CYXL Runway Excursion 2013-06-20

[lownslow]

I'm playing the waiting game in Sioux Lookout and just noticed there's a blue and white King Air that looks to have over run runway 34. I think it's a 100 but I'm not well versed on the differences and couldn't get close enough to be 100% sure. The plane is still standing on its landing gear and has a couple vehicles around it with nobody in much of a hurry so I assume everyone is okay.

Anyone know what happened?

LnS.

[pelmet]

The privately-registered Beech C90 aircraft (N904DJ) was en route from Kenora, ON to Sioux Lookout, ON. While landing on runway 34, the aircraft touched down approximately half-way down the runway at higher than reference speed. After touching down, the pilot selected propeller reverse detent but the propellers would not go into reverse. The pilot used full brake action and the aircraft came to a stop approximately 300 feet past the end of the runway. There were no injuries but the aircraft brakes were overheated. The aircraft is undergoing inspection of the propeller reverse system and replacement of the brakes. Runway condition at the time was bare and dry with a 4 knot crosswind.

[cdnpilot77]

Prop levers not pushed up?

[Doc]

Saw the "family" boarding the 90 today to head to Fargo. Typical case of a guy who has a bigger wallet than a log book. Some dual might be in order.

[pelmet]

Prop levers not pushed up?

I thought that unlike the Twin Otter, you can get reverse in the King Air even if the props are not pushed forward.

[jschnurr]

From "The King Air Book" by Tom Clements:

Let me close with a reminder that perhaps brings us back full circle to the item I covered initially in this discussion….the importance of being at the correct speed as the flare begins. More than one King Air has overshot a landing runway and gone off into the dirt beyond. Often, the pilot admits to excess speed during the approach: A few extra knots for the gusts, a few extra because full flaps weren’t selected, a few extra for the spouse and kids, a few extra because ATC requested keeping the speed up. “But, heck, I knew I could get it stopped. I’ve got those big reversing props to use! I don’t know what happened but it seemed like I had no reverse!” With too much speed, you won’t have Reverse.

Take a close look back at my definition of Beta and Reverse: “Beta” is the region of the Power Lever aft of Idle and before Reverse in which the propeller blades’ low pitch stop is being flattened while there is no change in idle Ng speed. “Reverse” is the region behind Beta in which the blades’ low pitch stop continues decreasing – now going negative – while at the same time Ng is increasing.
Please notice that my definition doesn’t say that the propeller’s blade angle is being flattened. The power lever controls the Low Pitch Stop. Only if we have a low enough power as well as a low enough airspeed will the propeller speed drop below the governor’s setting into an underspeed condition, causing the blade angle to be on the low pitch stop.

We know that power will be low in the flare so long as we get the power levers to Idle. But airspeed? That’s a variable that, if too high, will nullify any attempt to enter Reverse. In a nutshell, that’s the whole reason why we push the propeller levers forward before lifting the power levers: We are setting the governing speed as high as possible, making it more likely that the props will be underspeeding and thus will follow the moving low pitch stop back into Beta and Reverse. Even with maximum governing speed selected, however, excessive speed can windmill the propellers so strongly that they won’t ever reach an underspeed condition.

In the F90 POH, among others, there is a statement stating that “Propellers will not Reverse at airspeeds in excess of 95 knots.” The F90 may be the worst offender here, since it has relatively high published Approach speeds and yet a maximum governing RPM of only 1,900, but if we increased the number from 95 knots up to perhaps 120 knots, this statement would be universally applicable to every King Air. The bottom line here is that Reverse cannot always salvage a totally messed up, too fast, approach and touchdown. Rest assured, however, that there is a very, very, easy way to handle this poorly flown approach. “Uh, tower, King Air 90S is going around. We got a little behind it there.”
See how easy that was?

[pelmet]

From "The King Air Book" by Tom Clements:

Take a close look back at my definition of Beta and Reverse: “Beta” is the region of the Power Lever aft of Idle and before Reverse in which the propeller blades’ low pitch stop is being flattened while there is no change in idle Ng speed. “Reverse” is the region behind Beta in which the blades’ low pitch stop continues decreasing – now going negative – while at the same time Ng is increasing.
Please notice that my definition doesn’t say that the propeller’s blade angle is being flattened. The power lever controls the Low Pitch Stop. Only if we have a low enough power as well as a low enough airspeed will the propeller speed drop below the governor’s setting into an underspeed condition, causing the blade angle to be on the low pitch stop.

