YTZ Pilots Association goes after Toronto Port Authority

[2R]

Toronto is big enough, to make it economical to burn garbage for power.Like London does in the Trax furnace.Using the ash to make drywall for the domestic buildings and export market.
Any residual ash could be used for road fill or extending the island runways.
This would drastically cut the long term costs of doing business in the city.It would bring the city into global transportation infrasture projects of the mid eighties kicking and screaming.
But those guys who are making a huge living out of trucking the garbage to the USA might be better employed extending the runways on the island.By trucking the ash to where it could be used to extend the waterfront.
Many large cities are built on the middens and garbage from previous city dwellers.The garbage of Toronto is a valuable resource that is being shipped out of country.It could be used to build a new waterfront that could be shaped like the islands of Dubai.
There is enough garbage in the GTA to extend the runways and build a fantastic General Aviation section.While making money from the production of power from the garbage.
If the management accountants applied the cost savings of not trucking the garbage half way across North America.If they applied those cost savings with the Land value of extending the islands they would be shocked at how much money they are wasting by not expoiting the value in the garbage that the GTA makes.
If they get the Infrastructure right they could be net importers of garbage to make power to sell.And all the valuable by products of such a venture.
Toronto has some limited experience in getting value from garbage like the construction of the Ski-hills in Centenial park in Etobicoke.If the can build a big ski hill in such a short time they could extend a runway with the garbage.Adding value to the city like the garbage of New York added value to Manhatten.

[dashx]

Interesting.

Porter owns the hangars but as far as I know they lease the land (as does everyone else).

Skyregional (I was told) cannot land at the island (last flight) as late as Porter (10 pm versus 11 pm).

Is this correct?

While it is true Porter has spent millions at the island they certainly didn't do it alone and they didn't do it with their (Deluce's) money.

Is that correct?

The move to "kick out" the GA from the island (again I was told) started a long time ago and was instigated by the Port Authority.

Is that correct?

It's unfortunate when someone (who I will assume meant to do it in good faith) does it without the blessings of the proper authorities.

Whether or not 25K (or more) is spent the outcome (as I said before) does not look promising for GA at YTZ.

There are pictures of the airport from the 70's 80's 90's and the present. Count the GA planes parked there and you will see a decline.

At least that's what I see.

Now where is the good dentist and his gyrocopter??????

[skymarc]

Its easy to say we want to keep GA at CYTZ, but I dont see it.

- double or triple the hangar rental and tiedown fees.
- high ramp fees and overnight parking at Porter with no discount if you take fuel.
- very high fuel prices
- limited ramp space
- high landing fees.
- long waiting time for IFR clearance and takeoff .

I dont know were we will land in Toronto in the future.
CYYZ dont want us there.
CYKZ is closing.
CYTZ is pushing away GA.

[photofly]

Porter has spent millions fixing up the airport and they should expect a return.

None of the "millions" they spent fixing up the airport has benefited GA in the slightest. What exactly are we getting in return for this "return" that Porter should be entitled to expect?

[2R]

This will all change when Olivia Chow becomes Mayor

[photofly]

[365TAS]

Porter has spent millions fixing up the airport and they should expect a return.

None of the "millions" they spent fixing up the airport has benefited GA in the slightest. What exactly are we getting in return for this "return" that Porter should be entitled to expect?

Simply put...had Porter not revitalized the airport it would now be a park or condo complex. The fact that a runway exists should be enough. Add new approaches, better access, runway extensions, higher rating for the tower. Basic supply and demand. In 2006 you could do a circuit and be the only one flying. Higher demand for limited pace, prices rise. Higher value operations take over. See Toronto real estate values in last 10 years of which YTZ is quite central. Back in the 70's and 80's a C172 could go in and out of YYZ. Now try it. City grows up, so does the airport. And there is nothing stopping anyone from going over to transcapital and hangaring there...it's not a monopoly.

[photofly]

Oh, I see the march of progress. And I agree if you're an airline passenger then CYTZ is a much nicer place than it used to be. If you're an airline passenger. that is.

But none of the approaches that you vaunt are new, nor are they particularly suitable for piston singles; unless you like an IAF at 2400msl 11 miles out over a cold Lake Ontario. Which runway extensions do you have in mind, that are helpful to a C172? Why does a Class C control zone vs. a Class D make a difference, and what does reclassifying airspace cost?

This was the argument the TPA put forward for imposing a per-landing fee for based aircraft: "We're spending a lot of money on the airport, and you little guys need to pay your share." Except when pressed, nobody was able to say how any of the "lot of money" improved the service for the little guys who were helping to pay for it.

[skymarc]

Transcapital as some hangars? Have you seen the ramp? Last time I was in there I was really worried about FOD.

I would love to do the restricted approaches at CYTZ but they are Restricted.

The only upgrade I have seen over the last 5 years was new gates and terminal for Porter, nothing for GA.
Give me an RNAV LPV to 250' that anyone can use.

[365TAS]

Transcapital as some hangars? Have you seen the ramp? Last time I was in there I was really worried about FOD.

I would love to do the restricted approaches at CYTZ but they are Restricted.

The only upgrade I have seen over the last 5 years was new gates and terminal for Porter, nothing for GA.
Give me an RNAV LPV to 250' that anyone can use.

