flow

[encore]

I missed the meeting but I got the coles notes.

No date of hire for Encore.
First bunch get slotted at the bottom of the list, the rest get some system where a number is assigned for every west Jetter off the street is hired.
All pay starts at day one for westjet.
Forced to move to westjet when your number comes up or you loose your number.

Encore won't have a vote but WJPA has to approve.

Sounds like a mess.

[JSYK]

Don't forget, you must be in "Good Standing" too!
I am sure a really scientific process with absolutely no politics or 15th hand rumours will ever influence that status for anyone.

[anonymity]

Wow, crappy pay and a putrid carrot for good measure.
From some second hand info, I received conformation that the take home pay for Encore Capt would have been about 1000.00 less per month than my current FO pay, absolutely pathetic that anyone would accept that to begin with.
This person is also very dismayed at the fact that he/she is looking at a couple years of 70 hours/mth, working 20 days, I can imagine how they feel now finding out that the sacrifice is rewarded with no credit for service, to take over to mainline. Let the whipsaw begin!
WJPA failed miserably to recognise that without something to gain, Encore pilots have nothing to lose, so when management come to them with, how much to fly C-series, the answer will be, "whatever it takes"
You guys are screwed!!!!!

[Squid]

funny, that’s not what my brother said. First 50 get date of hire. not the bottom. the pay matches where they are with encore pay and once you have your number you can go when ready. there was more around when the flow starts and if encore cant release you you will get the date of hire ahead of anyone off the street. don’t quite understand exactly how that works.

[Impact]

I don't have a problem with a flow through. 1 in 4 sounds reasonable, and IMO 1 in 2 once Encores training capacity spools up and can handle the workload.

DOH at mainline when initially hired at Encore, I have an issue with.

[pacman007]

DOH for the first 50 sounds reasonable, most of this guys will have 4-5000 hrs and are definitely qualified to fly mainline.

[Mig29]

where exactly do you flow through:

-when mainline is not expanding as fast as it used to
-when WJ may actually shrink as it offloads some routes to Encore (unless it gets bigger equipment)
-when there are many capts in their mid 30s (25 years or so before they retire)
-when lot of them won't retire at 65 since the new "no mandatory retirement law" is in effect.
-there is only so many routes in Canada and US you can fly at a profit in a over saturated market

Just some points that I can think of .....but what do I know, things may completely improve in a year or so.

[Transonic]

where exactly do you flow through:

-when mainline is not expanding as fast as it used to
-when WJ may actually shrink as it offloads some routes to Encore (unless it gets bigger equipment)
-when there are many capts in their mid 30s (25 years or so before they retire)
-when lot of them won't retire at 65 since the new "no mandatory retirement law" is in effect.
-there is only so many routes in Canada and US you can fly at a profit in a over saturated market

Just some points that I can think of .....but what do I know, things may completely improve in a year or so.

Here are some points from the opposite side of the coin. (The positive side)

1. Mainline, for now, continues to grow. Future 737 deliveries - 4 (2014), 9 (2015), 8(2016), 6(2017), 3(2018)
The question remains how many lease backs will be returned. Future expire leases - 3(2014), 12( 2015), 8(2016), 6(2017), 4(2018)
The latest word given for the 2014 lease returns was that some if not all aircraft may be returned. If all are returned in 2014, there is still positive growth at mainline, albeit small. WJ still intends to grow the 737 fleet.

2.The winter schedule is out and shows increased frequency to numerous 737 destinations thanks to Encore for freeing up the bigger iron. For example, 737s will now fly to all 4 Hawaiian airports daily from YVR as well as YYC direct MIA. Cannibalization is not occurring currently.

3. Don't be focused on the young faces, there are many baby boomer Captains who will be approaching retirement age soon. WJ is not immune to the demographic gaps that affect Canadian society.

4. Food for thought, the Number 1 WJ 737 Captain works the same type of schedule and number of days as the 1150th FO. In contrast, the top seniority pilots at AC work 9 days and have their pick of destinations and timings. It is much easier for a WJ Captain to justify retiring early than a AC Captain. The seniority system at AC has made the top jobs too sweet to leave.

5. Yes, hence why WestJet since 2006 expanded their flying to the US and Caribbean. There may not be more growth in the Canadian market, however there is still plenty of room to grow to more destinations in the US, Central America and Caribbean not to mention increase frequency to current destinations.

Now time for the exciting speculation, Wide Body fleet! Although maybe just dreams for now, most aviation analyst agree a wide body fleet will be the natural progression for WestJet. AC has 80% of the international market in Canada. The market is calling for a competitor.

Where do you want to be when WJ takes delivery of their first wide body? It's not a matter of if, but when.

[Rumors]

Does anyone have the details on how flow will work?

[Impact]

where exactly do you flow through:

-when mainline is not expanding as fast as it used to

To mainline of course. Can you ellaborate on exactly what "as fast as it used to" means?

