Hello all,
I'm preparing to get everything in order to begin flight training, ideally in August. I've been reading around the forums a bit (great resources), and while I've read a ton of great info, there are a few questions I have that I was hoping some of you might be able to help me with. (Note: my apologies if these answers are already all over the place and I missed them in my search)
Question 1:
When I took my familiarization flight, I expressed interest in the RPP. I was strongly advised against it. I asked about doing the RPP first and then upgrading to the PPL. The instructor told me that the 25 hours used to obtain the RPP do not all count towards the PPL. I.e. if I do the 25 hours towards the RPP, they won't all be applicable to upgrading to PPL, thus it'll take me more hours than it otherwise would have to get the PPL. Based on that, he said it simply isn't cost effective to do the RPP and upgrade.
What is your opinion on this? Is he correct? I got the impression I was being sold to a bit, but I don't actually know. If my end goal is a PPL, am I much better off to just stream directly to that rather than do the RPP first and upgrade to PPL later?
Question 2:
I got the impression while there that it's somewhat "standard" to do your training with the instructor who took you up on your introductory flight. However, I feel like I'd be a fool to just stick with the person I was assigned for the familiarization flight without inquiring further. As far as selecting instructors go, is it logical to say that an older, more experienced instructor with a large number of hours will be more beneficial than a very young instructor with much fewer hours? I have no problems with young instructors, but in the end, the person I choose is essentially going to teach me how to not kill myself. Is an RPP or PPL a simple enough license that a young instructor with fewer hours is more than good enough? Or should I be looking to get set up with someone older and with a great deal of flying experience?
Thanks
Ryan
Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
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RyanHealy29
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Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
It sounds like you've been fed a bunch of BS. All the hours from your RPP training can be used towards any higher license including the PPL, CPL, etc. (The only time that is not the case is if you do your training in an ultralight).
I got a PPL myself, although if I was doing it again today I would probably just get an RPP as most of my flying is just sightseeing. Just be aware of the limitations of the RPP - you can only carry 1 passenger, you can't fly a high performance plane, and you can't fly at night or IFR.
In my own opinion there is a lot of unnecessary cruft in the PPL syllabus, and it's worse in Canada than in other countries. I suspect this puts a lot of people off flying. If you're just flying for fun, PPL is probably overkill.
I got a PPL myself, although if I was doing it again today I would probably just get an RPP as most of my flying is just sightseeing. Just be aware of the limitations of the RPP - you can only carry 1 passenger, you can't fly a high performance plane, and you can't fly at night or IFR.
In my own opinion there is a lot of unnecessary cruft in the PPL syllabus, and it's worse in Canada than in other countries. I suspect this puts a lot of people off flying. If you're just flying for fun, PPL is probably overkill.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Do PPL, the difference is not in the hours, but the training.
Get the instructor you enjoy flying with, and who you feel is teaching you. It is not about the instructor experience as much as the personality. Initially you're learning basics. You don't always need a PhD to teach you that 1+1=2
Get the instructor you enjoy flying with, and who you feel is teaching you. It is not about the instructor experience as much as the personality. Initially you're learning basics. You don't always need a PhD to teach you that 1+1=2
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
I'd vote for getting the PPL directly, but not because you can't apply any RPP time... As Crunch says, all of the time "counts" towards your PPL.
Remember, if you're doing this because you like flying, whether you spend 25, 45, or 85 hours doing it doesn't really matter. You'll either decide in 5-10 hours that it's not for you (and you'll quit), or you'll love it so much that you're going be doing it for the rest of your life (in which case 25, 45, or 85 hours to get a license won't matter). Find an instructor you like, that you get along with really well, and fly at least once a week. You'll have your PPL in about a year, and you'll be on your way.
The RPP is false-economy marketing targeted at getting people in the door at flying schools because it looks cheaper. The only other use for it is for pilots who know they can't get the medical for the PPL. You need the same skills to fly either way, and short-changing yourself won't do you any favours in the long run.
