Hypothetical question for Gilles

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Dh8Classic
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Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by Dh8Classic »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
ea306 wrote: Something better? Like what? A nice union busting wage diluting position such as a position at Rouge ......or Sky Regional where a captain makes less than an excavator operator makes moving dirt or killing trees? Whatever. Go ahead and wish us out of work. Personally I am very happy here. I will not apologize for the best paying year round job many of us have had and that we are enjoying here at Sunwing. I appreciate my job very much thank you...and sorry TG.... There is not going to be a better job waiting for anyone if Sunwing was to close its doors.
Is the B737 operation at Air Transat going to be a step forward if I resign and join them or if my job is lost at Sunwing? Here is another question, if I was to become unemployed at Sunwing, does this give me a god given right to be hired at Air Transat or anywhere else for that matter simply because I am Canadian and hold a Canadian ATPL with a B737NG and 9 other type ratings? Uh... I don't think I suffer such delusions of grandure and self entitlement that I should simply be hired on that basis alone. Maybe Rouge or Sky Regional or Air Transat or Encore would not see me in the same light and would not wish to offer me a position.
EA306, you just invoked an intersting hypothetical situation.
If you lost your job, and a few weeks later Air Transat imported B737 qualified foreign pilots after telling HRSDC that they needed such pilots because there were no qualified 737 pilots in Canada, you would scream bloody murder, and you would be entirely justified in doing so.
Yet this is exactly what Sunwing did in the fall of 2012. You remember I collected Resumes of qualified applicants? Five or six of the resumes that I collected were of B-737NG qualified pilots, one of which was no longer current, the others were. I also had another with a 737-200 rating. I sent these Resumes along with 70 others, most of which had jet time, to the ALPA Canada board where they were printed and delivered in person to HRSDC.
That did not prevent HRSDC from issuing 119 LMOs for type rated foreign pilots. The six Canadian 737NG rated guys were not hired at the time. On what excuse ? The same bogus excuse AT can invent to avoid hiring you: attitude problems, don't fit AT profile, questionable references.....whatever.
If such a hypothetical situation were to happen, I would be by your side screaming bloody murder also. For it would be wrong to leave a pilot like yourself on the pavement while AT hired foreigners

Seeing as he is on the subject of hypothetical questions...

Imagine that the economy is somewhat stagnant to poor, and overall the airline industry is not doing well, except perhaps that new charter company out west that has been expanding quite quickly. It is owned by some guy from the Far East who is a bit of a character. and flies regular flights to the Far East and India. Somehow he has played his cards well with alliances and good service and being in the right place at the right time to get good aircraft at a great price.

Anyways, competition is tough and most other carriers are losing money and finally after years of hanging on, Air Transat shuts down and all those pilots are out on the street. Poor Gilles has no job but a family to feed. Well I better apply to those guys out west he says. Besides, they will be coming east very soon with big plans backed by good money and what appears to be a good business model.

But unfortunately there is no reply for an interview, despite repeated attempts to get one. In fact, while a few in a similar situation have been hired, it is very few. "Why is that?" he asks one of the very few that he knows that have been lucky enough to get hired.

Well, it turns out that this Chinese businessman and his Indian wife are doing their best to hire pilots who at least speak Chinese or Indian as a second language. They are more comfortable with that and of course all the F/A's are from a similar background. With Canada's immigration policies over the last 30 years, there are quite a few pilots who are second generation from these lands and speak the language, mind you many those new F\O's are King Air drivers or similar. But while the owner insists that there must be decent experience in the cockpit and therefore some highly experienced pilots are hired, it is only the minimum necessary. Otherwise, speaking Chinese or Indian for an F/O with 1800 hours and some turbine is more important than some ex-Transat A-330 driver. It is a heck of an opportunity for those guys. In fact, most of the interviews are in Hindi, Mandarin or Cantonese.

Gilles is angry and bitter at not even being considered despite his extensive experience due to some artificial language requirement and he slams his fist on the table when he finds out about this. He complains about it on a forum but is labelled as intolerant by a pilot at this new company with such fantastic opportunities for a restricted population. But....at least Gilles now finally knows how 60% of Canadian pilots looking for a commercial airline job feel about Air Transat.
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: .....your message of intolerance.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 75#p823658
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by newcomer »

1) as far as I know Québec is part of Canada,and all of Transat's pilots are Canadians. A Canadian airline hiring canadian pilots. What's illegal about it?

2) there are pilots at Air Transat who only speak English

3) how many pilots from Quebec fly for Westjet, once again?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Newcomer there may be at least one because I dead-headed on his flight between YUL and YYC yesterday. His name was André.
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by newcomer »

I know Gilles (I heard there were 2 or 3 at least). My #3 point was about the ratio of French pilots at Westjet,compared to the ratio of English pilots at Transat.
I'm sure Transat wins hands down.
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by Dh8Classic »

newcomer wrote:I know Gilles (I heard there were 2 or 3 at least). My #3 point was about the ratio of French pilots at Westjet,compared to the ratio of English pilots at Transat.
I'm sure Transat wins hands down.
The ratio of pilots at either is a meaningless arguement.

What matters is the ratio of qualified pilots given a fair chance at either airline. I am unfamiliar with the number of qualified francophone pilots that have applied to WJ over the years. I think that it is safe to assume that it was fairly low in the early days when it was an airline on the other side of the country and even to this day has only a Calgary base.

