Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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Old fella
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by Old fella »

single_swine_herder wrote:Just for the record in this thread, not everybody that continues to work beyond the first day they qualify to retire does so because they need the money.

As difficult as it is for some posters to understand, there actually are people that enjoy doing what they're doing because it's what they've wanted to do since they were about 4 years old ...... and going to "work," isn't "work" at all.

The only exception is the time spent having to tolerate the depressing ramblings of Sad Sacks that see everything in life as a downer, the world is out to F them over, their lives are in disarray, and they expect me to be their counsellor while in the workplace.

If you don't like it and aren't willing to act professionally .... get out and do something else somewhere else instead of poisoning the workplace as surely as if you were putting Arsenic in the drinking water cooler.

I'll continue to "work" in my chosen area of interest until I feel ready to leave. If that causes those wanting my job to be anxious about what calendar date they'll get their turn in my chair .... too bad.

For those who seem to detest what they are doing and feel they are like whipped Donkeys in a third world country and screwed over, frankly I feel sorry for you.

Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie wrote:
whipline wrote:At present I don't want to work until 75 because you stayed longer and limited my wage. I want the chance to finish early not late.
So basic human rights are less important than your career expectations.

Does that sound about right?
For feck's sake. Working at Air Canada isn't a basic human right. At any age. There used to be a rule, that everyone knew and agreed with when hired, that pilots retired at age 60. Does that sound about right? Pilots at 60 weren't told they couldn't seek gainful employment anywhere else, ever again. They weren't beaten up by homophobes, made to sit at the back of a bus, or paid less than anyone else (actually, they made a lot more than anyone else). They weren't denied shelter or drinking water or legal protection or the right to vote. THOSE are basic human rights. The only thing they weren't allowed to do was continue working at Air Canada. This was "sprung" on them in their contract when they were hired, but I suppose many of them only had a mere several decades to prepare for the day they knew would come. Well, now instead of actually KNOWING the day they will be done collecting income and start collecting a pension, they get to find out on the day they don't pass a medical or ride, I suppose. Enjoy that. I guess that's what passes for progress in Canada these days. Just make sure your son or grandson doesn't go into aviation. Better yet, don't reproduce. There's obviously too many people if someone making the money a senior AC pilot is can't afford to retire at 60.

Grandiose rhetoric that frames an employment issue in one employee group, in one company, in one industry, on the same scale as basic human rights as most people in the world would think of them, is ridiculous.

I'm actually sorry for those who are so financially ignorant, have so completely mismanaged their personal affairs, or just so desperately need to tie their identity to some stupid job that they have no choice but to work harder and longer than they used to.

But throwing around terms like "discrimination" and "human rights" only cheapens real world issues, which makes me see red. It was simple greed, and as it usually does, greed won.
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by single_swine_herder »

Old fella wrote:[Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:

Nope .... incorrect assessment Old Fella ..... I just am not among those who seem to hate their job right from their days flying a 185 on floats through to the present day, revel in gossipping about how screwed up things and people are in their opinion, show up for work with a hang-dog look and body language, upset with their general lot in life, living in a whirpool of personal misery and disatisfaction that seem to spread it to colleagues as if they were carrying Typhoid.
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by Mig29 »

complexintentions wrote:
Rockie wrote:
whipline wrote:At present I don't want to work until 75 because you stayed longer and limited my wage. I want the chance to finish early not late.
So basic human rights are less important than your career expectations.

Does that sound about right?
For feck's sake. Working at Air Canada isn't a basic human right. At any age. There used to be a rule, that everyone knew and agreed with when hired, that pilots retired at age 60. Does that sound about right? Pilots at 60 weren't told they couldn't seek gainful employment anywhere else, ever again. They weren't beaten up by homophobes, made to sit at the back of a bus, or paid less than anyone else (actually, they made a lot more than anyone else). They weren't denied shelter or drinking water or legal protection or the right to vote. THOSE are basic human rights. The only thing they weren't allowed to do was continue working at Air Canada. This was "sprung" on them in their contract when they were hired, but I suppose many of them only had a mere several decades to prepare for the day they knew would come. Well, now instead of actually KNOWING the day they will be done collecting income and start collecting a pension, they get to find out on the day they don't pass a medical or ride, I suppose. Enjoy that. I guess that's what passes for progress in Canada these days. Just make sure your son or grandson doesn't go into aviation. Better yet, don't reproduce. There's obviously too many people if someone making the money a senior AC pilot is can't afford to retire at 60.