Remember, if you're doing this because you like flying, whether you spend 25, 45, or 85 hours doing it doesn't really matter. You'll either decide in 5-10 hours that it's not for you (and you'll quit), or you'll love it so much that you're going be doing it for the rest of your life (in which case 25, 45, or 85 hours to get a license won't matter). Find an instructor you like, that you get along with really well, and fly at least once a week. You'll have your PPL in about a year, and you'll be on your way.
The RPP is false-economy marketing targeted at getting people in the door at flying schools because it looks cheaper. The only other use for it is for pilots who know they can't get the medical for the PPL. You need the same skills to fly either way, and short-changing yourself won't do you any favours in the long run.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Hi Ryan,
Excellent questions. Here is my opinion.
Answer 1: Your instructor is incorrect about the RPP time not counting for the PPL. While there is an argument to be made about skipping the RPP, I am of the opinion that doing the RPP flight test first is a better decision. Here's why: Usually RPP training goes like this: basic flight maneuvers (climbing, turning, etc.), upper air work (slow flight, stalls, etc), takeoffs and landings, first solo, circuit practice (may include short and soft field), "Procedures" exercises (forced approaches, precautionary landings, diversions), review for flight test, RPP flight test. PPL training looks like this: basic flight maneuvers (climbing, turning, etc.), upper air work (slow flight, stalls, etc), takeoffs and landings, first solo, circuit practice (may include short and soft field), "Procedures" exercises (forced approaches, precautionary landings, diversions), navigation (and instrument work), review for flight test, PPL flight test. Notice anything? The training is the exact same for both with the exception of navigation and instrument work (there is a bit more other stuff as well, but not enough to mention). The advantages of doing the RPP first is that you will have a permit to do 90% of the flying you will do as a PPL (day VFR with a passenger). If something comes up (lack of money, change in family circumstances, etc), you still have a piece of paper allowing you to fly an airplane with a passenger. In addition, you get practice for your PPL flight test by doing a "mini" PPL flight test. The downside is that you are paying for flight test review twice. For the school, the downside is that after the RPP, the student might not continue with the PPL costing them a few $$ in lost revenue. I would encourage you to write the PPL written test though as it counts for both the RPP and PPL.
Answer 2: You should discuss your needs with the chief flight instructor (CFI) and select an instructor best suited to your learning style. There is nothing wrong with a younger instructor (I was one once) as long as they are a good fit for you. For example, some instructors are good at cramming the most information into your head in the shortest possible time. This may be great if you're a quick learner, but you may feel frustrated if you are a slower learner than the instructor. On the other hand, some instructors might drag things out a bit frustrating the quick learner. As a general rule, I have found that instructors of similar age, gender and education to their students makes for the best fit. You are the guy paying the bills, you decide on your instructor. If you do not feel completely confident that you are making adequate progress, bring this to the attention of the CFI and ask for another instructor. Do not let anyone direct you somewhere where you are not comfortable.
When you start training, you should sit down with your instructor and set some goals/expectations. Flying regularly (3x / week), your RPP should take between 30-40 hours and your PPL 50-60. If you don't fly regularly, it will take much longer. Make sure you have finances covered before you start your training. Ask your instructor how long it will take to get your license if you fly regularly. If you commit to flying 3x per week, there is no reason that your first solo should take more than 15-20 hours. Ask to see the instructor's syllabus. Does the instructor have a plan for you or will every lesson be ad hoc?
All the best with your training.
Excellent questions. Here is my opinion.
Answer 1: Your instructor is incorrect about the RPP time not counting for the PPL. While there is an argument to be made about skipping the RPP, I am of the opinion that doing the RPP flight test first is a better decision. Here's why: Usually RPP training goes like this: basic flight maneuvers (climbing, turning, etc.), upper air work (slow flight, stalls, etc), takeoffs and landings, first solo, circuit practice (may include short and soft field), "Procedures" exercises (forced approaches, precautionary landings, diversions), review for flight test, RPP flight test. PPL training looks like this: basic flight maneuvers (climbing, turning, etc.), upper air work (slow flight, stalls, etc), takeoffs and landings, first solo, circuit practice (may include short and soft field), "Procedures" exercises (forced approaches, precautionary landings, diversions), navigation (and instrument work), review for flight test, PPL flight test. Notice anything? The training is the exact same for both with the exception of navigation and instrument work (there is a bit more other stuff as well, but not enough to mention). The advantages of doing the RPP first is that you will have a permit to do 90% of the flying you will do as a PPL (day VFR with a passenger). If something comes up (lack of money, change in family circumstances, etc), you still have a piece of paper allowing you to fly an airplane with a passenger. In addition, you get practice for your PPL flight test by doing a "mini" PPL flight test. The downside is that you are paying for flight test review twice. For the school, the downside is that after the RPP, the student might not continue with the PPL costing them a few $$ in lost revenue. I would encourage you to write the PPL written test though as it counts for both the RPP and PPL.
