Can you get checked out on tail draggers...

[JamesB]

Hi All,

I just had a quick question...

Is it feasible to get checked out on a tail dragger by a experienced tail dragger/non-instructor pilot?

Thanks.

[cdnpilot77]

Short answer, yes. I did my tail dragger training in a beaver with a guy that was over 10000 hrs on the dhc-2 and half of that, dragging the rear end. He is not an instructor. Like a float/instrument rating etc the more experience the better, IMHO of course.

[Prairiefire]

Indeed, there's no such thing as a tail dragger rating.

[Colonel Sanders]

Sure, but at least around here, there are plenty of
wrecks of tailwheel aircraft that occured when the
so-called "experienced" pilot was in the right seat -
where he had never flown before - and he tried to
teach someone to land a tailwheel aircraft, despite
not knowing much about how to teach tailwheel,
or anything else for that matter.

I mean, what could go wrong, as you bounce down
the runway, yawing and lurching from one side to the
other?

It's important to realize that someone might be a
fantastic stick but be a horrible instructor.

My father is a poster child. F-86/F-104 weapons
test pilot. Incredible stick. Terrible instructor, despite
being qualified as both a military and civilian instructor.

If you insist on risking the airframe with someone who
is not an instructor, it might help the both of you very
much to read these:

http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/Tailwheel.htm
http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/Wheel_landings.htm
http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/AdverseYaw.htm
http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/Type.htm

Won't cost you a dime. Might save the aircraft. Not
many tailwheel aircraft left, and the sole cause is crappy
instruction.

PS Carrot. Remember the carrot.

[photofly]

I vote for a pittspecials.com page on the pitfalls of flying from the "other" seat for the first time.

[Cat Driver]

Piper and Cessna deserve the credit for making aviation safer and more enjoyable back in the fifties when they got rid of their tail wheel training airplanes and replaced them with nose wheel airplanes.

I was instructing at Central Airways in those days and witnessed the change over. We had both the Cessna 170 and the Piper tail wheel trainers.

If nothing else demonstrates the leap forward in ease of flying and the striking beauty of a nose wheel airplane compared to the tail wheel version you need look no further than the Tri Pacer.

When the authorities finally get around to getting rid of all radial piston engines we will finally have total safety because all airplanes will be idiot proof.

I dare not mention the killer light trainer that had no brakes on the right hand side that killed untold numbers of instructors thank God they don't use them for training anymore.

[Cat Driver]

I actually fly out of St. Thomas and unfortunately they've sold the Fleet Canuck.

That is the airplane I was referring to JamesB, if you read through the flight training forum you will find posts that prove the Fleet Canuck is just to dangerous for some instructors to risk training people on.

[Colonel Sanders]

Near CYXU

Two Venn diagrams. One is competent tailwheel
pilots. The other is effective flight instructors. Tiny
sliver of overlap between the two.

I see you are near London, Ont. You need to look
up an ATP/Instructor called "I_Reason" on this website,
and go for a flight in his Luscombe. He is in that tiny,
disappearing sliver of overlap between the two above
Venn diagrams.

[Bede]

Funny story. I was going to take a Citabria flying a couple years ago. I hadn't flown a Citabria since I was a teen. My dad happened to be on the field and when I told him I was just going to hop in and go he convinced me to fly with a local guy who owns a Citabria (I didn't know him well at the time) for a "check out". I reluctantly agreed (it was my dad after all). So I went flying with this guy I asked him afterwards how long he's been flying for (he's an old guy). "Just got my rec signed off a couple months ago!!" Thanks Dad.

[Cat Driver]

I see you are near London, Ont. You need to look
up an ATP/Instructor called "I_Reason" on this website,
and go for a flight in his Luscombe. He is in that tiny,
disappearing sliver of overlap between the two above
Venn diagrams.

That is the best advice you will find on this question.....

And I am being serious.