We know that power will be low in the flare so long as we get the power levers to Idle. But airspeed? That’s a variable that, if too high, will nullify any attempt to enter Reverse. In a nutshell, that’s the whole reason why we push the propeller levers forward before lifting the power levers: We are setting the governing speed as high as possible, making it more likely that the props will be underspeeding and thus will follow the moving low pitch stop back into Beta and Reverse. Even with maximum governing speed selected, however, excessive speed can windmill the propellers so strongly that they won’t ever reach an underspeed condition.

In the F90 POH, among others, there is a statement stating that “Propellers will not Reverse at airspeeds in excess of 95 knots.” The F90 may be the worst offender here, since it has relatively high published Approach speeds and yet a maximum governing RPM of only 1,900, but if we increased the number from 95 knots up to perhaps 120 knots, this statement would be universally applicable to every King Air. The bottom line here is that Reverse cannot always salvage a totally messed up, too fast, approach and touchdown. Rest assured, however, that there is a very, very, easy way to handle this poorly flown approach. “Uh, tower, King Air 90S is going around. We got a little behind it there.”
See how easy that was?

O.K......so there is no mechanical block out, just aerodynamic force preventing reverse if you land too fast. Seem to remember that 95 was about the normal approach speed, I suppose after a normal flare, you will be maybe 85 or so on touchdown, so no problem. Never saw a fast landing.

[cdnpilot77]

There is also a nice little orange Master Caution light that lights up and says "RVS not Avail" or some variation of that. If you are doing a proper pre-landing scan/check, that is not easily missed.

[Doc]

Bottom line here is simple. No damage. No injuries. He flew out with his family the next day with a valuable lesson learned. I can think of "professional" pilots, working for "Name Brand" companies right here in Canada who have totally "pooched" landings! Sometimes even TEN THOUSAND FEET isn't enough! It happens. At least the gear was down. I've "gone around" more than once because I didn't have "the ball".....

[pelmet]

So then I guess we can apply the "Good Job" moniker because there by chance happens to be no dropoff on that particular runway.

At minimum, it would an automatic demotion where I work.

[Liquid Charlie]

more than once because I didn't have "the ball".....

-- and what ball might that be ---

[Doc]

more than once because I didn't have "the ball".....

-- and what ball might that be ---

Well, like you know, "the" ball. You've flown with me....you know it can be less than pretty!

[Doc]

So then I guess we can apply the "Good Job" moniker because there by chance happens to be no dropoff on that particular runway.

At minimum, it would an automatic demotion where I work.

Would it now? So, nobody where you work can make a mistake? Mistakes are not tolerated? Shit just doesn't happen where you work? I'd bear in mind, nobody knows the reason for the overrun. He could well have slightly pooched the landing (you've never pooched a landing? You're better than me) and had a brake failure at the same time? When you're successful enough in life to be able to afford your own Beech 90, get back to me. Don't think anybody is "applying the Good Job" moniker. He's very lucky there is nothing to hit off the end of that particular runway. But, the fact remains, there isn't. Maybe he'll write an article in FLYING magazine....."I learned about flying from that..... Maybe not. Time will tell. It always does.

[trey kule]

So then I guess we can apply the "Good Job" moniker because there by chance happens to be no dropoff on that particular runway.

At minimum, it would an automatic demotion where I work.

Macdonalds would demote you for that?



Who knows if it was a good job or not with the information provided. The real problem was the guy probably did not have any taildragger time

[pelmet]

So then I guess we can apply the "Good Job" moniker because there by chance happens to be no dropoff on that particular runway.

At minimum, it would an automatic demotion where I work.

Would it now? So, nobody where you work can make a mistake? Mistakes are not tolerated? Shit just doesn't happen where you work? I'd bear in mind, nobody knows the reason for the overrun. He could well have slightly pooched the landing (you've never pooched a landing? You're better than me) and had a brake failure at the same time? When you're successful enough in life to be able to afford your own Beech 90, get back to me. Don't think anybody is "applying the Good Job" moniker. He's very lucky there is nothing to hit off the end of that particular runway. But, the fact remains, there isn't. Maybe he'll write an article in FLYING magazine....."I learned about flying from that..... Maybe not. Time will tell. It always does.

Actually, quite a few mistakes made where I work. But, I work in a part of the world where if you are unstable, you go around with no questions asked. Land, and you will face the consequences. And they have made it cut and dry now.

So...in my training, I got destabilized due to errors and we went around. No questions were asked. More than one crew continued since then and they were demoted.

