Colonel Sanders wrote:It sounds like things are seriously rotten in Denmark.
COPA's press release - and the post from another director -
would appear to confirm what was initially asserted here.
As unimportant COPA members, we have the following choices:
1) ignore the stench, and keep paying dues
2) quit
3) take some action to remove the board & president
4) ?
4) Start an alternative to COPA? Probably the least realistic option.
Somewhere in this thread it says a simple majority is needed to remove persons from the board at the AGM; which is about a year from now. Plenty of time to get a voting bloc together.
As a follow up to my email below I wanted to demonstrate how unhelpful the COPA insurance program is/was. I have attached the COPA quote to demonstrate this. I also attached a quote from two other underwriters to demonstrate that both of these companies provided quotes that were less expensive that the COPA sponsored insurance company was.
First, I had to contact the COPA sponsored insurance company several times in order just to get a quote in the first place.
Second, the quote provide by the COPA sponsored insurance company was several hundred dollars more than other quotes received for the same coverage (hull value, liability, deductible).
I seriously considered rejoining COPA as a result of the potential savings through the COPA sponsored insurance company but has you can see by the attached it was not worth it at all. It also further demonstrated to me that the current COPA executive are not working in the best interest of its membership. I am not sure what the deal is between the COPA executive and the COPA sponsored insurance company but it is clearly not to the benefit of its members.
There is a time and place for dissention and disagreement. There is also a point when such dissention and disagreement within an organization is disruptive and destructive. When that point is reached, those responsible for the organization must act to protect it or stand by and take responsibility for it being weakened, undermined and perhaps, ultimately, destroyed. Your elected Board members believed that this point had been reached with Mr. Ronan, and acted. Perhaps another Board composed of other members may have acted later, or sooner or not at all. However, this Board, and not any other, was charged with the responsibility for COPA at this time and acted in what it believed was in COPA’s best interests and in accordance with its bylaws. We stand by our actions.
Regards
Paul Hayes
Chairman[/quote]
Mr Hayes, the reason the boards actions lack legitimacy is in how the board acted. Removing a dissenting, but ELECTED board member by declining to accept his membership renewal and then pointing to that as to why Mr Ronan is not eligible to continue his ELECTED position on the board smells of expediency and back room dealing.
If the COPA board had instead used the bylaws at it's disposal to remove Mr. Ronan this might be a different kettle of fish.
But you folks didn't do that. Now you have a very big, smelly, optics problem. No matter how right, no matter how justified, no matter how nesessary you thought your actions were, you have already lost.
It is no longer about the issue of Mr. Ronan. It is about preception. You and your board look to the membership like you are running a rat ship for your own ends. COPA will continue to decline until it is clear to all that it is a rump of it's former self.
I live and breath aviation. I fly all week professionally, and most weekends privately. I am but a blade amongst the grass. You won't find me on your membership rolls.
Quote:
However, this Board, and not any other, was charged with the responsibility for COPA at this time and acted in what it believed was in COPA’s best interests and in accordance with its bylaws. We stand by our actions.
End Quote.
Your actions were to decline to renew Mr. Ronans membership? That is how you act on your convictions ?
Docav8or wrote::Letter to COPA by another member copied below:
As a follow up to my email below I wanted to demonstrate how unhelpful the COPA insurance program is/was. I have attached the COPA quote to demonstrate this. I also attached a quote from two other underwriters to demonstrate that both of these companies provided quotes that were less expensive that the COPA sponsored insurance company was.
First, I had to contact the COPA sponsored insurance company several times in order just to get a quote in the first place.
Second, the quote provide by the COPA sponsored insurance company was several hundred dollars more than other quotes received for the same coverage (hull value, liability, deductible).
I seriously considered rejoining COPA as a result of the potential savings through the COPA sponsored insurance company but has you can see by the attached it was not worth it at all. It also further demonstrated to me that the current COPA executive are not working in the best interest of its membership. I am not sure what the deal is between the COPA executive and the COPA sponsored insurance company but it is clearly not to the benefit of its members.
Arnold
This has what to do with subject in question exactly? I could have sworn the subject was the board's and president's ethically questionable actions with regards to Doug Ronan. By the way, you can include me in the number of Canadian pilots who want nothing to do with an organization that would act in such a manner. I'd be interested to see how many of you still have positions within the organization following the next elections; assuming of course you aren't removed before that time.
