My buddy owns a ground based courier service. He sees potential with using an airplane to transport small packages to places around. He suggested that I rent a twin engine aircraft from my local flying club and help him fly packages around. He would then reimburse the flying costs through the money that he receives from his customers.
Can this be done?
Is it legal?
Air Courier Idea
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I was asked to put together a Business Plan detailing the Logistics of a courier Co. We examined, ground air and sea, local, national, transborder as well as international.
Lots of things to know and manage properly! You need a strong logistics entity if this is to be done with a lower overhead per parcel cost!
Lots of things to know and manage properly! You need a strong logistics entity if this is to be done with a lower overhead per parcel cost!
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett-
flyincanuck
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fatdumbandlazy
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You may be able to operate without an AOC but not with rented airplanes. The trick is to offer courier service, not air courier. You do not charge specifically for carriage by air. The airplane is simply what you use to get the packages to their destination. This is how Fedex and UPS operated for many years. All of Fedex Caravans were privately owned, hence the single engine IFR. They were in the package delivery business, not the airline business. What you need is a good corperate lawyer to advise what is legal and what is not. Yo are embarking on a perilous journey. It has been tried before by people with more experience and resources than you appear to have. But more business sucess stories have happened when "experts" said it couldn't be done. Ask Mr. Smith, the founder of Fedex.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Cat Driver
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If I was offered money to deliver stuff from A to B in my airplane I would fly the stuff from A to B and collect the money, TC has zero to do with that senario.
As long as the agreement remains between you and the person that gives you the money why would you want to involve TC?
Cat
As long as the agreement remains between you and the person that gives you the money why would you want to involve TC?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat,
When your good your good, but sometimes you give really BAD advice for the sake of a your beef with TC.
AZN; If you do what you are planning you are operation in a grey area. Do more research than a post on AV/Can B4 your first flight. I would even call TC and run what you are thinking of doing past them. Do it from a payphone if you want. The last thing you want is a violation or to wreck a plane and not be covered by insurance because you were operaterating on the edge of the law.
Good luck
When your good your good, but sometimes you give really BAD advice for the sake of a your beef with TC.
AZN; If you do what you are planning you are operation in a grey area. Do more research than a post on AV/Can B4 your first flight. I would even call TC and run what you are thinking of doing past them. Do it from a payphone if you want. The last thing you want is a violation or to wreck a plane and not be covered by insurance because you were operaterating on the edge of the law.
Good luck
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Cat Driver
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" When your good your good, but sometimes you give really BAD advice for the sake of a your beef with TC. "
neechi :
Hows things going?
In two private messages to ANZ027 I explained exactly what you mentioned about insurance and advised him not to attempt to operate a package delivery service without an OC because he would come under suspicion as soon as he started a regular delivery schedule. It is obvious from his post that he does not really understand all the ins and outs of operating a private aircraft.
If you read my post again you will find that I was only commenting on what I would do, I was not advising the author of this thread to do as I would. As far as my thoughts on TC are concerned that is another issue altogether and I personally could care less about any rules they think they can force me personally to abide by.
For my whole career I lived by the rules, that was the biggest mistake I ever made, for living by the rlues my reward was unemployment thanks to TC and their crimminal minded top management who think nothing of breaking all the rules to protect one of their own...
...but hey we have been over my situation forever and in the last couple of years I have decided that breaking the rules if I have to will be exactly what I intend to do.
From now on my only rule will be self preservation and using my knowledge of aviation to keep me alive and safe. And if any TC enforcer wants to play hard ball with me they do so at their own risk, and if they have even one brain cell they will stay away from me.
So once again, I agree that the author of this question would only lose if he tried to operate a pakage delivery business without an OC.
So you see I'm still good ain't I??
Cat
neechi :
Hows things going?
In two private messages to ANZ027 I explained exactly what you mentioned about insurance and advised him not to attempt to operate a package delivery service without an OC because he would come under suspicion as soon as he started a regular delivery schedule. It is obvious from his post that he does not really understand all the ins and outs of operating a private aircraft.