Perhaps no one knows the reason for the overrun but it was not an error to land a King Air halfway down that short runway. It was poor judgement to continue after the error was made in getting into a position where they would touchdown far down a short runway. We seem to have figured out on this thread that while there was no mention in the official release of information of anything to do with brake failure, the pilots discovered they had no reverse and that was likely due to being faster than normal.

So you see.....there were at least two events likely in this case. The mistake of getting either high or fast while on final and then the poor judgement to continue. Most airlines want you to have the good judgement to not continue. Its quite easy actually.

Somehow, I suspect the all the Middle East carriers are the same, even if a few of their pilots can't figure out that landing halfway down a short runway is not enough information given to figure out the cause of an overrun.

[Doc]

Never heard YXL referred to as a "short" runway before. Where DO you fly? On the other hand, Jazz found YYB to be "short"....?

[pelmet]

Never heard YXL referred to as a "short" runway before.

Interesting.... The first link shows YXL as 4400' length runway.
http://www.world-airport-codes.com/cana ... -6935.html

The second link is probably more accurate at 5300'.

Either way, Not the kind of place to be landing at high speed halfway down the runway in a King Air. A runway is short or long depending on what you are flying into it of course.

Odd how when someone makes a mistake and lands gear up(which is an honest mistake), they get the wrath of Doc but if someone continues with a fast, high approach(which is usually pretty obvious from the cockpit) and run off the end of a runway and it is a let. Which pilot shows the poorer judgement?

Brake failure as alluded to earlier...not likely.

Would it now? So, nobody where you work can make a mistake? Mistakes are not tolerated? Shit just doesn't happen where you work? I'd bear in mind, nobody knows the reason for the overrun. He could well have slightly pooched the landing (you've never pooched a landing? You're better than me)

Not sure of the reason for this silly response. I don't make the rules where I work. The guy I did my initial training with was fired a few months back along with his captain for a late flap selection instead of going around. Extreme, yes, but that is the way it is. About a month later, the chief pilot on type asked me if I thought there would still be unstable approaches after this incident. I said yes. Turns out there have been too such as changing from one landing flap setting to a greater one for traffic separation and a high sink rate on tight published visual approach, although I think they ended up as just verbal reprimands. That's just the way it is. Overrun a runway after landing halfway down it....guaranteed you'll be gone. That one I can understand.

[Doc]

Pelmet, did you actually call leaving the gear up "an honest mistake"? Seriously? On what planet?

[pelmet]

Pelmet, did you actually call leaving the gear up "an honest mistake"? Seriously? On what planet?

Oh...OK, lets enter the mind of Doc's world. All those gear up landings we heard about over the years...they were not mistakes, they were intentional.

Anyways...land gear up...the wrath of Doc(perhaps reasonably so). Continue a high fast approach and overrun a runway or be a friend who runs runs out of gas....different story.

[Doc]

Pelmet, did you actually call leaving the gear up "an honest mistake"? Seriously? On what planet?

Oh...OK, lets enter the mind of Doc's world. All those gear up landings we heard about over the years...they were not mistakes, they were intentional.

Anyways...land gear up...the wrath of Doc(perhaps reasonably so). Continue a high fast approach and overrun a runway or be a friend who runs runs out of gas....different story.

By all means, let's make it personal. Continuing a hot high approach is not too bright, but most of us (all but pelmet, at least) have done a couple and got away with it. Most of us (with licences higher than a student permit) have had one float a little too long, or been a few knots over Vref, on occasion, and got away with it. It's a "judgement" call. If it's a obvious "pooch" job, an overshoot is in order, but most can be recovered with brakes, reverse or dumb ass luck. I've done it. Love to hear form pilots who haven't?? Other than you pelmet, who so obviously is "right on" with every approach!

Running out of gas. Yup. Kind of dumb. BUT Circumstances can, and do on occasion gang up on a pilot. Be it weather, mechanical problems etc., and this can happen. I've been VERY low on fuel. Several of us have. Who hasn't chewed into their reserve? Except pelmet, who ALWAYS lands with enough fuel to make to Maui!

Gear up landings. Unless you actually CAN'T get the gear down, and it's up simply because YOU forgot to put it down, you are an IDIOT. You will incur "the wrath of DOC", because you deserve it! However, feel comfort in the fact that pelmet, will give you a big hug because you made an "honest" mistake.