-when WJ may actually shrink as it offloads some routes to Encore (unless it gets bigger equipment)

Ah yes, dealing with hypotheticals are we? "May actually shrink"? As a Jazz pilot, you of all people should know that feed from a tier 2 to a mainline actually increases business for the mainline.

-when there are many capts in their mid 30s (25 years or so before they retire)

And there are many Capts in their mid 40's, mid 50's, and a few in their 60's. If you're trying to make the case that the age demographic of Captains at WJ is extremely young, translating to very few upcoming retirements, I'd have to say that you are wrong. IMO, it's a fairly even spread.

-when lot of them won't retire at 65 since the new "no mandatory retirement law" is in effect.

Please define "lot". Dealing in hypotheticals again, are we?

-there is only so many routes in Canada and US you can fly at a profit in a over saturated market

That's interesting. The last time I checked, WJ was a profitable company, and recently posted a year over year increase in capacity of 11%.

So from what I can read from your comments, the only thing that you are trying to do is make it appear that flow is really not a valid and tangible bonus. Nice try.

[FICU]

-when WJ may actually shrink as it offloads some routes to Encore

Just spoke with a WJ driver who confirmed a reduction in Boeing flying. For how long is the question.

[anonymity]

DOH at mainline when initially hired at Encore, I have an issue with.

Impact, care to elaborate on this comment, on the surface it appears you would do better as an ACPA pilot as opposed to(assuming) WJPA pilot.

[Impact]

DOH at mainline when initially hired at Encore, I have an issue with.

Impact, care to elaborate on this comment, ....

Sure thing. I'm a realist when it comes to legal matters, so this goes a long way into explaining the relationship that a subsidary (and its emplyees) has with its parent corporation:


http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/20 ... c1790.html

To bring the argument closer to home for you, can you please tell us if there are any pilots at Jazz, who were hired in the time frame when Jazz was a wholly owned subsidiary of Air Canada, that were under the impression that their DOH at Jazz would equate to the same DOH at Air Canada, had they participated in a flow-through?

[av8ts]

I hope by looking at the history of the AC and Jazz pilots that WJ has learned how not to do it

[Joe Blow Schmo]

The problem is that right now most of the Westjet pilots won't have a problem with it because it doesn't affect them. All the Encore pilots are below them on the seniority list even with DOH. Jump forward 5 or 10 years when Westjet has now hired hundreds of direct hires who find themselves junior to hundreds of Encore pilots. They won't be so eager to support the flow rules.

And before anybody says it, yes I know that they knew the rules when they signed up for WJ and they should live by them, but they won't be the first, or the last group of pilots to try to have the rules changed after the fact.

Whichever way it ends up, in a few years the pilot groups are going to be at each other's throats. Either because the new WJ pilots are upset that the Encore pilots have a seniority number ahead of them or because the long serving Encore pilot is upset that the new hire WJ pilot is ahead of him. Either way it's a win for the company. Nothing like an unhealthy competition between pilot groups to keep costs down.

[Rumors]

I disagree. Date of Hire is Date of Hire.

Can't really complain if someone is ahead of you on the list based on the fact they work at a subsidiary. They were on the property before you plain and simple.

Subsidiaries are set up to satisfy the bean counters and to delusion us into thinking lower wages are acceptable by using terms like "industry standard practice".

Yes it's to bad more experienced pilots who are presently earning hire wages won't take the hit to come sit right seat at Encore but the pilots eventually hired in those positions will still poses the same qualifications(maybe not experience) level as the ones holding out for the 737 positions.

It's my opinion that anything less then date of hire will have an impact on culture.

That being said WestJet does a great job in managing their culture.

[pacman007]

i guess a good compromise would be to get your DOH for mainline as soon as you make the left seat at Encore.

[flyer 1492]

I hope by looking at the history of the AC and Jazz pilots that WJ has learned how not to do it

WestJet management has learned from the best. It goes all the way back to Canadian and Air Canada days when the management at the time played one group against the other to keep wages low. Wj and Encore management are setting the stage so that in the coming years both employee groups will be each others throats over routes, aircraft types (scope) and wages. History will always repeat it's self.

Flyer

[flyer 1492]

i guess a good compromise would be to get your DOH for mainline as soon as you make the left seat at Encore.

This won't work either. All you will have is the pilots at Encore fighting each other. It's one thing saying that you are part of the whole (thanks for the profit share), but we will still consider you second cousins.

Flyer

[Mig29]

So from what I can read from your comments, the only thing that you are trying to do is make it appear that flow is really not a valid and tangible bonus. Nice try.

Who said it's not a possibility? I'm just pointing out few things that may make that flow more difficult then it appears. You brought some other positive pointers, and that's okay too. If I was going to Encore I would look at both sides before committing to a job there.

I think flow is a good thing just so we are clear here Jazz and AC did it for years...

[rudder]

I think flow is a good thing just so we are clear here Jazz and AC did it for years...

Jazz and AC did not demand indentured servitude as a condition of flow.