Grandiose rhetoric that frames an employment issue in one employee group, in one company, in one industry, on the same scale as basic human rights as most people in the world would think of them, is ridiculous.

I'm actually sorry for those who are so financially ignorant, have so completely mismanaged their personal affairs, or just so desperately need to tie their identity to some stupid job that they have no choice but to work harder and longer than they used to.

But throwing around terms like "discrimination" and "human rights" only cheapens real world issues, which makes me see red. It was simple greed, and as it usually does, greed won.

+ 100
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by Old fella »

single_swine_herder wrote:
Old fella wrote:[Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:

Nope .... incorrect assessment Old Fella ..... I just am not among those who seem to hate their job right from their days flying a 185 on floats through to the present day, revel in gossipping about how screwed up things and people are in their opinion, show up for work with a hang-dog look and body language, upset with their general lot in life, living in a whirpool of personal misery and disatisfaction that seem to spread it to colleagues as if they were carrying Typhoid.
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!! Company loves misery or misery loves company - I don't know how to spin it. Glad to hear you are not amongst the 'haters" but your vast descriptive tone suggests to me , you are bothered by misery dwellers.If I may(and you are willing to accept my words) - don't let it prey on you. Then again I never experienced "haters" to that extent in my 60 odd years(35+ in this racket). And again , maybe I lived a sheltered life in the 70s-80s.

Cheers
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

Basic greed, yep, on both sides of the fence, no one greater, or less than the other.....NEXT!

One thing that many of you are not aware of, is where the age 60 rule really came from. The company wanted to get rid of some pilots, they did a deal, and surprise, age 60 was the new norm. It was never voted in, and was not put officially into the contract until many years later. There was never a vote, and it has been challenged as far back as the early 70's.

Oh, by the way, the Federal Government Changed the discrimmination rules of forced retirement. It was not any body at AC or any other group involved in this court issue. It was the Federal Government, and you dont have to worry about the FP60 group, acpa has your back.

Whipline

Doubt you are AC pilot. If you were, you would be able to see on AC aeronet, that not all the pilots who are retiring, or were force retired, (say over the last 7 years) were senior. Some, were F/O and some were Relief Pilots. So try to get some facts before you write about a subject that is beyond your scope.

Suggest many of you take the time to look at this article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6a ... %2C4028935
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

Some.... minor Info for the champions of age discrimination on this forum:

History of age 60 in USA:

History of age 60 in Canada: (at the bottom of this post)


James A. Fitts says his parents thought he was crazy when as a boy of 5 in 1940 he began drawing pictures of sleek airplanes with swept-back wings and no propellers. But Mr. Fitts was convinced that he would one day pilot such seemingly outlandish aircraft, and he was right.

After flying fighters and reconnaissance jets in the Air Force, he spent 26 years as a commercial airline pilot, logging 31,000 hours in the air. But his career ended abruptly two days before he turned 60 on June 18, 1995, when, like all commercial airline pilots, he was forced to retire.

''I miss it so much,'' said Mr. Fitts, who still sometimes co-pilots a private jet for a corporation close to his home near Des Moines. ''I just love hauling people around.''

At a time when Americans are living longer than ever, when Congress is raising the Social Security retirement age to 67 from 65, and when Senator John Glenn, 77, is about to go back to outer space, the Federal Aviation Administration is still forcing airline pilots to retire at age 60, in one of the last remaining examples of Government-sanctioned age discrimination.
The so-called age-60 rule, which applies only to commercial airline pilots, was put in place in 1959 to promote safety. But the rule was disputed from the beginning, attracting numerous legal challenges and studies that concluded the rule had no medical rationale.

Still, the F.A.A. has steadfastly maintained that despite the growing sophistication of flight simulators and other tests, there is no way to determine whether pilots over 60 might suddenly drop dead in the cockpit or suffer a ''subtle degradation'' of their mental faculties.

Tomorrow, in the latest bid to overturn the rule, the Supreme Court will announce whether it will hear the appeal of a group of pilots who contend that the regulation violates the Federal law barring age discrimination. But even if the court chooses not to take up the case -- a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals voted 2 to 1 last July to uphold the rule -- the older pilots have vowed to fight on.

''If Glenn can go into space at 77, why can't we fly to Cleveland at 60?'' said Bert Yetman, 65, the president of the Professional Pilots Federation, which has taken the lead in opposing the rule.

The answer, according to former F.A.A. officials, airline executives and sympathetic younger pilots, is not concerns about safety but politics. The Air Line Pilots Association, which represents most of the country's 80,000 commercial airline pilots, once led the fight against the age-60 rule. But now the union is its biggest champion.

