Union at West Jet

[My_own_priorities]

Peace to you all in your employee/employer relationship.
***************************************************************
ADDENDUM: Red1 said this above:

What we have now isn't perfect, and definitely could be better, but in the end it ultimately works. The fact that you simply can't draw a line in the sand, means at the end of the day everybody needs to find a solution that is best for both parties. What makes us different is the fact that most pilots want the company to do well, because long term stability trumps almost everything else. This doesn't mean you won't have disagreements, or simply roll over on a issue. However, we always seem to find an equitable solution, and I don't think a union would make that any better.


So elegantly said. So very, very elegant. And it would fit on a 737-sized bumper sticker too.

[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

Just so this comment by Red1 doesn't get missed:

What we have now isn't perfect, and definitely could be better, but in the end it ultimately works. The fact that you simply can't draw a line in the sand, means at the end of the day everybody needs to find a solution that is best for both parties. What makes us different is the fact that most pilots want the company to do well, because long term stability trumps almost everything else. This doesn't mean you won't have disagreements, or simply roll over on a issue. However, we always seem to find an equitable solution, and I don't think a union would make that any better.

[7thirtyseven]

Well said My_own. Your comment was both sincere and realistic.

The silent majority is awakening, and finally opposing the extremely vocal 20+ whiners that inundate the WJPA forum. 7thirtyseven, you do not represent the views of the 1100 pilots that still hold the WJ culture close to their heart. Your name calling tactics are but a sign of how the vocal few try to silence the majority. It's pathetic really.

What is pathetic is that you havent understood one thing that I said... I called Mr my own priorities a bit of a tool, when he called himself an ahole I find it increadibly telling that you hold him up as a beacon of WestJet culture when, by his own admission his behaviour was way of base, and by his own admission logged on to a website he said he wouldnt and yet you have issues with me questioning if he is trustworthy???

If you care to take the time to actually comprehend my arguements through this thread you will find that that I believe it is time to get serious about our relationship with management, does this mean a union? No. Does this mean actually trying to make it work, drawing some accountability into the shifting sands for both parties, having at least an idea of what the roles are etc etc???? Yes!!%%

Stories and past goodwill are no longer enough, lovey dovey catchphrases only get you so far in any relationship, time to put a grownup face on it all....

Curiously enough, I recently had a conversation on this very topic with one of your wjpa execs, and guess what??? Its on the agenda immediately post MOA, Contract.... So I guess Im not that far off line.
One of the neat things about WJA is something called "engagement", one of the sad things about engagement is that those who are truly engaged, who truly care, who truly want to work for a better future are labeled as whinners by those to whom any question or disagreement is a threat.

I know this post is kind of like throwing a silk purse to a sow, but I urge you to think about what you define the culture as, what you see as your roles and responsibilities are in this culture and relationship, because the WJPA will need all of our expertise soon enough and throwing out implications that any one who doesnt think like you doesnt "hold the culture close to heart" only works in totalitarian regimes and cults. We need to get serious about it and find a way to collectively have our culture and traditions grow up, with out resorting to the cliche of unionization. Put yer thinkin' cap on.

[7thirtyseven]

Truenorth. If a person sees a future threat to his livelyhood and attempts to at least understand it and perhaps then do something about it while the majority of his/her coworkers would prefer their heads stuck firmly in the sand and the sidelines are chirping spoiled brat.... GOOD FOR HIM.
Heres a quick lesson. The behaviours of corperations are very predictable. Sometimes this behaviour can be masked (usually with money etc etc. But eventually as the lesser mgmnt types buzz towards successs like tge unthinking moths they are the longtime employees become liabilities rather than the "assets" they were previously. This is predictable, it is also predictable that the long time employees because they have both a self interest and a longterm interest in the corp will start to fight back. In WestJets case it will get very heated if only because there are so many employees with such a rosey "picture of potential" in their minds that the backlash against the moths will get harsh.

More drivel.

If there is truly a "future threat" let's hear what it is.

I asked some pretty simple questions that continue to go unanswered, but we know why that is don't we. The answers to those questions do not support the position of the union agitators. They spread rumour and innuendo and outright lies and when they are called on it they disappear or resort to personal attacks (see CAL). It's the same old same old, I've seen it over and over. The unionists are still stuck in the 1930s when lies and intimidation were very effective tools, not so much anymore. The modern workforce is better educated and has access to far more resources.

