Future AME Discouraged

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Stumper
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#226 Post by Stumper » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:57 pm

A very raw and real post bhmve. Having little money and a wife and kids to provide for makes the glory fade pretty fast for all but a few. Especially when you're required to work shifts and places that make you routinely miss the people and moments that really matter. My dad once told me as he was battling cancer that his whole life boiled down to just a handful of important memories. I don't like to think about how many of those I have missed through the years
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#227 Post by azimuthaviation » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:36 pm

iflyforpie wrote:Yep.... sorry but buying a type endorsement--whether you are an AME or a pilot--is just setting yourself up for more abuse. Type specific training should be paid for by the company--companies who should factor this cost in as part of doing business. The only time it might make sense to buy an endorsement is if you are running a very good contracting company and you can justify the investment based on a guaranteed rate of return. Guys who are successful contractors.. both AMEs and pilots... got their type ratings paid for by previous companies and then jumped ship when the time was right.

If you are going to throw ten grand away, at least blow it on something interesting like a week in Vegas or high risk stocks. Your rate of return will be much higher if you are successful and if not... what have you lost in comparison buying a type rating that will take you years to pay off--that is if it even gets you a job?

And yeah... $3/hr for a whole pile more headaches, BS, and responsibility...? No thanks. I get a kick out of those who want endorsements and ACAs so badly. :D
Yes and No. Im avionics so its a little different, but to me it seems when someone gets a type rating through a company they pay for it in years of service before and after the course. When a company sends you on course they can hold you at a lower wage for longer because as soon as you leave you get a bill for the training. Meanwhile you might be missing out on a better opportunity (there are always better opportunities).

And yes, companies should pay for type training, since according to the regs they have to provide it.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#228 Post by seamus » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:28 am

bhmve wrote:I gradded in 2011 and I went straight into helicopters. I wanted to work on helicopters so that was my choice. I got a job as an apprentice making 13 bux an hour. No benefits, no holidays, no OT... crappy work environment. I told myself it was part of the process in order to get my AME license. After a year my wage went to 15 and change an hour and I was maxed out as an apprentice. I didnt quit because I had the opportunity to get a 212 endorsement out of them. Im getting my license now in a month and I have a really bad taste in my mouth. If i could go back in time I would not have taken Aircraft Maintenance. This was a terrible career choice so far. I still dont have a type course (they want to get an in house training program set up) I make no money and have gone so far into debt its ridiculous. I got in thinking there was a "shortage" of AME's? BS! there are TONS of old guys still working who have no intention of quitting any time soon because they cant afford it.
If youre ok with making not enough money and being treated like shit all the time then go for it. Get that AME license. As for me, if I could go back in time knowing what I know now, no way!
Also, if you plan on getting married and having kids... whoa! Just ask any AME what thats like.

Now I may sound bitter and I have only worked at one place. But the reason I am so frustrated is because I am married with two kids. Im just saying that if youre tied down this job is not for you. You need to keep your options open in this industry. If you are willing to walk out that door you are far better off. I am stuck making no money, no type course, huge debt because I am not willing to get a divorce. how fucked up is that?

You invest 5 years of your life and a shit load of money to get your license for what?? 60k a year? thats not enough money. I was told you can make 100k a year, which is true but you have to be able to go where ever whenever. just keep that in mind before you decide if this is for you.

This rant is all over the place but pretty much I just hate where I work and my personal experience has been horrible so far. Even if it gets better at a different company, the 5 year investment and debt and eating Kraft dinner and spam every night or starving while living in a shoebox is not fucking worth it!
Bmhve - I don't mean to be a prick here but you sound awfully jaded for a guy that's not even licenced yet. One thing's for sure - it will be damn hard to make 100k in your first year as a licenced engineer, down the road 5-10 years later it's not a problem, especially in the helicopter world but certainly not right at the beginning (though it does happen from time to time)

Second thing, nobody ever said there's a shortage of AMEs, that's a rather common misconception but... to quote a famous saying in this industry: " there is a big shortage of highly-skilled and CHEAP AMEs " :lol:

If one is setting out to work in the helicopter industry and hopes to break the six-figure income level IFR, offshore work is what one should really focus on. Try getting on with someone that operates AW139s or S92s, stick with that for 4-5 years and Bob's you uncle. You may not like the things I say here but these are the facts of life. How you get from where you are today onto some of that new technology is up to you but from where I'm sitting the off-shore helicopter job market seems virtually endless right now. And yes, many old engineers that have made handsome living for many years are now leaving this industry creating even more job vacancies.

