Waterloo PC12, FO

[Doc]

Salary will be in the 28K range. Seriously? 28K? To live where.....Mom's basement?
Line forms (and it will form) to the left....

[Prairiefire]

That's only $2000 less than FO in YK to start and YK involves a ramp stint. I don't know what living expenses are down south, but ya... you see where this is going.

[Doc]

Done a little research. Yup, you can do better. It's a "profession", remember? Look, up in the sky! It's a Bird! It's a plane! It's just another dumb pilot working for peanuts!

[Boreas]

Isn't that around the guaranteed wage at Encore for a new F/O? At least this gig is
in Waterloo and on a single-pilot machine...

I hear you though. We should definitely get the college working on this case.

[Clodhopper]

Isn't that around the guaranteed wage at Encore for a new F/O?

And

We should definitely get the college working on this case.

One, even if they could convince some small operator to pay double, say $56k for a PC12 FO (not saying the position is worth that), Encore will still pay $28k, and the guy who takes the PC12 FO job will jump ship in a heartbeat to take the 50% off Encore position.

There aren't enough self-respecting pilots in Canada to steer the HMCS Pilot Pay away from the waterfall.

[MAD DOGGY]

That's embarrassing....please fly OUR company plane for NOTHING !!! C'mon, please remove your job ad !!

[checkremarks]

Salary will be in the 28K range. Seriously? 28K? To live where.....Mom's basement?
Line forms (and it will form) to the left....

Listen, I don't want to start a war here but this is the reality of the industry today folks. I applied to that job because it's actually more than I'm making now.

Last year I spent 10 months instructing out of BC. Great experience, but in the 10 months I spent there full time flight instructing I made $12,560. This is clearly an entry level job used as a stepping stone to another company. To be honest, if I can survive paying rent, gas and food on that budget for the year in BC of all places. I'm sure the 28K range is easily doable.

Don't believe me? I know a few people working under the "mentor program" at Air Georgian who make that much in a year on a Beech 1900 and TORONTO based!

Sure you don't have a lot to spend on lavish things but in this day and age, I'd say its better than nothing.

[esp803]

10 months I spent there full time flight instructing I made $12,560.

Interesting, I made that back when I was in highschool selling TV's.... part time... and it didn't pay particularly well. Some of the wages I see posted are disgusting. I've turned downed several jobs that would have "advanced" my career due to shit pay/lifestyle. Turbine Time, Multi-time, Float time... It will all come with time. Do you know what doesn't come back? Your Twenties. Don't settle for garbage wages/lifestyle to advance your career.

E

[Masters Off]

@ Checkermarks.

Check Pilotpay.com, all F/Os at GGN make $28,697 to start. Doesn't matter if you're one hour away from Captain, mentor or cadet.


And as to the job ad, I only give one thing as kudos, they actually posted a wage.
How many job ads do you know that just state "Salary based on experience". If they're asking us to apply, shouldn't we know what we're up against? (Then again, they probably get so many applicants anyways, it doesn't matter what they say)

[Sky_Conqueror]

It seems that many people will not be applying due to wages! 28,000 for FO? Seriously? In the GTA??? I was making 34000$ on the ramp last year! This is ridiculous. It looks like its only going to be low-timers applying. But it looks like they require some experience on the PC-12. So good morning to the vicious circle....

[Doc]

The only reason these companies get away with paying these silly wages.....wait for it.....wait for it....is because so many of you will work for these silly wages. It's that simple. And we think it's a "profession"????

[Sky_Conqueror]

Some people have no choice bro! In this country where getting a job in aviation is as odd as winning the lottery, people that have spent more than 70 000$ in training will flock to any job they can get their hands on! If this damn country and those goddam insurance companies would stop wanting guys with 1000tt for Navajo FO positions...believe me that jobs at 28 000 would not exist anymore! Why? Because people would actually have a CHOICE!!! I pitty for those low-timers. Change the hiring policy and minimums: aviation slave wages will dissapear! I guarantee that!

[Clodhopper]

Change the hiring policy and minimums: aviation slave wages will dissapear! I guarantee that!

In an ideal world with rose-coloured glasses, maybe. If every pilot actually attached a proper value to their experience level, maybe.

Encore, Sky Regional, Rouge (sorry, rouge) have all proven that even with absolutely terrible wages, pilots will be distracted by the chance to fly bigger machines with more screens, fancy buttons, and powerful computers than what they currently fly.