Justjohn wrote:There is a time and place for dissention and disagreement. There is also a point when such dissention and disagreement within an organization is disruptive and destructive. When that point is reached, those responsible for the organization must act to protect it or stand by and take responsibility for it being weakened, undermined and perhaps, ultimately, destroyed. Your elected Board members believed that this point had been reached with Mr. Ronan, and acted. Perhaps another Board composed of other members may have acted later, or sooner or not at all. However, this Board, and not any other, was charged with the responsibility for COPA at this time and acted in what it believed was in COPA’s best interests and in accordance with its bylaws. We stand by our actions.
Regards
Paul Hayes
Chairman
Mr Hayes, the reason the boards actions lack legitimacy is in how the board acted. Removing a dissenting, but ELECTED board member by declining to accept his membership renewal and then pointing to that as to why Mr Ronan is not eligible to continue his ELECTED position on the board smells of expediency and back room dealing.
If the COPA board had instead used the bylaws at it's disposal to remove Mr. Ronan this might be a different kettle of fish.
But you folks didn't do that. Now you have a very big, smelly, optics problem. No matter how right, no matter how justified, no matter how nesessary you thought your actions were, you have already lost.
It is no longer about the issue of Mr. Ronan. It is about preception. You and your board look to the membership like you are running a rat ship for your own ends. COPA will continue to decline until it is clear to all that it is a rump of it's former self.
I live and breath aviation. I fly all week professionally, and most weekends privately. I am but a blade amongst the grass. You won't find me on your membership rolls.
Quote:
However, this Board, and not any other, was charged with the responsibility for COPA at this time and acted in what it believed was in COPA’s best interests and in accordance with its bylaws. We stand by our actions.
End Quote.
Your actions were to decline to renew Mr. Ronans membership? That is how you act on your convictions ?
WOW! Just read up on all this. Been a COPA member since the late 80's and this is seriously making me considering dropping out! The optics are really bad on this one. Wondering if a thousand members or so pulled their dues if it would make any change? Be a pretty strong message. The Pres's salary also blew me for a loop!!! NO WAY does this salary make any sense! If that's his salary, then what does he get for expenses? Car allowance, etc??? WTF?
My work association went through something like this a few years ago, when our Pres did a bone headed move which basically started a revolution. We wound up opening all the books and seeing things like $400.00 bottles of wine being drunk at seminars and such to impress other company association members, leasing Escalades and using them as personal vehicles, etc. Took a year but he finally got the boot but instead of going back to work, he retired! Shows how cushy that job was. Once in a while, you have to clean house.
Thankfully, since this is not related to my work, it's a simple matter of just pulling out and speaking with my wallet... they better clean this up fast!
<snip> Mr Hayes, the reason the boards actions lack legitimacy is in how the board acted. Removing a dissenting, but ELECTED board member by declining to accept his membership renewal and then pointing to that as to why Mr Ronan is not eligible to continue his ELECTED position on the board smells of expediency and back room dealing.
If the COPA board had instead used the bylaws at it's disposal to remove Mr. Ronan this might be a different kettle of fish. But you folks didn't do that. Now you have a very big, smelly, optics problem. No matter how right, no matter how justified, no matter how nesessary you thought your actions were, you have already lost. <snip>
Just John has managed to nail the jello to the wall with his brilliant summary of why Doug Ronan's beheading just doesn't pass the Kool Aid test. Thanks!
This question probably falls under the "fat chance" category but does anyone know if a request for refunds of remaining COPA membership months work?
H Christensen wrote:
Just John has managed to nail the jello to the wall with his brilliant summary of why Doug Ronan's beheading just doesn't pass the Kool Aid test. Thanks!
This question probably falls under the "fat chance" category but does anyone know if a request for refunds of remaining COPA membership months work?
I just realised that I recently renewed my membership. Perhaps I'll email COPA and tell them that I don't agree with their recent shenanigans regarding Mr Ronan, and therefore I don't support COPA's aims and they should give me a refund just like they did with him. Perhaps if enough people do this they'll get the message that they've screwed things up.
You could also go for a refund through your credit card. However having done that before for a disputed (but not fraudulent) transaction, they make you jump through a bunch of hoops and it's not really worth the hassle.