So 7thirtyseven, until you or someone else steps up and states some real concerns supported by fact, not just rhetoric, you're just whining with an agenda.

Edited to add: thanks for the leson but I spent 35 years in the industry. There is very little you can teach me about airline labour relations.

Ill be blunt with you, like thestig, and perhaps you, I dont think a union is the answer, I do think that discussion of what unions can or cant do is extremely valuable, as well as an honest discussion of how our current system is running, its shortfalls and strengths. You shallowly place my comments as "unionist drivel" and have failed to recognize that my agenda is far deeper than that.
We have the good fortune of working for a great company, we have a ton of potential, we have an engaged pilot group, some of whom have concerns about maximizing their futures, good on 'em. That is an exercise of the very engagement that WestJet is so proud of.
So to answer your q. I personally dont see any immediate "threats" that will cause collapse, but many of us see patterns emerging that are only following stereo typical airline "models" that will one day become threats. If an "engaged" WestJet pilots concerns are immediatly thrown in the pool of "unionist drivel" the reflection is not poor of the "engaged" pilot but of the closeminded thrower.

[7thirtyseven]

The above just so you realize my view is very close to red1.
My own priorities... Pm sent.

[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

Arctic84,

See what we're dealing with here folks?

Paranoia?

[7thirtyseven]

Thx My own priorities, for all, I regret some of my statements that were neither constructive or appropriate. Sorry to My own...

[My_own_priorities]

Hello all;

Lets keep things clean and real. I think we should talk about a Union. Lets have an adult discussion. Personally, I would like to find out more. A friend of mine at Sunwing just got their first contract, and it is really good. I don't think that there is anything wrong with getting information. Let's not use names etc... Lets just talk and see where it goes! I have to say though that I think it is wrong for people to be scared about wanting a union. People should not be scared... Either way, I think it is our right to decide. No one else. Does that make me militant???

This is the poster who started the thread. *** This is his/her one and one only post here on AvCanada. *** I think instead of 'we', he/she meant 'you' "should talk about a Union".

Where'd ya go wjfly? (Speaking of 3-4 login ID's, Arctic84,...this user might be doing the same thing you accuse wjhr of...)

[wjhr]

All I did was search 7thirtyseven and it brings up YouTube videos. No fishing videos.

[Rotten Apple #1]

I'll be honest, I didn't see that coming.

[My_own_priorities]

No one would be that stupid.

Would they?

[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your story, and I am greatful for it, but singular stories cannot address a general angst. I know you are at a disadvantage because I know who you are, and you can only take wild guesses at who I may be, but be assured I also believe I am very fortunate to have this job, I want to keep it great for a long time, and I think its time to get serious, move to a relationship that doesn't survive or fall on stories alone. We have a great tradition started, lets formalize it abit so that it is relevant to both sides moving into the future.

PS, you got my drift on untrustworthy, right?

First of all, my wild guesses have narrowed a bit.

Secondly, FORMALIZE OUR TRADITION/RELATIONSHIP!!??!!

How about employee/employer? Is that formal enough?

[My_own_priorities]

I'd love to keep lurking but times are changing -

Current issues:

WJPA - group of pilots who are trained by the human resources department of our airline. This is where a lot of nice people go to learn some very twisted perceptions on what representation is.

PACT - the overall group that manages WJPA. This group managed by a flight attendant. It consists of the call centre, airports, ect. Do you really think anything can happen when interests are not aligned?

Fair Treatment policy. Welcome to the Banana Republic. This is meant to replace the normal grievance process but simply leads up one side of management and down the other. There is no fair way to win, at anything, unless management wants to give you a win, to then win perception.

Passive agressive intimidation is allowed to go on for a first officers upgrade, messages will be delivered via drones that work for the greater good. This silences FO's, hampers safety and deteriorates morale.

This could go on for a long time but in the end, there is a reason that 99% of professional pilots around the world certify. The WJPA can't, because it doesn't exist. None of the current practices of PACT would be accepted by Canadian Industrial Laws. This system of a yellow company union would be illegal in most civilized parts of the world and it just turns in to a bigger square peg over a smaller and smaller round hole.

JJJ- change might be good for everyone. We can do it well -or we can do it poorly. Why ruin what we have made by trying to hold back a damn that is close to breaking? People want to talk, and feel safe when they do. The internal forum doesn't do that because it is very well know that it is viewed by managers. Pilots and Leadership need to get on the same page again. It isn't going to happen with PACT and the WJPA system.