Union officials say their members believe the rule enhances safety. But others say the union is more concerned that allowing older pilots to fly longer would make it more difficult for its younger members to move up the seniority ranks into the captain's seat.

''It's not a medical issue,'' said Donald D. Engen, the F.A.A. head in the mid-1980's. ''The younger guys want the older guys out because they want to be captain. Captains draw the bigger pay.''

Since 1987, mandatory retirement has been outlawed for all but a handful of jobs. Aside from the pilots, the exceptions -- including air traffic controllers and police and fire officers -- were permitted by Congress and aroused little controversy.

A demographic bulge of pilots who joined the airlines in the late 1960's and 70's is rapidly approaching 60, bringing more pilots than ever face to face with the rule. Many older pilots, especially those with lucrative pension plans, favor early retirement. They fear that raising the retirement age would threaten a special tax exemption that enables them to collect their full corporate retirement benefits without penalty at 60 rather than 65.

But many of the pilots fighting the age-60 rule worked at airlines that went bankrupt in the aftermath of the industry's deregulation 20 years ago. Because every airline operates on a seniority system, each time the pilots joined a new carrier they were forced to work their way up from lower-paying jobs in the second or third seat in the cockpit.

''It's kind of ironic that just when the slot machine starts to pay off, you have to pack it in and walk out of the door,'' said L. Brandon Smithe, 58, a captain at American Airlines who spent 18 years at Continental Airlines before it entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1983 in order to break its union contracts.

While pilots his age who spent their careers at American will retire with a lump sum of $2 million plus a pension, Mr. Smithe said he would only receive about a quarter of that.

Compared with the main pilots' union, the older pilots have little influence. The Air Line Pilots Association contributed nearly $900,000, mostly to Democrats, in the last campaign and $1.3 million in 1992 and 1993, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington research group.

Two years ago, when the Professional Pilots Association persuaded the House Appropriations Committee to authorize a new study of the rule by the National Transportation Safety Board, the Air Line Pilots Association got the full House to prohibit the safety board from spending any money on the examination.

David Hinson, the F.A.A. administrator from 1993 to 1996, said it was clear to him that his superiors at the Transportation Department were not eager to take on the rule. ''It was a subject that they did not want to put on the table,'' he said.

For their part, the major airlines are now indifferent to the rule; some would like to see experienced pilots fly longer while others do not want to upset a system that seems to work.

Supporters of the rule acknowledge that the choice of 60 is arbitrary. It originated in the 1950's, when three airlines, including American, tried to force their pilots to retire at that age, citing airline safety. After a labor arbitrator ruled against the airlines, C. R. Smith, then American's president, appealed privately to his friend, Elwood Quesada, a former Air Force general who was the F.A.A.'s first administrator.

General Quesada got the rule passed in December 1959, even though an internal memo from the agency's Civil Air Surgeon expressed concern that the agency had no ''scientific or factual justification.'' General Quesada retired a year later and joined the board of American Airlines.
''I don't think anybody has ever said that there is anything magical about an age-60 limit,'' said Dr. Jon Jordan, the Federal Air Surgeon. The point, he said, was that the risk of catastrophic illness or mental deterioration rose with age and that 60 was seen as the appropriate place to draw the line.

But the rationale for picking 60 has become less supportable over the years. Aviation authorities in Europe, Australia and elsewhere that once followed the F.A.A. have raised the mandatory retirement age for their airline pilots to 65. At least two F.A.A.-sponsored studies since 1981 have concluded that there is no evidence that accident rates increase as pilots get older. The most recent study, in 1993, concluded the F.A.A. could ''cautiously'' raise the age to 63.

The older pilots say they must still pass the semiannual physical exam required by the F.A.A. They are willing to undergo other tests, like the quarterly checkups on a flight simulator now required in Britain, where the retirement age was raised to 65 four years ago.

But after its last review of the rule in 1995, the agency not only decided to maintain 60 as the cutoff, it also extended the rule to commuter planes capable of carrying 10 or more passengers, saying it would raise the level of safety. Previously, pilots of commercial planes able to carry up to 30 passengers did not have a mandatory retirement age.

Dr. Jordan said the F.A.A. could not extend the age limit because there were no data available on the performance of commercial airline pilots over 60.

But the F.A.A. has refused repeated requests to waive the rule for selected pilots in order to obtain such data because, Dr. Jordan said, the lack of data means there is no sure method to choose a test group of pilots that could safely fly past 60.