Answer 2: You should discuss your needs with the chief flight instructor (CFI) and select an instructor best suited to your learning style. There is nothing wrong with a younger instructor (I was one once) as long as they are a good fit for you. For example, some instructors are good at cramming the most information into your head in the shortest possible time. This may be great if you're a quick learner, but you may feel frustrated if you are a slower learner than the instructor. On the other hand, some instructors might drag things out a bit frustrating the quick learner. As a general rule, I have found that instructors of similar age, gender and education to their students makes for the best fit. You are the guy paying the bills, you decide on your instructor. If you do not feel completely confident that you are making adequate progress, bring this to the attention of the CFI and ask for another instructor. Do not let anyone direct you somewhere where you are not comfortable.
When you start training, you should sit down with your instructor and set some goals/expectations. Flying regularly (3x / week), your RPP should take between 30-40 hours and your PPL 50-60. If you don't fly regularly, it will take much longer. Make sure you have finances covered before you start your training. Ask your instructor how long it will take to get your license if you fly regularly. If you commit to flying 3x per week, there is no reason that your first solo should take more than 15-20 hours. Ask to see the instructor's syllabus. Does the instructor have a plan for you or will every lesson be ad hoc?
All the best with your training.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
As Bede says, you really need to figure out what type of flying you will be doing. The majority of PPL students give up before getting their license, so RPP is a good option if you just want to fly for fun.
Both RPP and PPL will (hopefully) teach you to fly an aeroplane safely. The main differences are (I believe):
- Much more navigation training for the PPL. However a lot of this is obselete if you have a GPS, and unnecessary if you only fly short distances over terrain that you know. The PPL teaches you how to fly hundreds of miles using a map and a compass with perhaps ADF and VOR for help, whereas the RPP assumes you'll be doing short trips over familiar terrain mostly just looking out the window.
- 5 hours of instrument training during the PPL, in case you run into poor visibility (although this is of dubious value anyway). With an RPP it is assumed you'll only be flying in nice weather short distances for pleasure, whereas with the PPL you could be flying longer distances in potentially marginal weather.
- More ground school with the PPL, a lot of which is overkill if you're just flying short distances for fun.
Both RPP and PPL will (hopefully) teach you to fly an aeroplane safely. The main differences are (I believe):
- Much more navigation training for the PPL. However a lot of this is obselete if you have a GPS, and unnecessary if you only fly short distances over terrain that you know. The PPL teaches you how to fly hundreds of miles using a map and a compass with perhaps ADF and VOR for help, whereas the RPP assumes you'll be doing short trips over familiar terrain mostly just looking out the window.
- 5 hours of instrument training during the PPL, in case you run into poor visibility (although this is of dubious value anyway). With an RPP it is assumed you'll only be flying in nice weather short distances for pleasure, whereas with the PPL you could be flying longer distances in potentially marginal weather.
- More ground school with the PPL, a lot of which is overkill if you're just flying short distances for fun.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Great advice from Bede. Especially the last paragraph follow it and you should save money.
Here are the requirements out of the Canadian Aviation Regulations for the RPP & PPL. I know there are some rules that I don't know where to find that you can't double dip for example doing an instrument rating at night, and counting the same hours towards the instrument rating and night rating, but I suspect with the RPP and PPL there will be no problem as the RPP should have the same exercises required dual and solo which should count towards the PPL as well. I used my 10hrs of fixed wing instrument training hours towards my PPL category conversion requirements and Transport Canada had no problem with that and saved me quite a bit of money. You can always call transport Canada to clarify or even better email them and get it in writing.