WJ should have listened to the survey last year instead of spinning and manipulating the results - for twisted perception.

Okay Okay Okay Okay... I'll let it go..I think.

But I just had to point out this post by another "1 Poster" who has cleverly thrown us off the trail by listing his location as YWG. Very clever.

And yet, still, the post has such a familiar ring to it. Something, I, can't, quite, put, my, finger, on, it.
Very, very, very, familiar.

[My_own_priorities]

And I am not saying that wjfly = wjparesignation. Equating them because they each only posted one and one only post on the same date means nothing, devoid of context. It is unprovable.

I would say that hurtin' albertan is probably not an Albertan, but may have been the head of an association, or at least that's the feel I get, and the fact that hurtin' albertan and wjparesignation and wjfly all joined Avcanada on the same date means nothing as well. It's all coincidental.

I wrote a long reply, and it timed out, so I lost my work. That's frustrating. Anyway, the gist of what I was saying was this:

Just because an employee group certifies, does not mean that it automatically has to be an US vs. THEM relationship between the employees and management.

This is the number one reason and rationale people use to say, "I don't want a union here", because they are afraid that some big bad ALPA guy is going to come in and start running the show. This is not the case. Whether you certify with association (i.e. ALPA) or without (i.e. ACPA, SWAPA) the MEC or union execs are 100% from your own pilot group. In fact, I'd be willing to put serious money on the table that were the WJ pilots to certify, we would have many, MANY more people (and some very smart people) running for positions on the executive than we currently have running for the WJPA (how many acclimations have we had?). The way the system currently is, most guys wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

The WJPA system is broken. It may have worked back when we had 300 pilots, or 500 pilots, but with 1200, it doesn't. Nothing against the guys in there, but in reality, their hands are tied. They have no training, they have no job protection. They are beholden to PACT, which is the umbrella group under which all employee representation falls. We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago).

In my entire time here at WJ, I have never seen such low front-line morale (pilots, fas csas) during such good times (record loads, profits, stock price). I attribute this DIRECTLY to the management style of the day, and the distinct lack of communication. As an example, it took our EVP Flt Ops TWO WEEKS to put out a mostly fluffy feel-good memo regarding the bases (after the news was dropped on us just before Easter weekend, with no details, just a "we're opening bases and closing ports, uh, Happy Easter! Work hard, it's gonna be busy!". Meanwhile, in that two week period he put out two of his "weekly updates" discussing slip and fall injuries with nary a mention of the base thing! WTF?!

Things need to change, or WJ will become "just another airline".

We pilots can continue thinking thing are rosy, and we are being represented well, and then wake up one morning realizing we've been bent over, or we can organize ourselves, get some proper representational structure going with some real resources behind us, and march up to the 6th floor and say: "Hey guys, here's what we can do TOGETHER, to get this thing back on the rails…"

IMO

Now if that ain't a fancy way of trotting out that age old saying "If you don't like it, leave" then I don't know what is…

Has it occurred to you that perhaps it IS taking "personal responsibility for your unhappiness about said conditions" that is causing people to wonder about changing or evolving the WJPA to get with the times? Why must the default position be: "this is how it is, management is right, if you don't like it leave or shut up and be quiet". How is that NOT having integrity? Standing up for one's beliefs to me, IS integrity.

Your logic is so completely flawed on so many levels that I can't even fathom why I am wasting energy replying to your lame question. But here it goes anyway:

First of all, unless you were hired in the past two weeks, there has been a TIDAL change for most WJ pilots since they interviewed and/or were hired. Most of the changes have been very positive for the pilot group. In my time here we have gotten a new aircraft type(s), negotiated an industry leading contract (sorry, "agreement"), started ports to save money while helping our peers who commute, started a regional… the list goes on and on and on, too many positive changes to list. However, the current atmosphere is severely lacking what WJ was founded on: Employee Engagement, and mutual respect between management and the pilot group.

WJ is a very different beast today than it was even a year ago. What I, and many others are advocating is that we get our ducks in a row (certified or not, and truth be told, I'd rather keep everything in-house) and re-organize how we deal with management. So we all know where we stand. The current representational structure is not good enough to meet the challenges of the day. As hard as the boys in the WJPA work, they don't have the tools to represent us adequately. Nothing against them, it's the structure.

