ACPA rejects 777/787!!!

Froggy · Post by **Froggy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:13 pm

I just heard that the ACPA has just rejected the 777 / 787 deal meaning that a/c will not be getting them!!!

Is there any truth to this rumor?

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:48 pm

I did hear the vote was to day from a friend that works there.

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:31 pm

What does the Pilot's Assocication have against the Boeing airplanes?

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:33 pm

you actually have to fly a boeing

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:44 pm

They didn't reject the flippin' airplanes, they rejected a contract deal that they considered concessionary... (after two previous rounds of heavy concessions). It was Milton who said they'd have to accept the deal in order to get the airplanes... Now we'll see if he meant it.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:43 pm

The pilots at Air Canada have said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

This is also a type of "non confidence" vote in ACPA. This is probably the first time the pilots voted down an agreement that was recommended by the Master Executive Council (ACPA).

ACPA was out of it's mind to even agree to DISCUSS further concessions when all that was necessary was to set the pay schedule for a new aircraft type.

The pilots are SO tired of "Giving it up" every time the company wants something. This time further concessions were totally unrealistic. (The company got a fantastic deal from Boeing and these aircraft are way more fuel efficient)

I predict Air Canada will still get the Boeing order.... AND only the pay rates will have to be arbitrated.

MWadham · Post by **MWadham** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:09 pm

Its true Air Canada has cancelled the order

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rk ... -0&Start=0

Froggy · Post by **Froggy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:53 pm

Holly S**T Balls!

I guess it was true!

Order cancelled!

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:16 pm

I call BS on Milton and company. You're telling me an order for a/c worth hundreds of millions was contingent on securing concessions worth what, tens of millions? If that? Not saying it wasn't insignificant, but I have to think the outlay they were preparing for was an order of magnitude greater than the concessions they were trying to pry out of ACPA.

I think not. Good for ACPA. Now comes the predictable whining about how the greedy AC pilots have wrecked everything, the sky is falling, etc...*yawn*...and then magically, they're able to procure older, less fuel efficient a/c...whoa...either the business is there boys, or it isn't...AC should quit playing games and attempt to run a business.

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:32 pm

There are some good pilots at AC with their heads screwed on straight. I'm sure they're doing the right thing, and they're making the company a better place to work for the future generation of AC pilots. Let's trust their decision in doing what they did. They're certainly going to take lots of heat from it from within the company. Best of luck to them. Let's hope Milton figures it all out to continue growing the company. It sounds like that's what their plan is.

Shankdown

Vmo · Post by **Vmo** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:05 pm

Good job ACPA. Concessions after concessions... A line had to be drawn and ACPA guys had the balls to do it. For those who inevitably will make negative comments on ACPA memebers' decision, listen, you have a choice: do not be a member of ACPA and do not work for AC. Simple, really, isn't it!!?!!

b767jetmec · Post by **b767jetmec** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:14 pm

I`m almost willing to bet that Milton will leave ACE. The growth strategy was contingient on procuring these aircraft. So now what? And let me be up front here, I in no way, am pointing fingers. If ACPA felt it wasn`t a good deal great, reject the offer. Nuff said. But honestly, I now think AC has taken 2 steps backwards. Looks like status quo! Air Canada had a contract until 2009 with it`s union groups, why now ask for more concessions? As unhappy as I am to see the order fall through, and not just for aquiring new aircraft, but for future growth, I have to say, Milton, Brewer, enough is enough. How much money you got in the bank? What , some $2 billion, shares are soring. Back to the drawing board!

joe to go · Post by **joe to go** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:38 pm

I too agree. Enough is enough in Canada with the shitty pay. Finally a group of pilots willing to stand up for what they believe in. Kudos to you. To bad others in the industry don't follow suit, and try to make the canadian aviation industry a good place to work again. And to this day, i don't believe that it is the pilots saleries that make a difference whether or not an airline makes it or not. my 2 cents

