy of your lease agreement, signed by the lessor, and
take it to your lawyer, and find out exactly what your rights and
responsibilities are if you sign the agreement.

2. Never under any conditions pay money in advance.. However,
you must assure the lessor, that you do in fact have enough money
to cover the cost of the agreement. Open a trust account,
(your lawyer/bank can advise you how to do this). Your lawyer
will be able to set up a payment schedule so that it satisfies both
you and the lessor.

3. Seek out additional insurance, for everything.

4. Make sure every damn little thing is in writing... EVERYTHING.

Much luck in your travels.

[flyinthebug]

I hate to say it Doc, but If I had to pay a damage deposit, that would sort of nullify the advantage of buying block time. The flight school doesn't ask for one after all, and I've paid enough "damage deposits" in my day to know its unlikely I'd get that money back. Anyone who'd pay up from for say 20 hours of flight time - unless they got a smokin' deal on it, and then you'd really have to question why - would be foolish, unless they established a working relationship first. For example, I'd be more willing to buy a five hour block and see how it works before buying another twenty.

Both you and Doc are right on this. A relationship needs to be established and some trust built before you should buy block time from anyone...at the same time you can also rely on word of mouth references etc. If someone called me and asked me if it would be smart to buy 20 hours of block time from "Doc"...I wouldnt hesitate to tell them hell yes! I know Doc, have done business with Doc, and our deals have all turned out fair for both parties. Plus the fact ive known him forever helps too. My point is that your best friend may have a close business associate or even friend that owns an aircraft that he is willing to lease out on block time. If your best friend tells you to trust the guy, id suggest it is likely ok to trust him. Its the FTUs that I would warn against putting money on account with. If you show up for a flight and the doors are chained shut, there is no re course to get your money you had on account. It is a completely different "contract" when you purchase block time from a private owner.

As for damage deposits...if you are talking home/apartment rentals, I couldnt agree more. When you write the cheque for the damage deposit, pet deposit etc etc, kiss it goodbye. I have only once in my life ever received a damage deposit back from almost anything Ive ever rented lol. However, when it comes to private block time purchase on an aircraft...the damage deposit should be a prerequisite (sp?) for renting a block. It should be consistant with the deductible the owner carries on his aircraft. If his deductible is $1500 then that should be the damage deposit amount. The owner isnt benefitting from this in any way, only covering his a$$ in case you have an accident and he needs insurance to repair it. He is then guaranteed no out of pocket expenses as far as the repairs go (keeping him whole in the eyes of the law). If you bring the plane back and didnt run into an eagle during your block, a walk around and hand shake will get you your damage deposit handed directly back to you. I find most people that own a 152/172 for recreation and selling blocks on it, are usually very decent people to deal with, who really enjoy talking aviation with a CPL or a student building towards his/her CPL.

For what its worth to those that know me on here...you can safely buy a block from "Doc" and I assure you you`ll get your damage deposit back when you return the aircraft in the same condition it left in. That reference means absolutely nothing to you I know...but to maybe some people I know on here, it would help them make up their mind on what way to go.

To the original poster...
Send Doc a PM. He is much less grumpy in person and MUCH easier to deal with too lol. PM/email me if you need any info on exact location etc.

Fly safe all.

[Beefitarian]

Bug settle down, Doc already said he was parking his plane a bit North. OP wants to eventually find one in YYZ in the future when he's ready.

Beef, the whole point of selling block time is to get the money up front. Plus a K or so as a damage deposit. Otherwise, you'd be an idiot. IMHO at least. Want to pay "two hours up front" go to an FTU and pay full pop.

I want to fly thousands of hours, I'm never paying in advance for that. Treat me right and I'd start paying for larger blocks at a time though.

You have no problem giving me $20000? Would a 1958 C-172 @ $100/hour dry be ok? That's 200 hours and you can base it anywhere you like.

I understand the point of selling block time is to make sure you get the full amount of payment for the set amount of hours flight time, and money up front is a good way to go about that. There are just too many smiling crooks out there.

Thing is it seems like there there are more people willing to take that money and change their address to avoid you everyday. There are probably guys selling block time on planes they don't even own. How do you know if you're dealing with someone who is honest?

EA757 seems to have a few modern solutions. That trust account idea might work. Then both parties know the money is there wether, the plane disappears or it's flown the full amount of hours.

[Doc]

He'll Beef, somebody wants to buy 200 hours in my plane, I'll deliver it to Nassau for them!

[Beefitarian]

I certainly think it's fair to charge me full FTU price, certainly near it for the first flights so we can get to know each other. You could ride around with me too. After the first hour you might not want me man handling your delicate equipment.

[flyinthebug]

Bug settle down, Doc already said he was parking his plane a bit North. OP wants to eventually find one in YYZ in the future when he's ready.

Huh? lol. I have spoken to the OP in PM and email in the past and welcomed him to contact me should he want any further info on Doc or where he is located. Settle down? lol ok. You didnt know I was Doc`s Sales manager did ya Besides, if he did buy a block, its a beautiful flight along the shores of Superior and Huron enroute to YYZ from the north. Probably worth the cost of admission just for the experience of that flight.

Ill go settle down now

[AirFrame]

Any damage deposit larger than the deductible on the insurance is ludicrous. Ditto for any deductible larger than $500 on a C150 or C172.

[Beefitarian]

Doc`s Sales manager

Andyou'redoing a fine job. I'm looking into some of his 3hour 172 blocks.

[BibleMonkey]

Hey gang,

I'm not ready yet but researching ahead of time for potential block time "packages".

Any advice for a first timer who has never done block time before from our experienced aviators here? What things should I be on the lookout for besides good maintenance and upkeep?

This is for time building in YYZ area.

Don't make block time deals with a red neck like me, unless your wife agrees before hand.

Women is over-sentimental about their young/uns.

You sign one of your kids over to me, adoption papers all legal like, Give me a pot full of twenty dollar bills. No lawyers-they get all fussy about the size of the pot and such nonsense.

Take my plane-come back before harvest time. I give your sun burned kid back-all trained up in weed pulling, pot washing, steer branding and lasooing. Maybe some shooting. I trade your kid for the plane back, if no blue smoke is coming out of it.
I don't see no loopholes in this kind of deal.

If you have three kids, I want to look at their teeth before picking one out.

[Beefitarian]

He's in YYZ. That's Terantow not Brooks.

[BibleMonkey]

They got places to land airplanes in Terantow?

I thought it was all liberals, tall buildings and fashionable women .
Hm
Maybe if I ever go to newfoundland I could stop in and see it.
========================

JungianJugular , if you get to Alberta I'll give you one free hour on a little Cessna for posting unhelpful advice in your thread...
Best of luck...(:

[Beefitarian]

It's ok there I guess. Tall buildings? Yeah they got one o them towers. Never left the airport myself.

[EA757]

Mr. Beef,

Toronto is a beautiful place.
You must come and visit our fair city.
I'm sure you will fall in love with it.
Our people are very warm and enchanted
and very respectful.
Our food is world class.

Our traffic truly sucks any time of
the day or night...

We aren't perfect ...... yet.

Oh and one thing. Please spell Terantow
correctly...

It's spelled
"Toe wrong toe"

[BibleMonkey]

Tall buildings? Yeah they got one o them towers.

Dammit, now I'm wondering how many bushels of barley that CN tower would hold. Is it hollow?
One imperial bushel is 1.284 cubic feet....

I'm leaving this thread before I have to give him two hours free block time for threadjacking....