AC could offer E190 FO positions for 10K a year, and they'd have a stack of resumes a mile high...

Rather than make more money by raising ticket prices across the board, companies would rather keep prices the same, and drive down costs. Losing battle for the little fish.

[CellPh2]

[quoteRather than make more money by raising ticket prices across the board, companies would rather keep prices the same, and drive down costs. Losing battle for the little fish.][/quote]

+100

Maybe weed out the trash bags who show up at the airport in their PJ's for their 400 dollar round trip to Cuba. I wish ticket prices would go up...

[Changes in Latitudes]

And as to the job ad, I only give one thing as kudos, they actually posted a wage.

By your reasoning, you could break into someone's house, steal everything and then torch the place, but kudos for having the guts to confess to the deed.

28k...
I have this reaction often while reading avcanada lately:

[Masters Off]

Come on, isn't it nice someone actually told you how shitty they're going to pay?
What's the point in putting a resume to a company that wont tell you what they offer? Yes, I know, there will be hundreds, if not thousands of resumes in that pile anyways.

I find there's three motivators in our industry. Machine, money and lifestyle.

I would venture to say that a high percentage of people are interested in what machine they fly. One guy I know for example, has sat as a Second Officer for years. He justifies the fact that he hasn't touched the controls of anything in so long, because it's a Boeing.

Money, well, there's a few folks I know that work in the middle of nowhere, rough places, harsh climate, long hours and odd jobs in order to get paid quite a bit better than similar experienced pilots. Surveying on a Navajo could net you $80K for start pay. Try flying for KD Air, Keystone, Carson or something similar and make more than poverty wages on the same machine.

Lifestyle. A lot of younger guys I find have no interest in smelling roses. They don't care to spend any time enjoying the environment they're in, culture they're experiencing. For those willing to make the drive, most are trying to get home as soon as they can. Not just from the north, either. For the few that do enjoy the place they fly from, the money will come down the road (usually), but they seem generally happier than the rest of us who continually try to escape their haven.

On a side note, I also notice many of the pilots who train and live in Southern Ontario, among other places, have a discomfort with moving away. That's why you see chisel charters in such places. The fight to get an instructor rating and have a job at places in the GTA could see you sitting months doing dispatch or ramp until a spot opens up.

So why have so many resumes for a job like this? Cool machine, maybe. Money (we all know) no. But for those who live in Waterloo, or an hours drive, this is certainly a hard job to turn down. And yes, you could pay them 10K and they'd still take it (some of them)

One last note. Supply and demand. The demand of pilots right now, is slightly more than it was in the recent past (2008 recession, for example). However, with so many 200 hour wonders or even 1000 hour wonders, why pay someone more if you don't have to? Some companies have even decreased pay scale and relative benefits in the past few years. Yet, when specific experience or training is needed in an individual, we suddenly see the pay go up. If you don't agree, look at the Air Canada/Georgian Cadetship. This proves that anyone with a CPL M-IFR could fly a twin-turbine aircraft. So, why pay anyone else more, to do the exact same job. They have no experience, and the job still gets done. So what is their worth? (All in the companies eyes)

Do I agree with what we get paid? No. But, at least I try to understand why pay scales are set as such. Still makes me sick though, exploiting what so many people love to do, for the least amount of pay/benefits in return.

[esp803]

I pitty for those low-timers.

I was making 34000$ on the ramp last year!

I suspect you still fall into the low timer category, I still consider myself a low timer with over 3000hrs.

Some people have no choice bro!

bullshit! Everybody has a choice, it's people who think they don't have a choice that lower wages for the rest of us. I've been offered and declined many positions that would have "advanced" my career. 42k for a king air captain that has to live in Rankin for half the year, F&*% that. I have never accepted a job with a less then acceptable let alone liveable wage. Rant over.