''The agency's complacent acceptance of this Catch-22 situation, particularly given that the result is the continuation of a government-imposed regime of age discrimination, seems to me to be the epitome of arbitrary action,'' Judge Patricia Wald wrote in her dissent to last year's Court of Appeals decision upholding the rule.

The pilots say that the main reason airplanes have two-member crews is so that if the pilot becomes incapacitated, the co-pilot can take over. They add that the experience gained from years in the cockpit makes older pilots actually safer.

''If you were wrongfully accused of murder, would you go out and find a first-time lawyer or get F. Lee Bailey?'' said David Cronin, 69, a former captain with United Airlines.

In 1989, Mr. Cronin drew on his experience to bring a crippled 747 to a safe landing in Hawaii in 1989 after one of the plane's cargo doors blew off, killing nine passengers. A month later, just before his 60th birthday, he was forced to retire.

Mr. Cronin and other opponents of the rule argue that the F.A.A. regularly allows younger pilots who have had heart attacks, psychological problems or difficulties with drugs and alcohol to return to the cockpit.

''I never had a day sick, never had an organ transplant, never had a drug or alcohol problem,'' said Mr. Yetman, the Professional Pilots Federation president, who flew for Southwest Airlines until he turned 60 in 1993. ''I just had an unfortunate birthday.''



History of age 60 in Canada:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6a ... %2C4028935
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43S/172E
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 43S/172E »

A long time ago it was agreed by a majority of pilots that retirement would be contractually as opposed "mandatory" to a certain age of 60. In the vast majority of people who I talked to over the years they were quite happy to be "fired", "pushed out the door" or ( insert flavour of the day here).

There was a time in the 80's when the then Vice-President of Flight Operations Charlie Simpson came up with a Voluntary Severance Package to prevent lay offs. Charlie and the then President of CALPA had a $20:00 wager over how many pilots would take the VSP to which Charlie said no more then 3 as everyone loved their job. The VSP was cancelled when it went over a 100 pilots and Charlie lost the wager.

In a previous post reference is made to the late Ross Stevenson who I might add died at age 62 of brain cancer. Ross was known as a "me myself party of 3" kind of guy who for example when fruit baskets were part of the contract took sole possession of the the fruit basket as it said pilot's fruit basket and since he was Captain it belonged to me as I was the pilot. The other two on the scene did not count......

Another piece of irony was last year when there was a Globe and Mail article on a certain Captain who was "forced" to retire and did a horrible job of P/R for the fly past 60 crowd was alleged as I was told bragged in flight planning how he called Ross Stevenson up late at night and berated him for holding up his career.

So we have gone from the contractually agreed retirement age of 60 to a how long do you want to stay. Since this has been decided with little input of the end users of the system this as hard as it may sound time to move on and protect what ever is left in the profession.

My turn came the view at the top was splendid but I considered myself a hypocrite if I wanted to stay as others left before me it was my time to exit to which I did.

Surprisingly life is grand but the only downside is the funerals of former colleagues and friends who now are passing with a distressing frequency.

In closing enjoy your career sometimes life will give you a lemon so make lemonade and do not let the pedestrian comments of a few interfere with your thoughts
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by Jack In The Box »

The way I see it, is that I am working for Air Canada and they can well make the terms of employment as they please and my options are to like it, suck it up, or go elsewhere. Not every work rule has to, nor should be, negotiated by a union.

Then again good luck getting THAT to fly in this day and age of entitlement :roll:
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by MackTheKnife »

43S/172E wrote:A long time ago it was agreed by a majority of pilots that retirement would be contractual"

"So we have gone from the contractually agreed retirement age of 60 to a how long do you want to stay. Since this has been decided with little input of the end users of the system this as hard as it may sound time to move on and protect what ever is left in
Another Fallacy !

You may have a different contract than I ever had since I have never been able to find where it was contractual. Please show us where in the contract, Calpa or ACPA, where it says anything in reference to age 60! Give us a reference. Chapter & Verse please. I would like to read it.

As per little input ......In my entire career with the airline, the pilots never had a say in the establishment of a set retirement age as it was NEVER put to a vote so it's only fitting they have little input when it was abolished.

When I was forced out I felt exactly as per the title of this thread. Some manager I had never even met before showed up at the gate and shook my hand. As far as I was concerned he might just as well have said " Happy Birthday, guess what, you're fired"


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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by TheStig »

Once again, mandatory retirement no longer exists at Air Canada, why are we still talking about this?