Colonel Sanders wrote:As unimportant COPA members, we have the following choices:
1) ignore the stench, and keep paying dues
2) quit
3) take some action to remove the board & president
4) ?
4) Start an alternative to COPA? Probably the least realistic option.
I wouldn't be that sure, if only because I feel that COPA has been overshadowed in a lot of its areas by other things. For instance, Avcanada itself probably does more to promote aviation activity in Canada, and certainly has overtaken COPA's previous importance in a lot of areas. For instance, COPA's newspaper is considerably less important than it was before, there are way more job ads posted here, probably as many aircraft for sale, and from what I've seen way more current and updated info is disseminated.
Other organizations also fill some of its requirements. There's a lot of people who are members of both EAA and AOPA, so there exists the possibility of raming up other already established organizations to fill the roles that COPA currently performs. Hell, the other two mentioned even can set you up with a deal on insurance if I'm right.
Starting stuff moving from somewhere else might start simply as cancelling your COPA membership and signing on to something else. I'll admit that I signed on to EAA since I thought they were doing a better job of the whole young eagles thing than the COPA for kids was doing.
I think I would be cautious about "throwing the Baby out with the bath water".
I would agree there certainly appears to be a need to do something about the Upper level of COPA.
But there are an awful lot of really good hard working chapters around the country with members that are making a real difference. Sure there are a few that are duds, but the are far more doing great work at a local level and I think that needs kept in mind going forward.
To kill the beast (so to speak) would decimate the good work being done at a local level by others.
Not suggesting the beast needs to be killed, just that people should realise that there are other options out there if you feel your local COPA chapter doesn't suit your needs or isn't beneficial to aviation. COPA needs to realise this too, that if it doesn't keep itself relevant that its not as hard as they would like to think to replace them - perhaps the source of some of the upper level problems - COPA thinks its the only game in town, and maybe it once was, but now its got some competition.
I've seen the arguement before that challenging a decision undermines it, usually used to bully people into supporting fundamentally flawed positions. Personally, I call bullsh1t if a decision cannot withstand criticism.
Cat Driver wrote: ...
Reading this is like walking past a pile of rotten fish on a hot day.
As a potential new COPA recruit, I'm having serious second thoughts about buying into such an organization. Aren't there already enough overpaid politicians?
I'd be hesitant about getting ridding of all the directors. Do you really want to get rid of Bryan Webster, for example? Perhaps the Chairman just needs replaced.
I've had a few dealings with Kevin Psutka in the past, and he has always seemed diligent and hard-working from what I can see. Perhaps the directors need to take a detailed look at executive compensation and report to members.
If you run a non-profit in the USA you have to list the compensation of all key employees on the 990 form, which is available for anyone to view.
Thank- you for your prompt reply to my letter. I am however troubled that you did not directly answer any of my questions which I do not feel have been properly addressed in your Press Release either.
I would like to point out that both the President and the Board serve at the pleasure of the membership, not the other way around. If you truly believe that you hold the moral high ground ,you should be willing to put the matter to a vote of the membership, rather than relying on dubious semi-legal gimmicks to impose your will on the membership. I do not honestly believe that removing a Diirector by the method you have chosen is, in fact, legal.
Mr. Ronan was properly elected by the membership. If you feel that he no longer has the support of the membership, perhaps you should reinstate this membership standing, and call a new election and allow him to run. Then, we will find out who holds the confidence of the members of this organization.
I am requesting that a Special Meeting of the Members be held to consider this matter .
I, respectfully posed my questions requesting clarity in a situation I admittedly do not fully understand nor have all the facts about. I was searching for facts to make decisions regarding whether or not to accept the actions of the Board as you would have us all do. Your response, or apparently lack thereof, does not actually elucidate the reasoning of the board other than to suggest that it is an extreme case of muzzling any dissenting view, as it has made the board uncomfortable.
I was requesting simple answers to simple questions and feel that as a member, I deserved a clear and most complete answer to each of my separate questions. I would expect the Board to take the high road to restore democracy , openness , honesty and ethics into the organization. There certainly appears to have been quite a bit of questionable action at the helm and now you are refusing to answer the direct questions, with direct and complete answers. We have to ask why?