The number one gripe I keep hearing is the lack of communication from either our reps and/or our management. "Back in the day", Clive or even Durf would at least send out some sort of email after a major announcement. Today, it's all hush, hush. Fine, that's cool, business and such, but let me ask you this: are you 100% happy with how everything is going down? If so, good for you, but you best not complain if/when something comes to bite us in the a$$ 'cause we were all "happy go lucky" and "management never screwed us before, so why would they now?" Our current management team knows what they are doing, building the company up smart and lean and mean. Unfortunately it appears that it's for the benefit of the investors and shareholders (and execs) only. We used to include employees in that list… We need a stronger voice, and I fear that with the barrage of changes, our voice, as the group with the longest-term interest in the success of the company, isn't being heard, or if it is, it's not being considered.

You ever heard the phrase: "Trust, but verify" or "past history is not indicative of future performance"? All I am saying is that we protect ourselves. Does that make me or anyone else non-WestJetty (whatever that is anymore?)

I'm not saying go upstairs and start pounding on the CEO's desk, which is what some of you think anyone advocating for change wants to do. I'm saying, make some positive changes to our representational structure so that we can go upstairs and say, "Hey. Let's figure this out together", and have some tools in the box, and expertise and support behind us.

I'd pay more than $2.50 a cheque for that.

I've read/heard the POV before. I thought it was wrong then, and I think it's wrong now.

[JSYK]

And I am not saying that wjfly = wjparesignation. Equating them because they each only posted one and one only post on the same date means nothing, devoid of context. It is unprovable.

I would say that hurtin' albertan is probably not an Albertan, but may have been the head of an association, or at least that's the feel I get, and the fact that hurtin' albertan and wjparesignation and wjfly all joined Avcanada on the same date means nothing as well. It's all coincidental.

And, as usual, you'd be 100% wrong.
Careful, Corporate Security and a couple individuals (with several handles) from 2nd floor watch here. You might wanna brush up on the concept of defamation before imply you know who posted what. Wouldn't want you thought of as an apple that went bad.

[7thirtyseven]

JSYK, you destryed a good oldfashioned kitchentable argument!!! We dont have enough of those!

[JSYK]

Ooops! That wasn't my intent. I appreciate the tough discussions as much as you do 7thirty.

Perhaps it's become quiet on this thread because the 10 day self life of a certain poster is up? (doubt it now that i have said this though. Standby for incoming...)

Much of this discussion has moved to the new forum. Probably a good thing to make it less "public". No one appreciates their dirty laundry being aired, especially in the true north. Contrary to the opinion of some, it is open to all non-management pilots at WestJet and you are joining a conversation, not joining a union! by signing up.

Come on over!

[invertedattitude]

Hopefully WestJet pilots do form a union.

I'm so tired of seeing friends, and more importantly family be bullied and treated poorly to benefit some managers liking. PACT is nothing more than a shell organization which does nothing for its employees unless it happens to suit the tastes of the PACT rep themselves.

I'm speaking from over a decade of being around WestJet as well.

Im a union worker I admit, so obviously I'm biased. Do we get along with our company all the time? No, but it's definately not ACPA/AC kind of relationship, most unions these days are not.

We butt heads when it's time to protect people, do we always win? No, but we sure as hell are not treated like "out of favour" employees at a non-union workplace.

Best of luck to you all, and if anyone needs any contacts to help get you started I'd be happy to help.

My_Own_Priorities... you blame some people in this forum not being who they say, you're so obviously WestJet management you may as well wave a flag.

[My_own_priorities]

Nope. Try again.

I'm curious why you think that as a federal civil servant, that any of your perspective would have relevance to WJ and it's employees.

Do tell.

[CanadaEH]

Inverted - the same inverted whose girlfriend at the time (WestJet CSA) had her hours reduced when Westjet cut its daily flights down to once per day? That's always irked you. Must've been PACTs fault....

[invertedattitude]

Nope. Try again.

I'm curious why you think that as a federal civil servant, that any of your perspective would have relevance to WJ and it's employees.

Do tell.

Federal civil servant?

I work for a company. Not the government

[invertedattitude]

Inverted - the same inverted whose girlfriend at the time (WestJet CSA) had her hours reduced when Westjet cut its daily flights down to once per day? That's always irked you. Must've been PACTs fault....

No, it's a business decision.

How the people are handled during and since is what irks me. Used to be Westjet cared about its people as well as its bottom line, now it's just the bottom line.

Which is fine, just drop the facade about "caring" that's all, and don't be surprised if while continuing down that path, that the talk of unions is going to come up.