Cheers
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#229 Post by bhmve » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:16 pm

Hey seamus good reply. I totally understand what you're saying. I was more talking about how I am treated and what I have had to go through in order to get my license. As for money, I know there is potential but in the end there are lots of other jobs out there that pay well with a lot less BS. I just wished I had the ability to move on and get a job with a decent company. Im just speaking from my own personal experience.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#230 Post by dstechnical » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:31 pm

as a contract AME for many years i have paid for a few endorsements. some worked out other did not. I dont like to feel obligated to a company. you can demand top; dollar and leave when you want. Want to make 6 figures be prepared to leave home, and also remember there is hardly no benefits in this industry so you need a good income to support your retirement. where i live a heavy duty mechanic demands $50/hr plus benefits. My 23 yr old son makes 350- 700/day drilling in the mines. try to get him to apprentice as an AME for $12-15/hr i love aviation but i also like to eat have a house, feed my kids, put them thru school etc,When I see jobs asking for 10 year plus AMes and paying $23-25/hr, you got to ask yourself how much of a discount you want to take for the luv of the job. the shop reate to get your ATV fixed is now $100/hr, try to find an FBO that can get that kind of money out of the average airplane owner!. the ATV mechanic makes $30/hr plus benefits. Aviation has always had an aura about and companies have always taken advantage of it. When tell someone what I do they always think it is the best job and I must be paid like I am a doctor. When i tell them the average wage, and that the guy repairing his car is making more money, they think i am lying. Aviation is great, but it also demands many sacrifices, but the pay does not usually compensate for the sacrifices.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#231 Post by motox415 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:57 am

A big +1.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#232 Post by CentCollStud1234 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:26 pm

According this this topic "Future AME Discouraged",
How about Future A&P?
How about others aviation mechanics in other countries?
Can I assume aviation mechanic jobs have no future?
I want to change into this career and I don't want another bad career move in my early 30s.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#233 Post by GyvAir » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:41 pm

I think it's been said about a gross of times in as many different ways in these stickied maintenance forum threads:
There is a rewarding future for the aspiring AME who understands that the rewards they will reap in their career will only be proportional to what they put into it.
If you apply yourself in school, get good grades rather than scrape by, go out and get that job for the summer, work hard at it and impress the people that can get you the nod to the full time job at graduation and continue to show up to work, contribute, learn and take on new challenges... you will be as satisfied, happy and remunerated as well as in most other trades.
Coast through school hiding in the corners, only doing what you absolutely need to to get by, take that attitude to the interview (and the job, should you manage to get hired) and you will have a bitterly disappointing aviation career.

Do what you love and/or are good at; enjoyment will come naturally and the money will follow.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#234 Post by God of Store keepers » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:15 pm

GyvAir is right. Out of a class of 12, 4 will get AME jobs within 5 months of Grad. these four will how ever have excellent grades and attendance, thus approved status. be keen and foster good relationships with instructors. This is important, be a keener, ask questions. The companies always call the school and the Instructors always give out more information then is legal. those who just cruise through and don't have a instructors reference will not find a good paying job below the 49th parallel. Come out with acceptable and kiss your 8 grand away, maybe you can find something in manufacturing, Boeing is hiring like crazy, so was Bomb. and Viking.
If you want to make good money, helicopters. Start in helicopters, get endorsed on the Astar, 205, 206, 212 and Twinstar, have a real desire to work in the bush half the year and its all gravy.
Don't listen to pilots, Cargojet pays its AME's more then a pilot Captain. There are good fixed wing jobs but you must be prepared to travel.
What else, oh ya work on being a good trouble shooter, my sister can change parts. For example said company like Cargojet sends you to NewWark to get a 727 up and running. Fail and they will never send you to trouble shoot another airplane, you will be stuck in Heavy maintenance.