[FenderManDan]

Go for x/c to cysh and visit colonel. He can give you a "few" tips

[JamesB]

Thanks for answering my question and the advice guys. The reason I asked is because this summer I'm trying to get more involved at my local airport and I'm hoping to hook up with someone who has a tail dragger and would be willing to show a green newbie like me, how to fly it. I would love to do some flights with l_reason and the colonel , but as a high school student two things are blocking me: distance and $$$.

So if anyone knows anyone who knows anyone (near CYXU of course) a tip would be appreciated

Thanks again for the advice.

[Aeroplane17]

Near CYXU

Two Venn diagrams. One is competent tailwheel
pilots. The other is effective flight instructors. Tiny
sliver of overlap between the two.

I see you are near London, Ont. You need to look
up an ATP/Instructor called "I_Reason" on this website,
and go for a flight in his Luscombe. He is in that tiny,
disappearing sliver of overlap between the two above
Venn diagrams.

PT is no longer in the YXU area.

I actually fly out of St. Thomas and unfortunately they've sold the Fleet
Canuck.

That is the airplane I was referring to JamesB, if you read through the flight training forum you will find posts that prove the Fleet Canuck is just to dangerous for some instructors to risk training people on.

ENO wasnt sold, (its still for sale for about twice what its worth) its not used for training anymore because it was ground looped so many times and i think the insurance company had something to say about it.

Side note - ENO was the first airplane i ever flew. one of the nicest, pure flying airplanes i've ever flown but the luscombe beats it hands down for performance with the same engine.

Honestly i think confidence is a big part of flying a taildragger that pilots these days just dont have. They think the big,bad,squirrelly taildragger is just something super pilot use to fly.

My advice...make a taildragger your bitch. Make it do what you want it todo. "Make it look good out the window" is the best advice i ever got ...makes sense right? Probably not, and thats why i suck at instructing. Dont over think it. Its actually really simple.

[PilotDAR]

My advice...make a taildragger your bitch. Make it do what you want it to do.

Providing that going straight down the runway is what you want it to do, this is the most important advice possible for taildragger flying. I have seen too many taildraggers (and a few tricycles too) where the plane was doing what it wanted, and the pilot was a passenger with his hands on the controls. I was happily amazed at what my taildragger would do, if I use my feet and yelled at it a little bit!

A tricycle plane will go more or less straight by itself, the taildragger very certainly will not. But both types are equally good at going straight if you fly them straight, and steer with your feet so as to prevent directional excursions.

Yup, Cessna made the "Land-o-matic" tricycle trainers, and after that pilots seemed to get used riding in the princess, rather than flying the bitch.

[Colonel Sanders]

ENO wasnt sold, its not used for training anymore because it was ground looped so many times

Ok, that's St Thomas. At Brampton, I hear the Super
Cub was wrecked. At Guelph, I am told their Cessna
140 was wrecked. At Cobden, I was told their Citabria
was wrecked. I heard the SuperD at Rockcliffe was
damaged. All during instructional flights.

Spot the pattern?

i think confidence is a big part of flying a taildragger that pilots these days just dont have

Hey, I am the first person to wave the BS flag on the
fearsome fire-breathing dragon nonsense, but
you must agree that we are badly lacking for competent
tailwheel instructors, these days.

I can only imagine what would happen, if you took the
flight instructors that wrecked all those tailwheel aircraft,
and asked them to teach someone to land a Pitts or a
Christen Eagle (shudder). You want to do something
stressful, do that for a while. Then send them solo in
their single-seat.

With Gerry Younger retired (he's over 80, for gosh sakes,
he's earned it) I only know of three other competent
tailwheel instructors in all of Ontario and upstate New York:

I_Reason with his Luscombe
Joe Cosmanso with his Stearman
Tony Hunt with his Husky (since sold and of course wrecked
by the new owner who refused instruction from Tony)

There might be more, but as I have told Eric and Raymond
Cabanas, you guys are it. Freddy and I won't live forever,
and when we're gone, you guys are going to be the only
pilots that have a clue about tailwheel/tube&fabric/radial
engine/biplane/aerobatic/formation. I don't care if you
want to instruct or not, you're going to have to, because
everyone else is flying plastic nosewheel airplanes with
glass panels.