Traveler · Post by **Traveler** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:22 am

enough is enough, see ya in Dubia

Traveler · Post by **Traveler** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:27 am

And to this day, i don't believe that it is the pilots saleries that make a difference whether or not an airline makes it or not. my 2 cents[/quote]

at 30% of expenses, dont make a difference

Wait till the company is making $ till you ask for your share:shock: see ya in Dubai

gonnabeapilot · Post by **gonnabeapilot** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:15 am

Well definately interesting news. Does anyone actually know what the whole concern was? I have heard that the pilots were offered 767 wages to fly the 777, that the company was willing to concede the wages but change the crew rest facilities onboard, that the pilots wanted to send the company a message by having a large no vote but didn't want to actually reject the offer and finally that the whole thing really wasn't about the 777 but focused on old frustrations concerning the seniority awards. I was definately looking forward to seeing 777/787s in AC colours however if the issue was pay, good for the pilots for making a stand. If it was something else, such as this issue being used to bring attention to the seniority awards from the merger, then shame on the pilots for screwing the company as a whole. Either way, if anybody actually knows what went on, I'd definately love to hear it. As an aside, for all you conspiracy nuts out there consider this from the Boeing press release:

"We share Air Canada 's disappointment at today's developments because we are looking forward to being a part of Air Canada 's vision for leadership." and this from the Air Canada press release:

"The critical component of the Boeing order were the 787 aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2010 and beyond to replace our Boeing 767 fleet. In time we will re-address this requirement."

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:15 am

Well this is depressing news and I've pretty much had it with this country... but I must say that I am encouraged by all the support for the ACPA boys (and gals) that I'm hearing on here. I expected to see a lot of whining and uninformed slams... but instead it seems that we're all ready for the industry to turn around and for the leaders in aviation to quit taking advantage of us and start realizing that even though we love what we do, it's still a career and we all--well, most of us--want to be remunerated realistically, and not with token peanuts.

Good on ya, AC lads.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:23 am

Hmm IMHO the pilot group cut off their arm to spite themselves..There is little point in winning the battle but losing the war.

29chev · Post by **29chev** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:41 am

Rebel
Who said the war is over? It never ends there is never peace in buisness...just battle after battle....the big companys never rest in their attemts to get consessions from the workers...but ever once in a while the workers say NO! ENOUGH! right now this will hurt Mr. Milton more than the rest of us as probably his stock options will lose some of there $40,000,000 dollar value on Monday and just maybe if he and his group hurt enough they will think before they test us again......but make no mistake they will be back with a new plan and a new test for our resolve its the nature of the beast. It's never over until you retire.
29

Jet Dog · Post by **Jet Dog** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:31 am

I too was looking forward to AC colours on the 777/787 as well. Who wants to bet the next order will be an airbus order (A350 perhaps?)

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:21 am

So what now...
How will this effect the 600 rumored positions that were comming down the pipeline? Can't they just re-order the boeing's at a later date?

Cheers.

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:34 am

Like gonnabeapilot, I am also curious as to what management was asking.
Also heard from someone on the inside that the vote had a lot to do with frustrations over the seniorityawards. If not, good on the pilots for standing up for them selves.

loopy · Post by **loopy** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:37 am

I too call BS. If so much of the future plans of AC depend on these new machines, and they are that much more fuel efficient than current equipment, it seems to me that it's management who is cutting off their nose to spite their face. We don't even know what specifically the company was asking for that the pilots didn't like. We have all heard rumours that it wasn't pay, or not all pay, but working conditions. The first 787 wasn't supposed to be delivered until 2010 and the current agreement goes until 2009. It seems to me you have a little time to revisit the issue. Yes, the first 777's are coming later this year. Keep negotiating.

This is a move by Milton to try and force the pilot's to be desparate and make them look bad. From my point of view, it seems the opposite has happened. Good on ACPA

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:50 am

There goes my chances for the 777, off to Dubai then

loopy · Post by **loopy** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:50 am

Some interesting points of view on this topic on PPRUNE:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... ost1945741