421.22 Recreational - Aeroplane - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of sixteen years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 4 Medical Certificate valid for a Pilot Permit — Recreational — Aeroplane.
(b) An applicant who meets the medical conditions specified on the Civil Aviation Medical Declaration and has signed it shall be deemed to have met the Category 4 Medical Standards, providing a physician licensed to practice medicine in Canada has signed Part C of the declaration.
(c) The permit is maintained by a valid Category 1, 3, or 4 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 60 percent (60%) in each of the following four mandatory areas, as well as in the overall written examination Pilot Permit - Recreational - Aeroplane (RPPAE), or Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (PPAER):
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(a) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the permit;
(b) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;
(c) Meteorology;
(d) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments, flight operations and human factors.
(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 25 hours recreational pilot flight training under the direction and supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating - aeroplane in aeroplanes operating with a Certificate of Airworthiness.
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 15 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 2 hours cross-country flight time, and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(ii) 5 hours solo flight time.
(5) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the permit, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane in accordance with:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(a) Schedule 2 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Recreational Pilot Permit – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests; or
(amended 2012/02/19; no previous version)
(b) Schedule 3 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests.
(amended 2012/02/19; no previous version)
(6) Credit
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version
An applicant for a Pilot Permit - Recreational - Aeroplane who holds a valid Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane may credit all dual and solo flight time acquired in ultra-light aeroplanes towards the experience requirement.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
DIVISION VI - PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE
421.26 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of seventeen years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 3 Medical Certificate valid for a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplanes:
(i) where an applicant holds a Category 4 Medical Certificate for the purpose of a Student Pilot Permit, the applicant shall upgrade to a Category 3 Medical Certificate prior to making application for the Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 or 3 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have:
(a) completed a minimum of 40 hours private pilot aeroplane ground school instruction on the following subjects:
(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,
(ii) Aerodynamics and Theory of Flight,
(iii) Meteorology,
(iv) Airframes, Engines and Systems,
(v) Flight Instruments,
(vi) Radio and Electronic Theory,
(vii) Navigation,
(viii) Flight Operations,
(ix) Licensing Requirements, and
(x) Human Factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(b) obtained a minimum of 60% in each of the following four mandatory subject areas as well as in the overall written examination Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (PPAER):
(i) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the licence;
(ii) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;
(iii) Meteorology;
(iv) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments and flight operations.
(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 45 hours private pilot flight training in aeroplanes under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane. A maximum 5 of the 45 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or flight training device.
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 17 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 3 hours cross-country flight time and 5 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 3 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(ii) 12 hours solo flight time, including 5 hours cross-country flight time with a flight of a minimum of 150 nautical miles which shall include 2 full stop landings at points other than the point of departure.
(5) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane in accordance with Schedule 3 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(6) Credits
(a) Knowledge
(i) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters may, when applying for the issue of Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane have the 40 hour ground instruction requirement reduced to 20 hours.
(ii) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters shall in lieu of completing the written examination PPAER obtain a minimum of 60% in the written examination Private Pilot Aeroplane Rating - Alternate Category (PARAC).
(b) Experience
(i) The total flight time must include a minimum of 30 hours in aeroplanes.
(ii) Where an applicant holds a pilot permit or licence in another aircraft category flight time credits shall be claimed as follows:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(A) Helicopter and Gyroplane
(I) a maximum of 15 hours towards the total flight time; and
(II) a maximum of 4 hours solo flight time, 2 hours of which shall be credited to solo cross-country flight time.
(B) Glider
A maximum of 5 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.
(C) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplane
A maximum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.
(D) Instrument Flight Time
An applicant who holds a private or higher type licence in another category shall be credited with instrument flight time acquired in the other category towards meeting the instrument experience requirements provided that the instrument flight time acquired in the other category is not credited towards the 17 hours of dual instruction flight time or the 12 hours solo flight time.