Usually the team that wins the game doesn't complain about the officiating.
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777longhaul
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

The Stig

Yes forced retirement at 60 is gone, at AC, for pilots.

There are 200 pilots, who were forced retired, strictly due to their age, (60) who are still in court, over this issue. (Prior the the Federal Rule Change.) The rule was changed, as it was determined to be discriminatory, by the Federal Government.

You must not be at AC, as you would know about this issue?

This issue, is driven by acpa, refusing to file a grievance, for each pilot who was force retired. AC has backed them (acpa) .....so far.

acpa, is the only union at AC that has refused to file grievances for the pilots, the sole reason is, they want the get rid of the 200 pilots from the seniority list. The other unions, IAM, CUPE, CAW, etc. have filed grievances on behalf of their members, both active, (not yet retired) and in-active, (force retired.) The Federal Arbitrators, have reinstated all those wishing to continue working, regardless of age.

That is why there is still band width on this discriminatory court case.

The Federal Government rule change affected over 800,000 employees in Canada. AC was a drop in the bucket.
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by MackTheKnife »

TheStig wrote:Once again, mandatory retirement no longer exists at Air Canada, why are we still taking about this?

Usually the team that wins the game doesn't complain about the officiating.

First of all, use of the word "team" when referring to ACPA is laughable at best. We are still talking about this because the real " TEAM" " that won the game for the rest of you to benefit from is still out in the cold getting the finger from ACPA at every turn.

As 777 says, ACPA is the only union in the company that deserted their members when all they asked for was their legal right for representation. Instead they chose to represent a chosen few with the most to gain.


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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by snag »

Image
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by TheStig »

My thoughts exactly snag.
777longhaul wrote:The Stig

Yes forced retirement at 60 is gone, at AC, for pilots.

There are 200 pilots, who were forced retired, strictly due to their age, (60) who are still in court, over this issue. (Prior the the Federal Rule Change.) The rule was changed, as it was determined to be discriminatory, by the Federal Government.
Actually there have been thousands of pilots who were forced to retire at 60, some others at 55, and some at 65. They retired and permitted you to advance your career. This is the way it worked, the law changed now it isn't.
777longhaul wrote:You must not be at AC, as you would know about this issue?
I'm acutely aware of this issue, because it will have a huge effect on my career. The beauty of the seniority system at AC is the longer you spend in it, the more centric and isolated your view point becomes. The concerns of anyone junior to you become completely irrelevant. Every narrow body could be parked overnight and the top 1000 pilots wouldn't even notice.

Do you have any idea what changes were made to the pension and rules for retirement for Air Canada's pilots? This was not a win for the vast majority of the membership, but you probably don't have any clue why. The FP60 group won, pilots are allowed to continue flying at AC after their 60th birthday! Yay, right?...Nope, this is all sour grapes to you guys because the changes were made after you turned 60, what about the moral victory? Age discrimination is gone from Air Canada, why aren't you celebrating?
777longhaul wrote:That is why there is still band width on this discriminatory court case.
So long as you keep paying the lawyers, they'll keep appealing, but Air Canada never broke the law, the law changed and so did the contract.
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

The Stig

AC and acpa did break the law, and have been for a very long time.

For age discrimination to work, (to be allowed) by Federal Law, (prior to the law being changed by the Federal Government, NOT the FP60 group) a Company, in this case AC, (and acpa to a lesser extent) had to FULLY qualify for a couple of issues.

Remeber, the law was finally changed by the Federal Government, after years and years of court battles. The only reason it was changed, was it was a prven beyond a shawdow of doubt, to be a totally, discriminatory law, and it covered the Federal Corporations, of which, AC happens to be part of. If....the law was not discriminatory, then it would NOT have been changed by the Fed, but it was, therefore, AC and acpa have to qualify for being able to force retire the pilots, and other employee's at AC. They have to qualify on two fronts.

The Federal Law, changed for,over 800 thousand employee's in Canada. You and those still employeed, are covered under that law.

# 1 Issue BFOR

BFOR, is one of two definitions, that would allow, AC and acpa, to discriminate against the pilots, and others employed at AC, but....they did not qualify. They (AC and acpa) failed the Meiorin Test (it is on the FP60 website, this is the link http://www.flypast60.com/Documents/Flowchart.pdf you can see the actual test that is used to determine if, a company, or union, can legally discriminate against ALL employees, (not just pilots) due to age, and all other forms of discrimination. This test is from the Supreme Court of Canada.