You objected to me using the word "crime", yet throwing a person out of an organization, and displacing them from their rightfully elected position, I would hope, is not something you would do, without good reason, without major justification, or frivolously, so what is the true reason? I doubt disliking a person, or their opinion, or their voicing that opinion would be significant reasoning for effectual firing of them. I am sure that if firing properly was an option, it would have been done, so one is left to assume that nothing actually was done wrong by Mr. Ronan other than to annoy someone who wanted him removed as a result. Also, I understand that not all the directors agree, so there is some support on the Board for Mr. Ronan and/or his opinions. One would have to guess by the lack of response to my clear questions, that perhaps the same is happening at Board level. If that is the case, no wonder a passionate advocate for aviation and COPA in general, was causing waves. There would be an excellent case for dissentience if that happened.
You objected to me using the word "secret", though I know people who were at the conference in the Yukon, and they knew nothing of this. As a member with voting rights, I was not informed of your intention to remove my representative at COPA, also nothing was mentioned in the newsletters, so as far as I am concerned, it was a secret; so, forgive me for my wording. Where was the notice to remove Mr. Doug Ronan from this supposedly democratic organization published?
Is removing Directors a common practice in this organization? How many have been removed prior to the end of their terms in the past? How we're they removed?
I, also, respectfully resubmit my original questions:
1. What are the two issues and background that are at the center of this controversy?
2. Why was this done in a manner so as to appear that the board is trying to cover up something?
3. Is it true that Mr. Ronan renewed his COPA membership and that the President refunded it the day he refused to resign?
4. If Mr. Ronan really did something wrong why didn't the board remove him as a director as is set out in the by-laws on your website?
In section 5-G section b) "if the Director is removed from office at an Annual General Meeting of members or a Special Meeting of Members, by resolution of which notice has been given and passed by a majority of the members present at the meeting"
5. The message on the COPA website clearly states that Mr. Ronan's only crime has been to complain/criticize some board decisions - what mechanism is in place if the board makes a decision which is later found to be flawed or needs further discussion? From what you have written a board decision stands even if it found to be incorrect or new information comes about?
6. "The forgoing actions were entirely those of the elected members of the Board of Directors. Contrary to certain rumors, including allegations published by Mr. Ronan himself, these actions were not taken by COPA’s President and CEO. " The basis for Mr. Ronan's membership not being renewed (or in fact refunded) is weakly based on the following line in the By-laws that states:
"Any person who supports COPA's objectives may become a member upon acceptance of their application for membership by the President and CEO and payment of the required membership dues in accordance with section 3-C."
"3-C Application for Membership: Any eligible person may become a Regular, Family or Corporate member upon filing an application duly completed and upon payment of the membership dues."
So if the President and CEO had nothing to do with it (as you state repeatedly in your message and appear quite concerned about), how was this accomplished? So which is it?
7. It appears that the Board did not like the way Mr. Ronan presented his complaints, but how exactly were the content of these complaints/criticisms against the aims and objectives of COPA and its members?
I look forward to your considered and complete response.
Well said Docav8or...I both agree with and applaud your letter and questions you've posed to My Hayes. I too look forward to his and the board of directors answers to these simple questions. For the record, you have my total support and participation if a Special Meeting of the Members is called for.
This developing situation is a text book example of extremely poor crisis management. Hiding, obstructing, and failing to respond in a timely professional manner only makes the situation worse.
Few people have posted to the thread. But many many people have read it and are drawing their own conclusions. My wife, a former journalist with the CBC and former bureau chief on Parliament Hill for another network often said to me that when someone is not being straight and forthcoming in answering questions, other people will fill in the blanks. When that happens, all control is lost.
My assessment is that we are not far from that tipping point. Keep the pressure on. Don't let this thread sink to the bottom of the page. I am not a COPA member. I'm a holder of a Canadian private license, but I no longer live in Canada. I have no skin in this game. As an avid Avcanada poster, I am stunned by this whole event and shocked by the short sighted responses from the top people at COPA. For the simple reason for poor management of this situation, change has to happen at the top. This is amateur hour that is jeopardizing a very proud pilot membership society.
I don't know Doug Ronan. I sure love his videos and we share in his passion for aviation. For his to stand and represent his community his admirable. The treatment he has received is aimed not only at him, but at the people he represents. To not recognize that at the leadership level of COPA demonstrates incompetence.
Few people have posted to the thread. But many many people have read it and are drawing their own conclusions.
I also am no longer a member of COPA, however I am still a member of the flying community and the level of moral decay that seems to be entrenched at the top level of COPA needs to be examined by the whole of aviation world wide.