If you read my post again you will find that I was only commenting on what I would do, I was not advising the author of this thread to do as I would. As far as my thoughts on TC are concerned that is another issue altogether and I personally could care less about any rules they think they can force me personally to abide by.
For my whole career I lived by the rules, that was the biggest mistake I ever made, for living by the rlues my reward was unemployment thanks to TC and their crimminal minded top management who think nothing of breaking all the rules to protect one of their own...
...but hey we have been over my situation forever and in the last couple of years I have decided that breaking the rules if I have to will be exactly what I intend to do.
From now on my only rule will be self preservation and using my knowledge of aviation to keep me alive and safe. And if any TC enforcer wants to play hard ball with me they do so at their own risk, and if they have even one brain cell they will stay away from me.
So once again, I agree that the author of this question would only lose if he tried to operate a pakage delivery business without an OC.
So you see I'm still good ain't I??
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
AZN027,
Contrary to an earlier message cargo is a great gig to be in! I think there's far more security and stability in the cargo business than the bloodbath in the pax side of things. How many pax airlines go belly up each year. Now tell me how many cargo operators bite the bullet (yes, there are the likes of Kitty Hawk in the states)
Problem with the small operators is there's more of them than you can shake a stick at. B99s, Carvans, Metros, KingAirs, you name it.
Not sure what geographic region you're talking about, but I assume a prety small area if the thought was to rent a flying club aircraft. If so, there are hot shot couriers that will do direct drives for less than the cost of an aircraft. If you go outside of a small area there are courier companies (eg Apple Express) that specialize in "next flight out" service and will literally drive to the airport for the next flight etc. Beyond that you get into competing with the big players that could offer far better rates based on economy of scale.
Without knowing the area you're talking about I cant see it working unless you had a dedicated client base to ensure your costs were covered on each flight.
If you wanted to start a small air service with your own aircraft you'd be better off looking to a major operator looking for feeder service (eg YHM-YGK etc). I've seen a lot of small operators try to make a go of it but cant compete for the contracts with the likes of Prince Edward Air, Skylink, Air Georgian, Provincial etc (those are some Ontario/East Coast examples).
Either way, dont listen to any nay sayers about not getting into Cargo. It's a solid side of aviation. Not glamorous, but provides for a steady living.
IMHO of course...
Contrary to an earlier message cargo is a great gig to be in! I think there's far more security and stability in the cargo business than the bloodbath in the pax side of things. How many pax airlines go belly up each year. Now tell me how many cargo operators bite the bullet (yes, there are the likes of Kitty Hawk in the states)
Problem with the small operators is there's more of them than you can shake a stick at. B99s, Carvans, Metros, KingAirs, you name it.
Not sure what geographic region you're talking about, but I assume a prety small area if the thought was to rent a flying club aircraft. If so, there are hot shot couriers that will do direct drives for less than the cost of an aircraft. If you go outside of a small area there are courier companies (eg Apple Express) that specialize in "next flight out" service and will literally drive to the airport for the next flight etc. Beyond that you get into competing with the big players that could offer far better rates based on economy of scale.
Without knowing the area you're talking about I cant see it working unless you had a dedicated client base to ensure your costs were covered on each flight.
If you wanted to start a small air service with your own aircraft you'd be better off looking to a major operator looking for feeder service (eg YHM-YGK etc). I've seen a lot of small operators try to make a go of it but cant compete for the contracts with the likes of Prince Edward Air, Skylink, Air Georgian, Provincial etc (those are some Ontario/East Coast examples).
Either way, dont listen to any nay sayers about not getting into Cargo. It's a solid side of aviation. Not glamorous, but provides for a steady living.
IMHO of course...
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co-joe
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Ah the 'chisel charter' idea.
If they pay for more than your fuel and oil, then see: wasn't me's post.
If only bare operating costs are met then it's 'barely legal' (try googling that phrase and see what comes up
) But keep in mind your now competing with legitimate operators.
If they pay for more than your fuel and oil, then see: wasn't me's post.
If only bare operating costs are met then it's 'barely legal' (try googling that phrase and see what comes up
) But keep in mind your now competing with legitimate operators.