Here are the requirements out of the Canadian Aviation Regulations for the RPP & PPL. I know there are some rules that I don't know where to find that you can't double dip for example doing an instrument rating at night, and counting the same hours towards the instrument rating and night rating, but I suspect with the RPP and PPL there will be no problem as the RPP should have the same exercises required dual and solo which should count towards the PPL as well. I used my 10hrs of fixed wing instrument training hours towards my PPL category conversion requirements and Transport Canada had no problem with that and saved me quite a bit of money. You can always call transport Canada to clarify or even better email them and get it in writing.
421.22 Recreational - Aeroplane - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of sixteen years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 4 Medical Certificate valid for a Pilot Permit — Recreational — Aeroplane.
(b) An applicant who meets the medical conditions specified on the Civil Aviation Medical Declaration and has signed it shall be deemed to have met the Category 4 Medical Standards, providing a physician licensed to practice medicine in Canada has signed Part C of the declaration.
(c) The permit is maintained by a valid Category 1, 3, or 4 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 60 percent (60%) in each of the following four mandatory areas, as well as in the overall written examination Pilot Permit - Recreational - Aeroplane (RPPAE), or Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (PPAER):
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(a) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the permit;
(b) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;
(c) Meteorology;
(d) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments, flight operations and human factors.
(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 25 hours recreational pilot flight training under the direction and supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating - aeroplane in aeroplanes operating with a Certificate of Airworthiness.
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 15 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 2 hours cross-country flight time, and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(ii) 5 hours solo flight time.
(5) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the permit, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane in accordance with:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(a) Schedule 2 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Recreational Pilot Permit – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests; or
(amended 2012/02/19; no previous version)
(b) Schedule 3 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests.
(amended 2012/02/19; no previous version)
(6) Credit
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version
An applicant for a Pilot Permit - Recreational - Aeroplane who holds a valid Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane may credit all dual and solo flight time acquired in ultra-light aeroplanes towards the experience requirement.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
DIVISION VI - PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE
421.26 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of seventeen years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 3 Medical Certificate valid for a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplanes:
(i) where an applicant holds a Category 4 Medical Certificate for the purpose of a Student Pilot Permit, the applicant shall upgrade to a Category 3 Medical Certificate prior to making application for the Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 or 3 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30; previous version)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have:
(a) completed a minimum of 40 hours private pilot aeroplane ground school instruction on the following subjects:
(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,
(ii) Aerodynamics and Theory of Flight,
(iii) Meteorology,
(iv) Airframes, Engines and Systems,
(v) Flight Instruments,
(vi) Radio and Electronic Theory,
(vii) Navigation,
(viii) Flight Operations,
(ix) Licensing Requirements, and
(x) Human Factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(b) obtained a minimum of 60% in each of the following four mandatory subject areas as well as in the overall written examination Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (PPAER):
(i) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the licence;
(ii) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;
(iii) Meteorology;
(iv) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments and flight operations.
(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 45 hours private pilot flight training in aeroplanes under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane. A maximum 5 of the 45 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or flight training device.
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:
(i) 17 hours dual instruction flight time, including a minimum of 3 hours cross-country flight time and 5 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 3 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)
(ii) 12 hours solo flight time, including 5 hours cross-country flight time with a flight of a minimum of 150 nautical miles which shall include 2 full stop landings at points other than the point of departure.
(5) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane in accordance with Schedule 3 “Flight Test for the Issuance of a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane” of Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(6) Credits
(a) Knowledge
(i) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters may, when applying for the issue of Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane have the 40 hour ground instruction requirement reduced to 20 hours.
(ii) An applicant who holds a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane or a private or higher type pilot licence for helicopters shall in lieu of completing the written examination PPAER obtain a minimum of 60% in the written examination Private Pilot Aeroplane Rating - Alternate Category (PARAC).
(b) Experience
(i) The total flight time must include a minimum of 30 hours in aeroplanes.
(ii) Where an applicant holds a pilot permit or licence in another aircraft category flight time credits shall be claimed as follows:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)
(A) Helicopter and Gyroplane
(I) a maximum of 15 hours towards the total flight time; and
(II) a maximum of 4 hours solo flight time, 2 hours of which shall be credited to solo cross-country flight time.
