where to from here...re>doy

[oldncold]

First i would like th thank mr ryan hutchison of Wabusk Air in his support of me the pic of the
C-FDOY Incident of june 11/2013 he was correct in stating there was a simple breakdown of communications between the pf and the pnf // the long and the short of it is the following:

due to inflight enroute transponder issue atc unable to verify alt and location //resulting in more than normal communications with bearskin inbound to cyyu from cyts on trying to relay messages to us and atc///next ,

at the precise time i as pf called for gear down my intercom transmiission was blocked by pnf relaying back to bearskin the acknowledgement of our eta and will close with yxu on the ground

my pnf is a sharp situationally aware young pilot, and he completed the the final landing chks as per chk lists /company sop's

Which reinforced my acknowledgement that the gear was down .
this was further reinforced by the landing lights being in the ON position// post incident and confirmed that i had called for the gear . BOTH PNF AND PF heard no gear warning horn and were not privy to the after to the incident of the aircraft being raised on jacks to assay the situtation .

The aircraft in the incident had had 2 previous gear problems and or failures .

So where is the situation now ?> insurance company /owner, fighting over a 43 yr old aircraft. I 'VE BEEN LET GO DUE TO INCIDINET AND LACK OF AIRCRAFT TO FLY THOUGH IN past 25 days have flown close to 80 hours since said incident.

The statement of mr ryan hutchinson/c.p re both crew are employed was correct until 2100 hrs tonight .


So if you have a position for an experienced nearly12,000 capt that is honest/ accepts responsibilty for pic , and is hardworking , most likely never to repeat this incident. I would appreciate a pm reply //to those that wish to chastize ,berate etc you are only one blocked sentence away from the same. I hope to let those know that it cant happen it is possible and in by doing so demonstrate " IF YOU CANT STAND THE HEAT YOU HAVE NO BIZ IN THE LEFT SEAT", hope to benefit egards oldn cold

[pelmet]

It takes a brave person to come on here and admit what you have admitted especially after hearing all the comments over the years on this subject. Thank you for telling us the details of how this can happen.

In a recent earlier thread on this very subject I stated that when this kind of thing does unfortunately happen, and that despite the grave error that it is, it is an honest mistake. I was strongly berated for this. It appears that an honest mistake was the case here. That does not justify what happened but I think the rest of us should just sit back and think how we can avoid such a situation. The first thing we can do is realize that it can happen to any of us and therefore to be paranoid about it. I remember in retractable propeller aircraft ops to have a tendency to say on final, "Gear down-props fine" to myself while touching said controls and I sometimes found myself saying it several times. It is the only advice I can think of right now to give for single pilot ops. For two crew operations, the PNF has to actually look at the gear down indications when responding to the checklist item and it helps if the PF does as well if he can. At my company, the PF is the one that responds to this item(along with flaps and speedbrake armed).

I think my attitude is much better than the well known holier than thou posters(on of whom now has me on his Ignore List) who just repeatedly berate instead of trying to discuss some constructive prevention procedures.

Any other constructive comments on gear up landing prevention are welcome. If it can happen to a 12,000 hour guy, it can happen to me.

[Doc]

Oldncold, I can't imagine the feeling your must have experienced as the bird settled on her belly. Pretty big of you to post that. A post like yours is invaluable as a learning tool to many here. Mistakes do happen. You've demonstrated by you post here that you know that you're human. This hasn't happened to me, but in no way are any of us immune to mistakes (I've made a bucket full in over 25000 hours, I'm shocked none have bitten me in the ass) as too many believe they are. I'll touch base with you via PM. Keep your chin up, with your "up front" attitude, something will come up. Hiring you at this point wound pretty much guarantee the wheels will always come down in the future. Best of luck!

[young grasshopper]

Oldncold,

Kudos for the post. Lots to be learned for all of us- and thanks for putting it all out there for us. Something will come up for you- it's a small industry; and I'm sure your honest attitude will pay dividends in your job search. Good luck!

[AuxBatOn]

Changing tunes Doc? From not even 2 months ago, telling us how stupid you need to be to forget the gear...

I always find it scary hat on some level, some of you think this is Okay? What makes it Okay? It's an older airplane? He paid for the "job"? What exactly makes it Okay to be so bloody stupid as to forget to lower the landing gear?

Why the change of mind?

[flyinthebug]

Changing tunes Doc? From not even 2 months ago, telling us how stupid you need to be to forget the gear...

I always find it scary hat on some level, some of you think this is Okay? What makes it Okay? It's an older airplane? He paid for the "job"? What exactly makes it Okay to be so bloody stupid as to forget to lower the landing gear?

Why the change of mind?