[DH772]

Yes it's to bad more experienced pilots who are presently earning hire wages won't take the hit to come sit right seat at Encore but the pilots eventually hired in those positions will still poses the same qualifications(maybe not experience) level as the ones holding out for the 737 positions.

Nope. I don't agree with you. Wait till the company matures, Encore will eventually be hiring guys with 1500 hours or less. I'm sure the guy who works at a 704 company building his time and experience and pay to support is family will be thrilled the day he goes to WJ only to find out tons of Encore pilots will be senior to him. The already possibly slow advancement from FO to captain will become a near standstill as others surpass them. Like someone said, the flow is a non issue at WJ right now because it effects no WJ pilot.
Side note, that's just my opinion and I don't believe flow will be DOH for everyone. Wouldn't make any sense. I can see the first 50 but thats about it.

Quite amusing watching WJ/Encore blindly live through issues already dealt with in Canada. Want to see future issues you're going to have to deal with?? Just look next door...

[Rumors]

Yes it's to bad more experienced pilots who are presently earning hire wages won't take the hit to come sit right seat at Encore but the pilots eventually hired in those positions will still poses the same qualifications(maybe not experience) level as the ones holding out for the 737 positions.

Nope. I don't agree with you. Wait till the company matures, Encore will eventually be hiring guys with 1500 hours or less. I'm sure the guy who works at a 704 company building his time and experience and pay to support is family will be thrilled the day he goes to WJ only to find out tons of Encore pilots will be senior to him. The already possibly slow advancement from FO to captain will become a near standstill as others surpass them. Like someone said, the flow is a non issue at WJ right now because it effects no WJ pilot.
Side note, that's just my opinion and I don't believe flow will be DOH for everyone. Wouldn't make any sense. I can see the first 50 but thats about it.

Quite amusing watching WJ/Encore blindly live through issues already dealt with in Canada. Want to see future issues you're going to have to deal with?? Just look next door...

I disagree.

This is where the hole separate company us against them debate gets played.

Air Canada has hired many pilots with less then 1500 hours do they forfeit seniority to the more experienced pilots coming through the door?

Like I said Date of Hire is Date of Hire. A person qualified to sit right seat Dash 8 is just as qualified to sit right seat Boeing 737.

Are Rouge pilots separate from Air Canada pilots?

Is Encore really a new airline?

Is it a separate company?

Do the employees have the same rights and privileges as WestJet employees?

At the end of the day this is just a smoke and mirrors show on how to effectively add a new aircraft type to an already successful airline and save a buck doing it.

Just my opinion but the WJPA should treat every new Dash 8 pilot as they would any 737 pilot and that means Date of Hire. They are already making the sacrifice of working more for less then their peers.

[bearinmind]

A mystery wrapped up in an enigma

flo.jpg (4.75 KiB) Viewed 5425 times

[DH772]

Ughh I don't even understand what point you're trying to argue anymore.

Air Canada has hired many pilots with less then 1500 hours do they forfeit seniority to the more experienced pilots coming through the door?

Many pilots hired less then 1500 hours? What in gods name of a company are you talking about? I know very few people who are hired with less than 1500 hours at mainline. Definitely false information.

Like I said Date of Hire is Date of Hire. A person qualified to sit right seat Dash 8 is just as qualified to sit right seat Boeing 737.

Qualified is qualified, you are correct. But you won't see a 1000 hours pilot sit in the seat of a WJ 737. A WJ 737 pilot has put in their time and effort to build the required experience they need to make it there.

Are Rouge pilots separate from Air Canada pilots?

What does Rouge/AC have anything to do with this debate? All the pilots are on the exact same list. Rouge isn't taking less experienced drivers.

Do the employees have the same rights and privileges as WestJet employees?

No they don't. Hence why I said it's funny watching WJ make the same mistakes. Aka creating the 2nd class division to its company.

At the end of the day this is just a smoke and mirrors show on how to effectively add a new aircraft type to an already successful airline and save a buck doing it.

Just my opinion but the WJPA should treat every new Dash 8 pilot as they would any 737 pilot and that means Date of Hire. They are already making the sacrifice of working more for less then their peers.

EXACTLY!! I completely agree with that comment. However, that is not the reality of everyone's opinion. My whole point in this debate (and im not saying DOH is fair or not fair), im just saying its still going to create a shit storm.

Few years ago, Jazz had a flow to AC. Frozen at jazz for min 2 years. At which point you can take half of your seniority and pay to mainline up to max 8 years. Sounds like a great deal no? Why should a 1500 hour Jazz pilot not have higher seniority then the guy who worked a 704 captain job to get PIC time to get direct AC, right??

Well It creates issues from both sides. From regional side you are going to get guys who completely whole heartily agree with the flow system because it benefits them but also creates arrogant pilots with a sense of entitlement once they finally are called to the big leagues. On the flip side you get your higher experienced pilots going directly to the big leagues and then fighting tooth and nail to get rid of the flow system because their seniority is stagnant as pilots keeping jumping ahead of them.