BTW, I seem to remember unleashing the "wrath of DOC" a few years back on a certain overrun, flown by a certain airline crew.....
and...more than a few CFIT accidents.....and several other TOTALLY AVOIDABLE accident scenarios......

I believe more wrath is needed in this industry, rather than warm fuzzy, politically correct reactions to stupidity.

Does that about sum it up for you, pelmet?

[pelmet]

I believe more wrath is needed in this industry, rather than warm fuzzy, politically correct reactions to stupidity.

Does that about sum it up for you, pelmet?

Pretty much.

It all started withwhat I would call your politically correct reaction to stupidity in YXL actually after I made a factual statement that my company would demote someone who did this. That is just the way it is. The wrath of my employer I suppose. For some reason you gave your childish response of "so nobody where you work can make a mistake? Mistakes are not tolerated? You've never pooched a landing? You're better than me? When you are successful enough in life to be able to afford a Beech 90, get back to me." after I made a factual statement about my employers policy.

Sorry Doc...thats kindergarten stuff.

And I did have Maui fuel when I went to Honolulu.

[Doc]

I believe more wrath is needed in this industry, rather than warm fuzzy, politically correct reactions to stupidity.

Does that about sum it up for you, pelmet?

Pretty much.

It all started withwhat I would call your politically correct reaction to stupidity in YXL actually after I made a factual statement that my company would demote someone who did this. That is just the way it is. The wrath of my employer I suppose. For some reason you gave your childish response of "so nobody where you work can make a mistake? Mistakes are not tolerated? You've never pooched a landing? You're better than me? When you are successful enough in life to be able to afford a Beech 90, get back to me." after I made a factual statement about my employers policy.

Sorry Doc...thats kindergarten stuff.

And I did have Maui fuel when I went to Honolulu.

I've left the building on the subject.

[trey kule]

Ah, Doc, I think that many here can see the wisdom of your words .
I did a bit of research, and I can see where some of the confusion lies. Maybe I can clarify....

" I work for an airline". ...does not mean I work for them as a pilot..ramp rats work for airlines as well.
" I fly privately and commercially" again does not mean a person does both as a pilot. It means I have aPPL and sit in the back when I fly commercially.

The problem is any anybody can pick up a manual , read up on a type, check themselves out on sim flight, and come on here and pontificate as if they actually know something. It really is, for the most part, not that difficult to discern who is book or internet read , and who actually has experience and knowledge .FAA studies noted that those who have one accident, typically ( if they survive the first), go on to have more. It is about attitude, and part of a good attitude is not tolerating mistakes in yourself

I feel for those that really want to learn from accidents, when they read that simply forgetting to lower the gear before landing is just an oopsie, and we either have or will do the same. The beauty of that logic being as long as we are flying, it is indisputable. So here it is kids. Lots, and I mean lots of pilots have retired with log books full of time, and never landed gear up in a serviceable plane. The logic, or really excuse, does not hold water.

On the other hand, getting a bit off profile occasionally does happen to pretty much every pilot, and those that are salvaged simply are forgotten. This is not to argue against going around.

Some accidents are true accidents. Some are caused by poor decision making that happens once.
But many more seem to happen to those pilots that every one knew were an accident waiting to happen,,,,,and that type will learn nothing from others.

So dont quit Doc. We need the balance between the true experienced ones and the googlers.

[Liquid Charlie]

Some are caused by poor decision making that happens once.

To boil it down to the simplest level -- all screw ups are mistakes and the above is certainly part of the whole and the other is ignorance which with experience should improve -- we learn from our mistakes but the other -- poor decision making -- is the the "elephant in the room" and there is a minority group that never get it and can be tracked by the bent metal they leave behind -- most are minor and stupid like taxiing over a 45 gal barrel or clipping a wingtip on a hanger or pole -- unfortunately some end up killing themselves as well as others -- at the end of the day it's sad to see guys out there that obviously don't learn from their mistakes and usually try an excuse or blame someone or something else -- it's never their fault --

We all make mistakes -- the trick is learning from them --

[lownslow]

This thread has brought up a couple points that are far more interesting than I had expected.

1. Reverse isn't available on a King Air in some situations. Hadn't thought that a dual reverse failure could occur as a result of airspeed. Certainly one to file away should I ever find myself behind the wheel of a PT-6 powered machine.

2. Not knowing your aircraft's performance is an excusable thing. Or is it that not knowing you're too hot and high excuses you from not knowing you won't get stopped in whatever length is left? Might need some clarification here, again to file away for whenever I may need it.

LnS.