[GGCC]

Funny story. I was going to take a Citabria flying a couple years ago. I hadn't flown a Citabria since I was a teen. My dad happened to be on the field and when I told him I was just going to hop in and go he convinced me to fly with a local guy who owns a Citabria (I didn't know him well at the time) for a "check out". I reluctantly agreed (it was my dad after all). So I went flying with this guy I asked him afterwards how long he's been flying for (he's an old guy). "Just got my rec signed off a couple months ago!!" Thanks Dad.

Ha! ha! Thats a good one Bede........

I don't know what everyone is so concerned about I trained on the Fleet Canucks and put more than a few hours on a Citabria, a good ground loop or two in your training "concentrates the mind"

[Beefitarian]

Someone needs to build a good solid, tail wheel trainer, or even better several models that fly differently from each other.

They used to put skids on the wing tips of trainers around WWI, revive that. Possibly even use big, light wheels. Plus prop protecting skids. People could still wreck them but at least it would be more of a challenge giving the plane a sporting chance.

Just like proper training, a segment of pilots would guffaw the concept. It would be for pilots that could benefit from flying some tail wheel planes but normally are too timid to start with. An added bonus being more instructors could get better at teaching on them. ...eventually.


Hi ggcc, how's it going?

[Colonel Sanders]

Someone needs to build a good solid, tail wheel trainer

I dunno, man. If no one has done it in the last 100 years,
I'm not sure anyone is going to do it in the next 100 years.

Not a lot of demand for it, frankly. Tiny market. Not good
when it comes to amortizing certification costs. You can't
teach on a homebuilt. A big no-no in both Canada and the
USA.

The best thing for tailwheel/training is the most docile aircraft
in the world, which is the Citabria/Decathlon IMHO. Make them
harder to wreck. People still will, of course, with sufficient effort,
but I'm not sure you can entirely remove skill from tailwheel
flying, or from aviation for that matter.

[Beefitarian]

I know, my ideas are not bad, just expensive. Sometimes nearly pointless. The point of this one is to add some skill via more tail wheel flying for more pilots.

Funny thing is, just a safety/training wheel system would be too expensive to certify. Never mind a whole airplane with upgrades like higher useful load and a stronger wing.

Sopwith Tabloids are not 100 years old just yet.

[iflyforpie]

You can go to American Champion today and buy a brand new Champ for about $100,000. I don't think they are flying off the lot like the 162s and DA20s are. There just isn't the market for them or the desire to fly them.... everyone wants to fly jets or turboprops.

Also, lots of the arguments over the superiority of tail wheel airplanes are out of date.... much like standard vs automatic transmissions. You can do off-strip perfectly fine in a nosewheel aircraft... look at the Twin Otter, the Quest Kodiak, and the CH701. Caravans aren't as good, but they were designed as a Navajo replacement, not an Otter replacement.... plus you'd be surprised what they do with them in the jungle. The nose wheel if made strong enough will keep the aircraft from flipping, and if made high enough will have just as much prop clearance.

Drag? No. Vans says you get a whopping 2-3MPH decrease in airspeed if you add an 'A' to your RV.

Maintenance? Again, no. I've spent far more time messing with tailwheel locking springs than a nice castoring spring nose gear that is on every plane from the Grumman AA1 onwards.

The final push is insurance, experience, and the age and availability of the aircraft. Unless you really need a tailwheel aircraft because there is nothing else that will do what it does (Ag planes, aerobatics, old DeHavilland products), there simply isn't the need.

However, like so many soon-to-be lost arts... there is just something about a tailwheel airplane. I know I will never shift my old four on the floor as fast as buddy in his Audi with Tiptronic... but you can be sure I'm having a lot more fun! The same with savouring exposing a silver emulsion to light vs blazing away with a digital sensor, or growing your own food vs buying it.

[Shiny Side Up]

You can go to American Champion today and buy a brand new Champ for about $100,000.

The price of new taildraggers is sort of an ouch compared to what one can still get old ones for. I'm not sure if they'll disappear thoug, since the old ones are slowly disappearing, there has been somewhat of a resurgance, those new Viruses come as taildraggers after all which I found as bit of a suprise, so obviously there's a market.