I believe because Doc is capable of more than just one dimensional thinking. He has respect for those that take responsibility for their actions. This gentleman came on here and was honest and upfront about his incident and explained in detail why this occurred. There was a breakdown of CRM and PDM and he believed his FO had lowered the gear as per his instruction. Doc and others who sometimes jump on these type of accidents, are easily capable of saying, wow, that is one way this could happen to me or anyone.

Instead of berating Doc for being supportive, maybe you should applaud his change of heart. Many of us have tried over the years to instill in Doc and others that accidents CAN happen to ANYONE no matter how awesome your skill set is. Maybe Doc has adopted a new position on this issue? At very least he can now see that these type of mistakes can happen to anyone, under adverse or perfect conditions. To be honest, I think my crash was a wake up call for Doc. We`ve known each other a long time and when he heard I made a HUGE error that led to me crashing, maybe that's what made him have a change of heart? Who knows what it was, but embrace it, don't berate him for it.

To oldncold...
As others have said, you are a strong and brave man to come on here and tell your story. There is a King Air with your name on it somewhere my friend. If I still ran King Airs, id bring you on just due to your positive attitude, and the fact that you have accepted full responsibility for the accident. You had the 4 bars and therefore the mistake ultimately was yours.

PM me, I think I may have an avenue for you.
Fly safe all.

[pelmet]

Changing tunes Doc? From not even 2 months ago, telling us how stupid you need to be to forget the gear...

I always find it scary hat on some level, some of you think this is Okay? What makes it Okay? It's an older airplane? He paid for the "job"? What exactly makes it Okay to be so bloody stupid as to forget to lower the landing gear?

Why the change of mind?

I believe because Doc is capable of more than just one dimensional thinking. He has respect for those that take responsibility for their actions. This gentleman came on here and was honest and upfront about his incident and explained in detail why this occurred. There was a breakdown of CRM and PDM and he believed his FO had lowered the gear as per his instruction. Doc and others who sometimes jump on these type of accidents, are easily capable of saying, wow, that is one way this could happen to me or anyone.

Who says that the others who have landed gear up have not taken responsibility for their errors? Yet within the last three weeks, this quote.... "Gear up landings. Unless you actually CAN'T get the gear down, and it's up simply because YOU forgot to put it down, you are an IDIOT. You will incur "the wrath of DOC", because you deserve it! However, feel comfort in the fact that pelmet, will give you a big hug because you made an "honest" mistake. I believe more wrath is needed in this industry, rather than warm fuzzy, politically correct reactions to stupidity. Does that about sum it up for you"

Maybe Doc is going to give out "hugs" now as apparently he has had a change of heart. I am skeptical and think we know the true feelings. I think the berating of him is because we just don't believe his post. On the forums, words speak louder than actions, it seems.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ot#p827934

Reality...this guy made a big mistake. Next reality, it could happen to any of us flying such types.

[oldncold]

the only other point I can add in retrospect is > so those other may not have a incident is from a safety point:

On the king air 100 is the landing gear handle is well out of the normal scan left knee on first officer sub panel) . and can be hidden from view at certain angles ie knees s an right arm on the power quad> so when flying approaches stop and actually look over at the position and do not accept the final landing ck list items machine gun style it may save the day!! also thought over a 100 times since if it was a king air 200 would i have noticed. yes due to position of the handle and sop of the pnf reaching over to lower the gear. fly safe // as pic it is my responsibility accept it . one thing 10 days before this incident this same crew was tasked to be the initial search that dark night for the missing ornge helicopter. so one can go from hero the heartbreak in a very short time thankyou to those folks that pm'd me about our efforts on that night we were glad to assist in our little way.

[Doc]

Have to admit to being more than a little anal about gear up landings, but when somebody comes clean about it the way oldncold has done, I really respect that. Too many shrug and blame other factors. This, and the fact that I check the green lights at the gear down call, at the full flap call, at the "final checks complete, runway clear" call......and in the flare! I have not softened my point of view. Nor should the rest of you, but after his post, I'd hire him if I was looking. After all, he's not very likely to repeat now, is he?

[Cat Driver]

but after his post, I'd hire him if I was looking. After all, he's not very likely to repeat now, is he?

Same here.

[AuxBatOn]

Doc,

So, because someone doesn't come here and own up to his/her mistake in front of you means they are stupid? What about those that aren't on this site?

Accidents rarely occur because of a single factor, like it's been demonstrated here by oldncold.

[Doc]

Doc,

So, because someone doesn't come here and own up to his/her mistake in front of you means they are stupid? What about those that aren't on this site?

Accidents rarely occur because of a single factor, like it's been demonstrated here by oldncold.