I would also think that it is safe to assume that there are no artificial language barriers meant to exclude fully qualified pilots from WJ and that language is not an issue except that I believe WestJet prefers bilingual pilots as they are trying to get more pax out of Quebec and like bilingual PA's at least in that area. I suspect that one who is reasonably qualified has just as much chance of success at getting hired at WJ as AC. Well maybe not quite, AC does give a couple brownie points for being bilingual in both official languages which I do not have a problem with.

But if you have any evidence to the contrary of the hiring policies at WJ in an effort to block francophones, please let us know. I would support that going to the human rights tribunal as a disgusting example of discrimination.
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by newcomer »

The ratio of pilots at either is a meaningless arguement
.

So,you start a thread complaining that not enough English pilots were/are considered for work at Transat,but when I tell you it's even worse at Westjet,suddenly it's not THE problem?
What matters is the ratio of qualified pilots given a fair chance at either airline
Precisely!
I am unfamiliar with the number of qualified francophone pilots that have applied to WJ over the years. I think that it is safe to assume that it was fairly low in the early days when it was an airline on the other side of the country and even to this day has only a Calgary base.
Really? I can tell you quite a few pilots would either move to yyc (not so many I agree) or somewhere else where they could use the port system (yyz for instance) if it meant getting a job at Westjet.
Want a scoop? All of the Transat new hires have to spend years and years being based in yyz before getting a chance to move to yul (if ever,now). So don't try to pretend that French pilots don't apply at Westjet because they don't want to leave Québec. It's just not true. They move if it means having a good career with a great airline.

I know some guys that were fully qualified (6000h+ tt, 1500h+ pic on 705) who applied,none of them ever got an invitation for an interview (funny story,they ended up at Transat).
Regarding the 2 or 3 Westjet French pilots that I heard of,they did their whole career out West.

I do believe that a French pilot that has been flying in Québec his whole career,who is fully qualified and bilingual but has no reference at Westjet,doesn't stand much of a chance to be invited for an interview.
Likewise,I'm sure that it is a lot more difficult for an English pilot flying in Alberta with no reference at Transat to get an interview as compared to a French pilot with references.
That being said,regarding the total number of pilots at Transat vs Westjet and the impact the latter has on the industry,guess who feels more discriminated against?
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by Dh8Classic »

newcomer wrote:
All of the Transat new hires have to spend years and years being based in yyz before getting a chance to move to yul (if ever,now). So don't try to pretend that French pilots don't apply at Westjet because they don't want to leave Québec. It's just not true. They move if it means having a good career with a great airline.
Where someone was based after being hired is irrelevant to my argument(although I think you intentionally do this to distract from the argument). I have been clear that I am complaining about hiring policies.
newcomer wrote:
I do believe that a French pilot that has been flying in Québec his whole career,who is fully qualified and bilingual but has no reference at Westjet ,doesn't stand much of a chance to be invited for an interview.
newcomer wrote:
.......I tell you it's even worse at Westjet....
Well, you have made a serious accusation. One of the WJ hiring guys is actually(or was) on the WJ forum. Perhaps you should make your serious accusations to him(I know you will come up with an excuse not to). But please show us the evidence of ratio of qualified resumes to actual hires first or a written policy such as an artificial language requirement that will block out said applicants. Keep in mind that apparently, anyone without a reference at WJ doesn't stand much of a chance of an interview regardless of their background.

But you seem to be knowledgeable about WJ hiring and say that things are worse there. If your accusation of disgusting discrimination is true, please let all know with proof. It might be justified to go to a human rights commission if your accusations are true.

Anyways, guaranteed, at pretty much every other airline in this great county including WJ...no artificial language barriers. That includes Sunwing, soon to be Canada's largest charter company(unless Rouge is one).
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by newcomer »

if Transat has the choice between 2 pilots,one English speaker only and the second one bilingual,guess who's gonna get hired? It's pretty obvious to me.

Sorry,but I have a life,I'm not gonna waste my time and go to court or whatever commission,or on this forum talking to you for that matter.

But every time you talk about Transat,I'll be there to remind you about Westjet.

Oh,and one last thing: everybody can learn a new language,especially when your country has 2 official languages,it's a shame not to know both,or at least get by. You'll see,it will open up your mind!
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Re: Hypothetical question for Gilles

Post by Dh8Classic »

newcomer wrote:if Transat has the choice between 2 pilots,one English speaker only and the second one bilingual,guess who's gonna get hired? It's pretty obvious to me.
Equally qualified....seems reasonable. The problem is...low time bilingual given preference over experienced. Sort of like my original example.

Anyways....Sunwing is the future. And it is open to all of us(like almost all other carriers). You may just find yourself there. Congratulations if you do.

As you can see in previous posts on subject, I have encouraged people to learn both official languages. So the typical response of "open your mind" and "intolerance" that come from you and Gilles really is ironic as the beneficiaries or supporters of discrimination. Kind of like the racism industry that supports hiring quotas based strictly on race but labels those who complain about it as racists.

Thanks for posting no evidence whatsoever on your accusation of discrimination by one of our national carriers in their hiring policy. I expected no more and no less.
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