E

[Sky_Conqueror]

To esp308, I had to leave the country to get more respectable jobs! I now am in South East Asia flying the A320 right seat. NEVER would I have had an offer such as this with our stupid idiotic mentality we have in Canada with the hours I had 2 years ago. Never! I make more than anyone would ever make at the level I am at. I got that position with less than 500 hours at the time, making 85 000$ after taxes first year, + per diems, + allowances. Will we have this in Canada???? Never. Yes I am still in the low-timer category. But I am a respected low-timer with a real job. Thats what has separated me.

esp803, you better have to review your sources in the current industry man! How many experienced people I know that are jobless and have sent hundreds of resumes. Very little people received answers. And the people who did receive responses accepted those jobs. Did these people have a choice??? You just seem like the typical city boy who always had everything he ever wanted and never wanted to get his hands dirty. Blame the system, don't blame the pilots. I've met pilots from all over the word during layovers and they all laugh at the idea that one has to wash bathrooms and throw bags around to get to fly. People who perform these jobs in Asia are individuals that did not have the chance to have an advanced education like most of us. This is how degrading getting an aviation job is in Canada. And I will never stop critizising.

[FICU]

To give some perspective on the pay, my first job was in a PC-12 and it paid $25,000 base. I lived in very affordable Winnipeg where at that time you could by a great house for $100,000.

That time was over 14 years ago.

Man this industry sucks!

[Sky_Conqueror]

So technically, if we follow the inflation and the trend: A great house nowadays goes for 300,000 base price. You where payed 25,000, 14 years ago. Technically, we should receive around 64,000$ for that same PC-12 FO position today.

[esp803]

Hahaha, I must have hit a nerve. You got me though, City boy who got spoon fed my whole life, never worked a day in my life, I'd probably cry if ever I had to get my hands dirty. .

I think you actually re-enforced my point though, You had a job on the ramp that paid more then this F/O position, it wasn't for you, you went out and accepted a position that paid triple. Good on ya. If more people did exactly what you did, we wouldn't be in this predicament. I stand by my statement that everybody has a choice to decline terrible conditions. If it's terrible, go work the rigs and make some money, find a trade, tree plant, I don't care but you do have choice.

But I am a respected low-timer with a real job

Do you know why I will never fly on Air France? Because their pilots have never really flown an airplane. I like getting on an airplane knowing that who ever is in the front has flown a small float plane, piston twin, done some off strip work, aerobatics, anything that develops good hands and feet. It makes me nervous boarding flights where the pilots have only ever dealt with FMS, EFIS, Auto Pilot, INS and all the other bells and whistles. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to think that you have to be skilled to fly an airliner, but when shit hits the fan, I want someone who can dead stick it in and save my ass.

E

[jpilot77]

Do you know why I will never fly on Air France? Because their pilots have never really flown an airplane. I like getting on an airplane knowing that who ever is in the front has flown a small float plane, piston twin, done some off strip work, aerobatics, anything that develops good hands and feet. It makes me nervous boarding flights where the pilots have only ever dealt with FMS, EFIS, Auto Pilot, INS and all the other bells and whistles. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to think that you have to be skilled to fly an airliner, but when shit hits the fan, I want someone who can dead stick it in and save my ass.

+ 1

[Boreas]

To esp308, I had to leave the country to get more respectable jobs! I now am in South East Asia flying the A320 right seat. NEVER would I have had an offer such as this with our stupid idiotic mentality we have in Canada with the hours I had 2 years ago. Never! I make more than anyone would ever make at the level I am at. I got that position with less than 500 hours at the time, making 85 000$ after taxes first year, + per diems, + allowances. Will we have this in Canada???? Never. Yes I am still in the low-timer category. But I am a respected low-timer with a real job. Thats what has separated me.

Oh yeah? Who do you work for and how much did you pay for your type ratting?

And no, I'm not interested. Just calling you out your bullshit story.

[thatlowtimer]

But I am a respected low-timer with a real job

Excuse me sir, there may only be 1 respected lowtimer and as you can tell by my name, it is I, "thatlowtimer".

I'm only joking of course, but seriously, what the hell is a respected low timer anyways? That doesn't even make any sense, if you're just trying to troll people you are doing a horrible job.

ESP is certainly no slouch when it comes to work, if memory serves me correct he flies or has flown a caravan up north. Not that that actually means anything to you, but you should research it.

Anyways, back to working the flaps and props for this guy, don't let your jet time blind your ignorance.

Cheerio!

[checkremarks]

Respected low timer? What the hell does that mean?

There's no such thing as a respected low timer in the industry. By the way, how much was that type rating on that airbus? And how's life in Asia? Enjoying the lonely days off?

The fact is that Canada has high aviation standards, like the previous guy mentioned about Air France, they have no stick and rudder time, just like you don't when you got hired at less than 500.