That's some of my advice, I'll post if I hear of some opportunities like Cargojet, now, huge contract job in Iqualluit, get resume in, get packed.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#235 Post by God of Store keepers » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:25 pm

According this this topic "Future AME Discouraged",
How about Future A&P?
How about others aviation mechanics in other countries?
Can I assume aviation mechanic jobs have no future?
I want to change into this career and I don't want another bad career move in my early 30s.

A&P is the US term, whats the difference? tonnes. The IACO more easily recognizes the Canadian and other countries AME programmes because things are done differently in the US. Wan't to work abroad? get AME training, avoid US training.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#236 Post by NeverBlue » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:05 am

After a year my wage went to 15 and change an hour
...from $13 to $15 (20%) in one year and that's not enough?????...and you haven't even got a license yet???
I make no money and have gone so far into debt its ridiculous.
...you make it sound like rocket science!

Just some general advice for all:

get educated, get a career, get certifications and certificates, get a good job with good pay,

THEN get a family, mortgage, carpayment, debt!!!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#237 Post by flatface » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:41 am

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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#238 Post by Stumper » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:03 pm

+1

Very well put.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#239 Post by CanMaintGrad » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Wow this was quite the read. I find it weird no one has brought up the skills of an AME. In terms of working a job that allows for the development of so many different skills. Some of the AMEs I know are incredible craftsman, they understand so many different components and systems and have the skills to build or repair almost anything.
I don't think it should be overlooked that it is important for some young people to be skillful. Some of us hold to the idea that its really about what you can do, a expensive qualification might help but its the skills in your hands and the knowledge in your head that really matter.
So to the guys who are saying avoid the industry or get out of it do you feel like you would be as skilled today in so many different areas if you hadn't been in aviation? Isn't there value in going to work and spending the shift working on your skills? familiarizing yourself with electronics, ventilation, mechanics, hydraulics, pneumatics, this list goes on and on.
Some AMEs have homebuilt aircraft, it flies and they built it in the garage. That is a great achievement and why do it? because they can.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#240 Post by Dash 27 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:59 pm

Everyone can rant on, and go for it. Isn't that what these forums are for?

I could care less about what evryone is ranting about, but back to the base topic and I'm going to be honest here. If you want to fix stuff and make money, stay out of aviation "PERIOD". If you don't cut it in automotive, aviation isn't your direction. You'll make less money, you have no life (if you want to get anywhere with it), and you can't pull over on the shoulder when your engine quits. Dont get me wrong, I love my job and I'm good at it. I've traveled the world from the north pole to the south pole and overseas. Ive been everywhere i wanted to go and got paid to do it.

What every nuwbie needs to know is this. AME is not a recognized trade. Skills are not transferrable. If you're into it for any length of time and want to switch careers, you're screwed unless you know someone willing to sign you off up to 3rd year apprentice to even be able to pay your bills. The bottom line is that any career in aviation is a lifestyle, and be prepared to make sacrifices to be sucessful. If youre passionate, go for it but, don't cheat yourself, if you don't see yourself sticking it out by the time you get lisenced, don't hesitate, get the hell out.

PS: the industry is fu*ked right now, thank TC and SMS for taking the experience off the floor. How are the experienced AME's supoosed to train apprentices when they're forced to push paper?
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#241 Post by NeverBlue » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:47 am

Skills are not transferrable
???????????????????????

...electrons flow differently in aviation electronics????