A company, and a union, (it is debatable that a union even qualifies for BFOR, as they are NOT an employer) must qualify for all 3 tests, any loss, on any of the 3 test, stops the ablility for legal age discrimination, or any other type of legal discrimination. Dead stop on that one.

# 2 Issue Normal Age of Retirement

This has been a back and forth issue. AC and acpa have won, and lost, (so did FP60) on this issue.

AC is the only airline in Canada that forced their pilots to retire at age 60. No other airline forces their pilots out at age 60, does that seem "normal" that AC is not breaking the law?

The Federal Department, that issues your licence, (pilot and medical) and everyother pilots licences in Canada, has NO age restriction period on a pilots licence.

It is so ridiculous, that Jazz, which is part of AC, has no age 60 rule, yet...AC says they are not breaking the law, and they are not discriminating against its employees, including the AC pilots.

AC was able to convince the CHRT in 2011, that West Jet, Air Transat, and others, (the top 5 major competitors) to AC were NOT comparable companines to AC, and Air Tindie, Air Labrator, etc. (if you even know who they are) (no disrespect to them) were legal, realistic comparators to AC.

It was a total back room deal, that AC was able to pull off, and it delayed this issue yet again. Dont forget, that it was contract time at acpa, in your career at AC, don't ever forget that issue. If....you are at AC, I strongly suggest you get involved with acpa, otherwise, you will get what ever acpa wants, at that time, and at that day, that best suits them. Get in there, and do something about it.

The last JR, (May 2013) at the Federal Court level, will decide if that CHRT ruling,was a legal, reasonable, and pratical definition, and ruling, on "The Normal Age of Retirement." Let's look at that again, AC with 3000 plus pilots, is a legal comparator to Air Tindie with 75 pilots, and West Jet, and Air Transat are not.

The issue of "Normal Age of Retirement" definition, is the hinge point in AC and acpa being able to discriminate against the pilots who wanted to stay past 60. acpa refused to file grievances for its active (paying monthly union dues) and in-active pilots, because they both know, (AC and acpa, especially acpa) that they would lose the grievances to the FP60 group. (The FP60 group is made up of ACTIVE and IN-ACTIVE pilots.) This is the sole reason we are still in court, spending your union dues, for the active pilots, and the pension money of the force retired pilots.

ALL other unions at AC have filed grievances for their members, and all that wanted to stay, and or come back have been granted that result via the Arbitrators. The only exception, acpa.

The money wasted by AC and acpa, could have been spent, on helping out the junior's and the others at AC that have been screwed over by many contract agreements over the years. acpa, has choosen, over many years of MEC changes, to ignore you, and all the others. acpa, lost out on the pension gains by the rule change, to the tune of over 300 million dollars. That is just one example, of many.

Most of the FP60 group, of 200 are now past 65, so don't worry, your movement up the ladder, will not be affected if at all. Depends on how the courts issue their decisions. NO one knows how it is going to go.

I see on AC aeronet, that there are still retirements going, and it would be a good idea if you looked at it to see how many are retireing each month since Dec 2012. That should ease, your personal concerns about your own personal advancement.
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Last edited by 777longhaul on Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
777longhaul
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

chg
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by Ah_yeah »

777longhaul wrote:The Stig

acpa, is the only union at AC that has refused to file grievances for the pilots
That should tell you something right there but clearly you guys don't get it.
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43S/172E
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 43S/172E »

Snag I love your humour well done!!

To MTK and 777 Long haul I did ask a much esteemed senior member of the CALPA who negotiated in several contracts in the 70's and 80's.

I will not engage in revisionist history but here are his recollections and I quote:

Don't know the exact date but can confirm that it was certainly
contractual. In fact CALPA's official policy read something like this:
The Association does not recognize a compulsory retirement age for
pilots unless it has been negotiated and ratified as part of the pilot's
collective agreement. My best guess would be that it came about in the
late 50's. ALPA in the U S had lobbied the FAA to regulate an official
retirement age of 60 and were successful about that time. U S efforts
through ALPA had this adopted as ICAO policy about the same time.
While I was involved at IFALPA we maintained our CALPA position re
compulsory retirement age and were able to align IFALPA policy to use
the same wording as CALPA had long maintained.

Sorry I don't have the exact wording but am working from memory.
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777longhaul
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Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Post by 777longhaul »

Age 60, When and how it came to be:

Please look at my posts on the previous page, dated June 13 and June 20th.

The USA and Canada had different creation dates, but it was the same bs game, as to why it was done, and how it was done.
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