Confused, is this duty day legal?

[EatSleepFly]

I work for a 705 outfit and confused with cars 700.19.....

If I break the 36hrs in 7 days... Before I start working again do I have to have a full 3 days off?

Example...

2 days off ... 6 on
2 days off... 3 on
2 days off... 8 on (last day was a deadhead due IROPS)

Thus before I start another pairing because I broke 36hrs in 7... Must I have 3 days off... Or will I be ok again after 36hrs.

The CARS is very unclear about this... And I been getting conflicting info.

Thanks.

[jschnurr]

You need 36 hr in 7 days or 3 days in 17 days.

You just flew 8 days. You can't reset with the 36 hrs this time. You should have had 3 days off prior to your 8 day run.

Edited to remove erroneous info...

[Aeros]

I'll second what jschnurr said about the need for 3 days off. That being said, you didn't have three days off (your message said two days) before your eight-day pairing so you can't use the 3/17 scheme. Consequently you cannot work any more day until you receive three consecutive days free from duty. (That's also why you wouldn't have been able to operate a flight on the 8th day and could only deadhead.)

The Guidance Material Concerning Flight Time and Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods covers the scenario that you describe.

[J31]

You need to see 3 days off in 17 to continue to fly. If not you are stuck in 36 hours in 7 days.....and there is no flexibility on either. So if you do not have 3 days off in the past 17 you have violated the CAR's by working 8 days. There are no "lets" on days off.

To further muddy the waters if your company has the required ops speck the 3 days can be replaced with 80 hours.

[EatSleepFly]

Thanks for the explanation guys! Much appreciated for the clarification...

As I pilot I have a hard time understanding the lawyer lingo.

[Chaxterium]

What Aeros said is absolutely correct. But since you only had 2 days off you in fact broke the regs as soon as you worked the 7th day in a row. Before you can exceed 6 days in a row you need 3 days off. Period. You cannot work a 7th (or 8th day in your case) and THEN have 3 days off. The three days off must come prior. You only had two days off so you were still in the 36 in 7 schedule. You cannot change from the 36 in 7 schedule to the 3 in 17 schedule without 3 days off first. Same goes the other way as well. If you're on a 3 in 17 schedule you cannot switch to the 36 in 7 schedule without 3 days off first.

Cheers,
Chax

[AOW]

What Aeros said is absolutely correct. But since you only had 2 days off you in fact broke the regs as soon as you worked the 7th day in a row. Before you can exceed 6 days in a row you need 3 days off. Period. You cannot work a 7th (or 8th day in your case) and THEN have 3 days off. The three days off must come prior. You only had two days off so you were still in the 36 in 7 schedule. You cannot change from the 36 in 7 schedule to the 3 in 17 schedule without 3 days off first. Same goes the other way as well. If you're on a 3 in 17 schedule you cannot switch to the 36 in 7 schedule without 3 days off first.

Cheers,
Chax

I understand that this would be truly a violation if s/he had operated on the 7th day, but doesn't it make a difference that the last day was a d/h? Otherwise the company would have had to provide 36 hours off away from base, which might not be too attractive to the pilot's family, or the company accountants!

[Chaxterium]

but doesn't it make a difference that the last day was a d/h?

Hi AOW,

No it doesn't make a difference because the deadhead was on the 8th day. According to the OP he worked 7 days in a row prior to that. Since the OP did not have 3 consecutive days off prior s/he was only legally allowed to work 6 days in a row.

Cheers,
Chax

[Flying Nutcracker]

Was there at any point 80 hours free from duty?

[Gorgons]

I'm going to disagree with all of you, its 1 off within 7 or 3 off within 17 so you have options. You can work 14 days consecutive in the 705 world, at which point you have to have 3 days off. As long as you meet the 1 off within 7 reg you can run 14 days consecutive after your 1 off within 7.

example... you can work 6 on and then 36 hours off, work another 6 then 36 hours off and then work 14 days consecutive, at which point you would require 3 days off before you could work again. Obviously you still have to stay within the 7, 30, 90 and 365 day limits but none the less your still legal with the scenario above.

[Chaxterium]

Sorry. But with all due respect that's flat out wrong.

The intent was to provide the flexibility of two scheduling schemes, but it was expected that each scheme would be used independently from the other in a more or less continuous state. The regulation is not meant to authorize a mix of the two schemes in an arrangement that will produce a working schedule conducive to fatigue. The only acceptable way to change from one scheme to the other is to provide the pilot 3 consecutive calendar days off.

Thus, the operator is allowed the opportunity to change a pilot’s schedule from a scheme of 36 consecutive hours off in each 7 days, to a scheme of 3 consecutive calendar days off in each 17 days, provided that the 3 consecutive calendar days off are awarded to the pilot at the beginning of the 17 day period. Similarly, a schedule cannot revert from 3 consecutive days off in 17 days, to 36 consecutive hours off in 7 days without initially providing the pilot with 3 consecutive days off.

I suggest you have a gander at this:

http://tinyurl.com/mvpao5j

Cheers,
Chax

[Chaxterium]

In your example above you state I could work 6 days in a row, followed by 36 hours of rest and then I could work 14 in a row and then need 3 days off before I could fly again. If I did that, then at the end of my 14th day of work I would have worked 21 days, with only 36 hours of rest. In that scenario do I have 36 hours of rest in the last 7 days? No. Because I just finished 14 days in a row. Do I have 3 days off in the last 17? No. Because my last rest period was only 36 hours. Therefore you are in contravention of the regs. End of story.

Cheers,
Chax

[Gorgons]

I stand corrected... Couldn't find a date on when that particular piece of guidance material was created and published, that said it didn't exist six or seven years ago, maybe longer, memory isn't what it used to be. But this very question always came up in TC audits and the question put back on TC was show us where in the regulations it says we can't. There was no documented interpretation or opinion of the 1 off within 7 or 3 within 17 regulation, just the written regulation. Fatigue issues aside, the company I worked for routinely "extended" crews if a problem arose with an incoming rotational crewmember by giving the "in" crew 36 hours off after day 6 and then running them 14 days. In the day TC would audit and say that wasn't the intent, however nowhere in the regulations or standards did they state the intent and the legal opinion of the day was it says 1 off within 7 or 3 within 17 so that's what they did, without any ramifications from TC.


EDIT ... I looked again, looks like this document came into existence in May of 2010, prior to publishing the "intent" of the regulation they didn't have a leg to stand on, the regulation clearly said or. I suspect even with the guidance material a good lawyer would have a field day with the regulation as written because the wording has never changed, they would argue guidance isn't regulation or law. I don't recommend you test my theory unless you have very deep pockets and lots of spare time.

[Chaxterium]

I suspect even with the guidance material a good lawyer would have a field day with the regulation as written because the wording has never changed, they would argue guidance isn't regulation or law.

Fair point. I've often wondered that myself!

Cheers,
Chax

[J31]

Since the CAR's came out in 1996 people are still trying to do 36 hours off in 17 days. It does not work or read that way!

There is no interpretation of the regulation! It is one OR the other......so if you do not see 36 hours off in 7 days then you must see 3 days off in 17 days. There are no other options! (except 80 hours instead of 3 days)

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#700_15

700.19 (1) (a) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days;