:shock:
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#242 Post by 212wrench » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:56 am

Piston engines work differently as well. Composites cure differently and are laid up differently. Brakes are different, as is the whole brake system. Bolts, screws, nuts and washers, totally different. Turbine engines in pumping stations, no similarity to aircraft engines at all!!!??. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#243 Post by Dash 27 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:35 pm

by skills r not transferrable, I mean we are not a recognized "TRADE" in Canada. We have to start from scratch if we want to change careers. ie. education, apprenticeship hours etc...
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#244 Post by NeverBlue » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:43 am

there are tonnes of jobs out there that aren't considered "TRADES"

...transportation, communication, manufacturing, power generation.


a few years ago there was a mass exodus of avionics techs going to public transit...they certainly didn't have to start all over...some went right out of AME basic training schools with no education in public transit at all.

I'm not sure what connection you're making between recognized trades and transferrable skills.

If you can maintain aircraft communication systems you can maintain pretty much any communication system with minimal training.
If you can maintain aircraft navigation systems you can maintain any navigation systems with minimal training.
If you can maintain aircraft cabin entertainment systems.....

If you can maintain aircraft gas turbine engines you can maintain any gas turbine engine in other industries.

If you can maintain electric motors and generators on aircraft...guess what?

anyone can fix cars and trucks and boats and busses and trains and golf carts and motorcycles and scooters and radios and cell phones and computers and alarm systems etc...you don't HAVE to be licensed for any of them.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#245 Post by The Weasel » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:09 am

Yes, it is not a recognized trade because an AME licence doesn't allow you to carry out the work: it's an inspection and certification licence. It is unfortunately a bit of a middle area gray zone (not a trade and not a degree), however, for those willing to pursue it, the inspection and certification aspect can be used to your advantage outside of aviation (ie: transferable) in particular if you're wanting to go the auditing/quality/QA route.

There are some organizations working on getting AME apprentices recognized as a trade, and there are some government and other programs (and likely varies province to province) that provide some financial/tax/training credits in that respect. Some people say that getting the AME industry away from the inspection/certification licence and more towards a trade would drive down wages and dilute quality (think of large MROs having shops full of half-trained ACAs/SCAs to do the work but only a handful of licenced AMEs to sign the books at the end).

While AME skills might not be directly transferable, having the mechanical and troubleshooting background is a general skill transferable to many industries. If you know how to troubleshoot and fix stuff, you can do more than just aviation. The world is full of stuff that needs fixing and maintaining day-to-day.

At the end of the day, being an AME isn't for everyone and it has it's pros and cons.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#246 Post by brownbear » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:35 am

Oddly though I have a "Journeyman" card from both Ontario and Manitoba and provincially they see it as a trade. And that is from the 90's.

I did an apprentice program from Stevenson though. So they track you the same as the general trades. I had to report progress all the way through. Different than a college grad who the provinces don't even look at.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#247 Post by wair » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:43 pm

Well it can't be that bad - I'v been in the industry for over 30 years - still employed and mostly still enjoy it. - I am a DOM and looking for a mid term apprentice
warren@halcyon.aero
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#248 Post by starheli » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:10 pm