Drag? No. Vans says you get a whopping 2-3MPH decrease in airspeed if you add an 'A' to your RV.

Apparently the chief reason to make an 'A' is the placement of the gear box and the wing bolts is such a pain on the nosedragger that its easier to learn how to fly your new taildraggin' RV than to put in the bolts. Some smashed fingers and a lot of yelling and cursing can easily over come one's apprehension over flying a tailwheel.

However, like so many soon-to-be lost arts... there is just something about a tailwheel airplane. I know I will never shift my old four on the floor ...

What would date you though is if you still shifted your "three in the tree".

[pelmet]

ENO wasnt sold, (its still for sale for about twice what its worth) its not used for training anymore because it was ground looped so many times and i think the insurance company had something to say about it.

Side note - ENO was the first airplane i ever flew. one of the nicest, pure flying airplanes i've ever flown but the luscombe beats it hands down for performance with the same engine.

Hey, I flew ENO once. Got some dual from a guy named Larry Barret I think. Pretty straight-forward aircraft.

[PilotDAR]

I expect that some of the difficulty in finding competent tailwheel training is because for the instructor to be competent, they have to have done lots of that kind of flying. There's simply not lots of that kind of flying being done anymore - much less by pilots who are going to take that skill back to new pilots as grey haired instructors, or new pilots who are willing to pay that experienced pilot what they are worth!

The tailwheel training I received in 1978 was woefully inadequate, and put me off taildraggers for some time. The lure of flying the Tiger Moth a few years later intrigued me beyond my fear. After that, I simply learned by a bit of osmosis, and a lot of trial by fire. The most fearful being the only pilot available to fly a 185 and two 180's on wheels off a water covered frozen lake at night, onto an unlit paved runway, so as to tie them down rather than their being blown away by an impending storm. I guess there was less perception of my wrecking them than the storm doing it!

Considering that some instructors really don't understand the nuances of landing any airplane, the widely varying nuances of landing a taildragger must be much more challenging yet.

The same landing technique will work on any tricycle aircraft - touch it down gently, as slowly as possible, mains first, and keep the nose light, will work well. Taildragger, on the other hand may demand techniques which vary widely from the next one in the row. I learned in terror that the optimum technique for the Siai Marchetti 1019 is exactly opposite to my Teal. In both cases, I learned this on my own, because the very limited training I took on each type did not point to the differences as being important - but they were vital. Yes, each aircraft could be landed the other way, but it was messy, and risky, in my opinion. After scaring myself, I knew exactly what question to ask - of the grey haired warbird pilot friend of mine. I won't make that mistake again - but there must still be others!

So we're left with the opposite of one size fits all for taildragger technique. And, it is likely that the "training" will take place in only one type, so at best, the varied techniques are all trained on that one type. The real benefits of one technique over the other never come to light - unless the instructor has the experience... um....

One of my best pilot mentors, who is eminently capable of taildragger training, told me that he would not train taildragger on some types (Teal at the top of his list) because for the candidate pilot to learn to recover an impending groundloop, they had to begin to enter one. When they did, you could not recover it either.

I think this boils down to "need" vs "supply" vs "demand". There sure is a need, but there is not enough demand to pay for the required supply of this training at the required competence level. You can apparently get the training at less than the required competence level (as long as there are enough training aircraft). So, I suppose, prospective taildragger candidate pilots, you'll have to create the market for the service you know that you need.

[Cat Driver]

Pilotdar, you will be pleased to know I have decided to go into a partnership with one of the posters here on Avcanada to finish building my Cub.

He is a young engineer / pilot that does not have any desire to go to the airline side of aviation.

When he finishes building it we will be offering tail wheel and advanced airplane handling skills training.

The course will be top notch and also affordable.

. E.

[PilotDAR]

we will be offering tail wheel and advanced airplane handling skills training

Excellent! Then, you can focus on converting the CriCri to tailwheel for multi engine taildragger training... Oh, wait, where will the instructor sit? Never mind.....