The RNAV08 LPV down to 250' should be back up and running in 3-4 months...anyone can use it. The ILS08 used to only be available if YYZ wasn't using the 5/6's..ie never when you needed it...now it's been deconflicted with YYZ arrivals. The RNAV A or C can be used by anyone anytime. As for useful IFR approaches onto 26 for a C172...sorry the lake is there...or the CN Tower...or the Hearn stack. The ILS26 is restricted because it's been aircraft type specific tested and special crew training also required. Transport's rules..not Porter's.
The TPA was a perennial money loser and the airport was on the road to closure. GA was contributing nothing to stop that, similar to YKZ. Porter came in, invested millions and the TPA invested what was required to support the expansion...some of which benefitted all, such as the new snow removal equipment, new fire trucks, paving and lighting improvements, free and improved ferry service etc. If every passenger can pay $20 to fly out (user pay) why not anyone else using the place?

[photofly]

I don't care whose fault it is that none of the approaches are suited to a C172, just don't bullshit me that I should be paying for them. Snow-clearing equipment? Just how many C172 departures were snow-delayed during the period 1980-2006 before Porter came along?

Where is this much-vaunted paving improvements? 06/24 is about as smooth as a rock quarry, and I nearly lose my undercarriage every time I taxi over one of the old tie-downs on alpha that nobody gives a shit about filling in, because they're too small to worry a Q400.

And I don't need 4 high-pressure foam-equipped fire-tenders on standby. Airlines do, but not me.

All this improvement is Porter-specific, and claiming it helps GA is pure bulllshit.

[photofly]

The RNAV08 LPV down to 250' should be back up and running in 3-4 months...anyone can use it.

It's in the RCAP, and you needs an OPS SPEC to use it.

[365TAS]

I don't care whose fault it is that none of the approaches are suited to a C172, just don't bullshit me that I should be paying for them. Snow-clearing equipment? Just how many C172 departures were snow-delayed during the period 1980-2006 before Porter came along?

Where is this much-vaunted paving improvements? 06/24 is about as smooth as a rock quarry, and I nearly lose my undercarriage every time I taxi over one of the old tie-downs on alpha that nobody gives a shit about filling in, because they're too small to worry a Q400.

And I don't need 4 high-pressure foam-equipped fire-tenders on standby. Airlines do, but not me.

All this improvement is Porter-specific, and claiming it helps GA is pure bulllshit.

Sorry..I just assumed better airfield equipment would help all users of the airport including the mighty cavok weekend warriors. Paving? Taxiway A between 15 and 08 already done. C and D too. B starts shortly. The rest is all planned. YTZ is now the 9th busiest airport in Canada and climbing...can anyone really expect rising prices and competition for space in downtown Toronto wouldn't happen with that kind of growth? Just across the water a 350sqft condo sells for $250K+, not including a parking spot or $1000+/month rent. You get what you pay for...and GA hasn't been putting much in...if you can get better value for your money elsewhere like Brampton, Burlington, Oshawa, Barrie etc...what too far? Too inconvenient? Point proven......downtown Toronto is expensive..you've got to pay if you want to play...simple supply and demand for a very limited resource.

[skymarc]

Yes and you do pay to play. $90 for ramp and overnight parking at Porter.

[photofly]

You get what you pay for...and GA hasn't been putting much in.

Rubbish. I pay the most expensive outdoor tie-down fees in the country. For probably the crappiest bit of tarmac you can imagine.

I grok the whole "Toronto is expensive" thing. Just don't insult my intelligence with the "you're paying for the improved service" crap.

[Schteevie]

This thread is full of great info - I am curious as to the source of some of the very specific claims?
I wish I had access to the facts like some of you guys seem to.

Anyway - as I mentioned earlier, I have had great experiences flying out of YTZ renting from "Island Air".
The controllers are very supportive and easily fit me in (flying VFR) with the Dash-8s; I rarely have to wait longer than it takes for my run-up to get clearance for departure, and upon returning, they'll always safely fit me in with little or no delay - and if I want to do touch and goes for an hour it is generally not a problem, although sometimes we have to do a full stop and taxi back due to a Dash-8 having just departed.

I recently did a flight where I made a minor error and didn't fly a steep enough approach when landing ~90 seconds behind landing Dash-8, and I did fly into a wake (or prop blast from one that departed just before I landed) - I'll let you guys decide, and I am curious to get your feedback on this.

Bottom line, the tower always gives adequate wake warnings, but in this case I should have simply flown a steeper approach to be sure to avoid it.
In this case I was taking a friend who was afraid of flying, so it was not a great time to make that mistake
I had chosen a SUPER calm night to take her, so it compounded the affect of the sudden wing drop after having had such a smooth ride.
I was somewhat distracted as I was concerned about how she was doing as she remained clearly anxious for the whole flight despite how crazy calm the air was.
(She later told me the calm air and my smooth flying was part of the problem as she didn't feel anything was supporting the plane and thought we'd fall out of the sky at any minute

On any other day where there was some degree of turbulence or even slightly gusty wind it wouldn't have been very noticeable, but after this flight on such a calm night, it was shockingly obviously wrong - it even took me by surprise honestly.
Anyway, if interested, here's the link:

http://youtu.be/sjifp5oi6dE