It's all what you want it to be!
Telling people you are an aircraft engineer is something you can say with honor and spark a conversation, not just "I'm a plumber, I unplug people's S**t" or "I work in the oil patch, I dog f**k all day, make a pile of cash but have no care or honor in my job"
You are going to get guys completely sugar coating it and saying it is the best thing in the world (they are just too high on life or unrealistic) and you are going to have the grumpy losers telling you there's no hope and it is the worst thing ever, don't do it (they are probably just ticked off because they couldn't make it past a spot on the ladder or just made bad choices)
I have never tried the fixed wing side of it (just never had the interest, helicopters was what I wanted) so this is strictly coming from fling wing perspective. I have friends out there that make plenty of money and live great happy lives and I have friends out there that can't stand it and just live in depression over it. I myself came into it with a passion and desire to work with helicopters and worked my a** off with ridiculous days, shifts that turned from hours into days and just bit the bullet of low pay as an apprentice and just had one passion and it was helicopters. Ever hour I worked I had a smile on my face (unless I couldn't figure something out lol) and enjoyed it. Days flew by, years just felt like days but all because I had a passion for it and loved what I did. 6.5 years later I find myself still with the same company as the director of maintenance, only 26 years old, beautiful girlfriend of 4 years, new company truck and just bought my dream hobby farm last summer. Yea, my phone can ring at any hour of the day and my monday to friday 8-5 job can be greatly extended but I barely need an alarm to get up because I enjoy my career and I feel and know I am part of something important and make a difference everyday at work. Everyday has new challenges, I can take time off when I need it or want it, I make plenty of money (in helicopters, the more they fly, the more you get paid...my weekends I have off and the helicopters are flying, I am at home getting paid for every hour they fly) to live a happy life and I still love it. It is a 24/7 commitment but I use to be a farmer as a child/teenager and it is no different, except instead of cows we have helicopters but when you want to leave, you can simply lock the doors and walk away.
A problem with this industry is it's structure. A lot of companies are cheap and pay terrible wages because they are trying to bring costs down to have lower rates for the customer. This leads to unsatisfied employees that cause a stir and down talk the industry. There are a lot of guys out there that will say don't do it, it is the worst thing ever etc etc and you look at these guys and see they are still doing it....just look above, not sure if these guys are actually still in it but they are on an aviation forum talking about this industry. You would think if it was so bad and horrible for them they wouldn't be involved and to be honest I wish they would leave the industry, there is no need for those guys. We need more young blood in here and more numbers so we can draw more attention to this industry and get the right people involved. Company rates need to be standardized or regulated so we can increase wages and pay good benefits to get quality workers; for heavens sake a general helicopter shop rate is around $90/hour...it costs more to get your damn car fixed than a helicopter!!! Poor attitude leads to poor workmanship and a negative company atmosphere.
This topic can spark an endless forum of needing to increase rates and wages and etc etc but that's not why we are here. I will be honest with you, if you don't have the passion for it or interest and just want a "job" (just over broke) I do not suggest it. Aviation is a cruel mistress! If you have a passion and true desire, come join us with the mentality of moving ahead and making a difference and get into the right place, if you are somewhere and do not like it, try something else or a different company. There are a lot of different operators out there doing different work and you need to find what you enjoy! If you are happy standing on an assembly line doing the same task over and over , do it but don't expect top pay benefits. If you want to get out there and work your ass off and go non-stop, do it, but cover your ass and make sure you earn what you are worth. I can tell you that the possibility to live a great life and make lots of money is there, but you need to want it and earn it and then you won't have a job but a career. This industry needs hard working people with initiative to move forward and rid of the grumpy pricks that drag us down. If there is a better attitude throughout the entire industry, then maybe, just maybe, that can climb the ladder up to management we can start to work forward on bettering it as a whole.
I, myself, wouldn't give it up for anything. I treat my helicopters like my kids and have grown a close relationship with them...I know that sounds weird but it is truly a lifestyle and it grows on you, making you feel important and needed. You will never stop learning and it is challenging and will test you.
Again, this is all spoken from a helicopter stand point where you are responsible for the aircraft as a whole, not one simple task you perform over and over. Either way, when you talk to people in the industry, whether they complain or preach, you will find a common ground and that is they are hooked. Even if they whine and complain, why are they still here? They have the option to leave and don't because they need it. I grows on you and becomes a part of you. Be prepared for a life changing experience and only you have the power to make it a good one!
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#249 Post by chowda » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:30 am

WOW!


Way to set everything and everybody straight!


:prayer:


And you're just 26!


WOW!


FOR HONOR AND GLORY!! CHHHAAAAAARRRGGE!!!


:lol:

Thanks, I needed that. Funny read.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#250 Post by helotech » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:06 pm

I spent 20 years in the Air Force and got paid to go to school, never had to pay for a tool, got plenty of good training, travelled the world (including Afghanistan) and lots of room for promotion if you worked hard. I never regretted a minute of it and retired at 40 with an immediate pension. I have been an AME for almost 10 years now and still love it. The Military is not for everyone but it worked for me.
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