(B) Glider
A maximum of 5 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.
(C) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplane
A maximum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time.
(D) Instrument Flight Time
An applicant who holds a private or higher type licence in another category shall be credited with instrument flight time acquired in the other category towards meeting the instrument experience requirements provided that the instrument flight time acquired in the other category is not credited towards the 17 hours of dual instruction flight time or the 12 hours solo flight time.
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Beefitarian
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Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
On the subject of differences between getting the RPP and a PPL, the RPP flight test is somewhat simpler than that for the PPL.
Some of those differences:
Slow Flight (Ex. 11) doesn't have to be quite as slow - 5kts above the stall
No steep turns
Precautionary: the examiner assigns a landing area
Navigation is to be done by following ground features (roads, rivers etc) - i.e. pilotage
No hood-work
Looser requirements for touch-down point on landing - first third of the runway vs. a specified point +400/-100ft
One stall demonstration and recovery vs. two
ATC/radio calls in the circuit are not part of the assessment
Some of those differences:
Slow Flight (Ex. 11) doesn't have to be quite as slow - 5kts above the stall
No steep turns
Precautionary: the examiner assigns a landing area
Navigation is to be done by following ground features (roads, rivers etc) - i.e. pilotage
No hood-work
Looser requirements for touch-down point on landing - first third of the runway vs. a specified point +400/-100ft
One stall demonstration and recovery vs. two
ATC/radio calls in the circuit are not part of the assessment
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Being a recent grad of PPL i can say If you have a good instructor by the time you get to flight test your not worried about how much easier the RPP is. The other thing i would say is i continue to learn every flight. I think the extra 15 hours can simply help with confidence and comfortability. Once you learn to fly you want to go further and further. I find flying into new areas can be a little intimidating until i do it and find out how easy it actually is.
I actually left one FTU for another because of instructor incompatibility. Remember you are a customer spending a fair chunk of change you should have a greater say in who you want as an instructor. I ended up going to another FTU with an instructor half my age. But, he was fantastic going the extra mile. He always accommodated my scheduling, was always available for a text or phone call with questions while studying for written exam.
I actually left one FTU for another because of instructor incompatibility. Remember you are a customer spending a fair chunk of change you should have a greater say in who you want as an instructor. I ended up going to another FTU with an instructor half my age. But, he was fantastic going the extra mile. He always accommodated my scheduling, was always available for a text or phone call with questions while studying for written exam.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Honest question:
Are there any FTUs that won't rent to a RPP holder due to insurance reasons?
Are there any FTUs that won't rent to a RPP holder due to insurance reasons?
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
One difference is post-permit. Where I rent RPP currency (how recently you have to have flown to be able to rent) is 14 days. For a low time PPL it is 30 days. If you go out of currency, then you need to do a check flight with an INS.
Now, that is not a bad thing, but you do have to pay for him.
My experience has shown that I have not been able to fly as much as I would have liked, and often had to watch the 30 day currency. Job, weather, aircraft availability all work against you there. Getting to 150 hours and moving to 60 day currency has been a boon - and if i'm 1-2 days over 30 days it makes no difference.
So, you'll end up paying for quite a bit of INS time, may as well use that money to get training for your PPL.
Now, that is not a bad thing, but you do have to pay for him.
My experience has shown that I have not been able to fly as much as I would have liked, and often had to watch the 30 day currency. Job, weather, aircraft availability all work against you there. Getting to 150 hours and moving to 60 day currency has been a boon - and if i'm 1-2 days over 30 days it makes no difference.
So, you'll end up paying for quite a bit of INS time, may as well use that money to get training for your PPL.
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RyanHealy29
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Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Awesome feedback everyone! Thanks a ton to you all for taking the time to post.
So from what I'm reading, the RPP isn't the evil thing it was made out to be, and does indeed apply entirely to the later PPL should I decide to go that route. I do want to have my PPL at some point, I just figured, as someone noted, that by getting the RPP first, at least I have the option to go up and fly for fun with a passenger along the way should I decide I want to.