So I should berate him? Would that make you happier? Doesn't seem to matter what position I take here, I just get dumped on for it. So, compassion just doesn't cut it for you? I'll take to task on "accidents rarely occur because of a single factor". Sure they do. Most often other factors are brought into the equation because its politically correct to do so. At least I'll admit this to be at least in part, true. I respect your background and experience AuxBatOn, I just respectfully beg to differ on opinions with you, from time to time.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Sometimes there can be an ocean of grey between black and white...

[esp803]

In the words of my first CP:

"I'd rather hire the guy who's done it and won't do it again, then the guy who hasn't done it and might do it"

I suspect you won't have too much trouble finding a new position!

E

[Sidebar]

In the words of my first CP: "I'd rather hire the guy who's done it and won't do it again ...

Having done it once is no guarantee against doing it again. See http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=89667.

[spaner]

Just one little piece of advice for you oldncold, don't stay off the horse very long. Not in this situation. You need to take the first RG job that you can find in the next 30days, don't let it slide longer than that. Depending, you may consider it penance for a year, or not, I know more than one CP, that would take you without too much consideration; if you could sit down one-on-one and deliver an honest recount of the incident, void of white washing, but full of ownership and responsibility.
If your previous CP is as stout as he claims to be, a reference would be in order, citing an internal conflict due to pending legal action as cause.

Doc,
Don't take the bait, I don't know what you've been into/ or out of, lately, but there is nothing wrong with turning over a new leaf. Give the guy a fair shake I say, right?
And like has been said, I too have gotten/found myself in bad situations but I've always manage to pull out... before the fat lady started singing...

[cdnpilot77]

Doc seems to be taking a beating here unnecessarily. I know Doc quite well and he helped me get my first big break in this industry, for that I am eternally grateful! I also know he has helped many others in the same pursuit. If he doesn't "like" you, it's probably for good reason. A stand up guy, respects a stand up guy, exactly the case here.

Listen, the OP had a moment of idiocy. Can that be denied? It was but a brief stupid moment in what otherwise appears to be a sound career. Unlike many in this new generation would, Mr. Old has decided to give his account, accept responsibility and move on with a commendable amount of humility and no doubt a whole new level of humbleness. It's not "turning a new leaf" or "reversing a position" to see that with your own eyes. You can either choose to accept the OP's sincerity or not, whatever. Doc and many others have chosen to give him the benefit of doubt as he has clearly demonstrated to being a standup guy. Jebus people focus on the message, not the words

[Sidebar]

Doc and many others have chosen to give him the benefit of doubt as he has clearly demonstrated to being a standup guy.

So, if someone lands gear up, but doesn't bare their soul on avCanada, it's OK for Doc and his ilk to spew venom?

[cdnpilot77]

Doc and many others have chosen to give him the benefit of doubt as he has clearly demonstrated to being a standup guy.

So, if someone lands gear up, but doesn't bare their soul on avCanada, it's OK for Doc and his ilk to spew venom?

Jebus people focus on the message, not the words

This is the mutual forum we have, accept it or not, I really don't care.

[pelmet]

Doc and many others have chosen to give him the benefit of doubt as he has clearly demonstrated to being a standup guy.

So, if someone lands gear up, but doesn't bare their soul on avCanada, it's OK for Doc and his ilk to spew venom?

I have a theory. If an accident happens to a friend or acquaintance that he likes, it makes all the difference in the world.

It is called the Old Boys Club.

Just a theory.

[spaner]

Side ways again,

And like has been said, I too have gotten/found myself in bad situations but I've always manage to pull out... before the fat lady started singing...

A FAT lady..BAD situation..."PULL OUT"...

Phuaa, why do I bother, you guys are always too busy..

[Beefitarian]

Well that story contains a pile of SUCK™!

I hope you are surprised by getting a better job oldncold.

[AuxBatOn]

So I should berate him? Would that make you happier?

Absolutely not. I think it's actually commendable. What would make me happy is you having the same reaction to other similar accidents posted here on this forum.

[xsbank]

Something that works for me: never say "gear down" but say "gear down landing check" then the PNF has to do the action but he also has to read the check and now you have the crew working together...

[spaner]

SOPs can be good, but should have a layer of questionability at some point in the sequence outside of the SOPs. Some used to say "final, with..." which drove most crazy.

Considering ergonomics and human factors, it is possible to design a completely foolproof SOP.
The crew will never forget to put the gear down, and the crew will be absolutely sure that the gear is down short final. Even if the AC is on fire, and everything is going sideways, they will never miss the action.
The SOP,
Every time the copilot selects the gear down, and the captain confirms the position.
The copilot gets to slap the captain in the face. Everytime.
The copilot will never miss this opportunity, even if it's his last action of life, you can bet that he won't forget to get the last one "in there".

Short finals,
The captain knows that his face is burning, and he can hear the copilots' giggles, all the way to touchdown.

Just a little joke of course.