Someone should make a post in the Rumours & News forum of Pprune and share this issue with far, far more aviation enthusiasts.
Something simple like suggest the Pprune group have a look at this thread on Avcanada......that should produce a lot more hits in this thread.
And bring more pressure on the COPA management to clear this up.
I won't be renewing my membership. It was due June 30, 2013. I am sure there is still life after COPA. I have been a member for a lot of years. When the insurance with March went south, I found that the EAA plan was a much better deal. There are other organizations that promote aviation in Canada that could use my dollars.
"Sorry we do not refund memberships."
"We have noted in your membership record that you do not wish to renew when your membership is due for renewal next year."
"We will cancelled your membership as per telephone conversation this will be cancelled at the end of your expiry date March 31, 2014."
Above are quotes from the COPA membership administrator after I requested cancellation of my membership because of the SNAFU with Doug Ronan. To be clear, my message was that I wanted to CANCEL and not to simply let my membership lapse come renewal time.
I was making a statement, dammit, that COPA managed to turn into a simple administrative function.
If President Psutka could squeeze out a refund for Doug Ronan I figured I might have a shot, too (refer to the "fat chance" comment in an earlier post).
If there is anyone not familiar with the SNAFU acronym, it pretty well summarizes the COPA Board's handling of this mess: 'Situation normal, all f****d up.'
Cat Driver wrote:
I also am no longer a member of COPA, however I am still a member of the flying community and the level of moral decay that seems to be entrenched at the top level of COPA needs to be examined by the whole of aviation world wide.
Well, according to the COPA President, if you involved in GA and you are not a COPA member, you are getting "a free ride".
Phone COPA back up and tell them that you
disagree with the Board of Directors, and you
demand exactly the same treatment that they
gave Doug Ronan. Ask to speak to the President,
even if he denies any knowledge or involvement
in this issue, which is fantastically implausible
according to the COPA President, if you involved in GA and you are not a COPA member, you are getting "a free ride".
I think we have to agree with him on that, because he's the expert on that subject.
Phone COPA back up and tell them that you
disagree with the Board of Directors, and you
demand exactly the same treatment that they
gave Doug Ronan. Ask to speak to the President,
even if he denies any knowledge or involvement
in this issue, which is fantastically implausible
according to the COPA President, if you involved in GA and you are not a COPA member, you are getting "a free ride".
I think we have to agree with him on that, because he's the expert on that subject.
Phone COPA back up and tell them that you
disagree with the Board of Directors, and you
demand exactly the same treatment that they
gave Doug Ronan. Ask to speak to the President,
even if he denies any knowledge or involvement
in this issue, which is fantastically implausible
according to the COPA President, if you involved in GA and you are not a COPA member, you are getting "a free ride".
I think we have to agree with him on that, because he's the expert on that subject.
I am laughing too hard, it is hurting my recent surgical incision.
This is truly an unsettling situation. Like so many others I am seriously questioning my membership and this is unfortunate because withdrawal by me and others will hurt the local COPA flights and their efforts. They will suffer due to what appears to very poor management at the national level.
Looking at the message from the Chair on the COPA National site a couple of statements stand out
Paul Hayes wrote:Once passed by majority vote, a Director is required to accept, uphold and support the collective wisdom of the Board, whether they initially agreed or disagreed with the proposed Board action.
and
Paul Hayes wrote:Further, a requirement of ordinary membership in COPA is to support the aims of the COPA. Those aims are expressed through the resolutions of the elected members of the Board as they are passed by majority vote from time to time.
So, it appears that not only Directors, but even us regular members are expected to toe the party line. Sounds to me much more like an incredibly flawed political party with a small leadership group that wants to retain power than an association of aviation enthusiasts who want to promote aviation within Canada.
I guess one other quote also caught my attention
Paul Hayes wrote:The President properly distanced himself from this issue and is commended for so doing.
This really seems to be weaselhood at it's highest level. How can an organization claim that it's supposed leader isn't involved in such a dramatic and severe action. And do they really expect the members to buy it? Based on the initial two quotes, I guess they do expect that.
And since they believe that, and seem to expect we will all lay down without receiving a much better explanation and the opportunity to vote on the issue ourselves, the likely next resolution will be to change the name of the group to Completely Obedient Pilots Association.