Based on Bede's post, it looks like the syllabus for RPP is almost identical to the equivalent amount of time into the PPL. So based on that, do I even have to decide which one I want prior to being ready to start reviewing for the flight test? Assuming I do the PPL ground test, is there any reason I can't just start the training and wait until I'm nearing the 25 hour mark to decide to do the RPP or not?
Thanks again
Ryan
So from what I'm reading, the RPP isn't the evil thing it was made out to be, and does indeed apply entirely to the later PPL should I decide to go that route. I do want to have my PPL at some point, I just figured, as someone noted, that by getting the RPP first, at least I have the option to go up and fly for fun with a passenger along the way should I decide I want to.
Based on Bede's post, it looks like the syllabus for RPP is almost identical to the equivalent amount of time into the PPL. So based on that, do I even have to decide which one I want prior to being ready to start reviewing for the flight test? Assuming I do the PPL ground test, is there any reason I can't just start the training and wait until I'm nearing the 25 hour mark to decide to do the RPP or not?
Thanks again
Ryan
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
One trick you may consider is writing the PPL
written, which can be used for both the Rec
and the PPL, as long as you do the PPL flight
test within 24 months of the written.
written, which can be used for both the Rec
and the PPL, as long as you do the PPL flight
test within 24 months of the written.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
I'll add to my previous post. I decided to go PPL route as I have 2 daughters and a wife, and wanted the ability to take 3 passengers.
In the 3 years since my PPL i've taken all 3 a grand total of Once, and 2 passengers another couple of times. Most of my flying is solo or 1 passenger. I've also never been to the US, as I thought I would do quite often.
In the 3 years since my PPL i've taken all 3 a grand total of Once, and 2 passengers another couple of times. Most of my flying is solo or 1 passenger. I've also never been to the US, as I thought I would do quite often.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
One thing I am wondering...
I've got a friend who is building a homebuilt (CH750) and is wondering whether to go RPP or PPL when he gets his license. He was leaning towards the PPL because of 'more training' that he could probably use anyways.
However, he is going to need additional training on his specific aircraft anyways, so wouldn't paying more for an experienced free-lance instructor for less hours doing stuff like emergencies and (interesting) cross countries in his plane wind up making a better pilot than a 60 hour PPL on a 172?
I've got a friend who is building a homebuilt (CH750) and is wondering whether to go RPP or PPL when he gets his license. He was leaning towards the PPL because of 'more training' that he could probably use anyways.
However, he is going to need additional training on his specific aircraft anyways, so wouldn't paying more for an experienced free-lance instructor for less hours doing stuff like emergencies and (interesting) cross countries in his plane wind up making a better pilot than a 60 hour PPL on a 172?
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Colonel Sanders
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- Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:17 pm
- Location: Over Macho Grande
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Guys around here save money and use the loophole
where they start flying on ultralights (shudder) and
then go for their Rec permit.
Note that CAR 421.22(6) states that all ultralight
dual and solo time counts towards the rec permit
experience.
Then they write the PPL written - see CAR 421.22(3)
and they do their Rec permit flight test. Once they
have their Rec permit, they fly the @ss off a homebuilt
to build the hours for a PPL, and they do the PPL flight
test within 24 months of the PPL written, and it counts
for the PPL - you can use it twice.
So, if you have an ultralight and a homebuilt around,
you can save a bucket of money on your PPL. You
do an end run on the astronomical FTU prices.
where they start flying on ultralights (shudder) and
then go for their Rec permit.
Note that CAR 421.22(6) states that all ultralight
dual and solo time counts towards the rec permit
experience.
Then they write the PPL written - see CAR 421.22(3)
and they do their Rec permit flight test. Once they
have their Rec permit, they fly the @ss off a homebuilt
to build the hours for a PPL, and they do the PPL flight
test within 24 months of the PPL written, and it counts
for the PPL - you can use it twice.
So, if you have an ultralight and a homebuilt around,
you can save a bucket of money on your PPL. You
do an end run on the astronomical FTU prices.
Re: Rec Permit on the Way to PPL or Straight to PPL?
Ah... Loophole pilots. Can't say enough nice things about them.
