Being a luddite

[Beefitarian]

Nostalgia is very important here in this discussion.

I love listening to The Knack. There is a certain argument for the tone of an analog source. The guitar and amplifier was after all analog so the CD being digital actually is limited to the amount of the original recorded sound it can contain.

Yet in a lot of ways it is easy to forget and not realize I don't miss the hiss of a cassette tape or vinyl 45 record. The mono players and AM radios I had even as a teenager sucked but that is not the part I remember.

[radubc]

I think more people should take the time to question things that are new and seek out their flaws, we can't all just blindly bow to the newest "app" or "gizmo" and follow the herd off the cliff.

That's exactly the healthy attitude towards new stuff. Use it, cirticize the hell out of it, give your input to the creators. And it is totally opposite to: "leave me alone with that crap" and "I don't care for shiny new things. I like the old ones./ The old stuff is best."

Of course, there will be a time in our life when we will not be able to keep up. This should be accepted as being normal, just like aging and death. However, this doesn't automatically mean that new is bad.

[Beefitarian]

It's not all my inability to keep up. The colonel had a real great example regarding digital log books. He has in his possession, his grandfather's from WW I.

I'm horrible at keeping a physical hand written one. There's a few pages I am embarrassed by. Nearly illegible hand writing if you can even call it that, correction fluid, single line strokes, etc. but in a hundred years it might look funny, yet someone will be able to read and interpret it.

My dad's digital family tree on floppy disk? Probably not. There is a lot of sort of great technology that is all ready extinct from only a decade or so ago.

[iflyforpie]

So, let's see. You, people, just love FLYING. You do it in small AIRPLANES, with or without an ELECTRICAL SYSTEM, but usually using a RADIO. You like to do this using MAPS and NAVIGATION TECHNIQUES, or black and white GPSs. Don't forget that the things written in caps were once new technologies, same things you now dismiss and of which you make fun. Moreover, they were made possible by people with attitudes exactly opposite from yours. What does this tell you?

Well...... there are times I don't want to use any of those technologies.

The problem with things like radio and GPS and even electrical systems is they can detract from what I want to do...... fly. Even maps and navigation techniques..... I love throwing the map down because I know exactly where I am and I no longer need it for the flight (sure there is pilotage, but it has existed in other forms before recorded history).

There are times that I don't even want to fly. If it means going into terminal airspace or waiting in line for takeoff..... count me out. A grass field and a nordo taildragger or a (formerly ) quiet lake with a small floatplane are my idea of heaven.....

So that's where the argument lies.... with me anyways. When it is more about the gadgetry than it is about actually doing what the gadgetry allows you to do. Or when the gadgetry gets in the way of the primary thing you are supposed to be doing.

I got into flying because I love the freedom, the sensations, and the view out the window. A G1000 or every chart from here to Tierra del Fuego on my tablet doesn't really fit with my flying a VFR light aircraft relatively short distances.

As for cameras, most of my shots this summer were on 35mm Velvia 50 Colour Reversal and 120 Ilford Delta 400 B&W.

[radubc]

If you enjoy flying over and over in the same area, I'm perfectly OK with it. But if you say that this is the only good way to fly because you do it, then I have a problem. If you go further and make fun of people who want to go where they have never gone before ... well, you see my point.

[Beefitarian]

Another excellent point. We all want to be the individuals we are. Then we enjoy telling everyone else, "You should be like me and try it this way. It's awesome!"

[Shiny Side Up]

So, let's see. You, people, just love FLYING. You do it in small AIRPLANES, with or without an ELECTRICAL SYSTEM, but usually using a RADIO. You like to do this using MAPS and NAVIGATION TECHNIQUES, or black and white GPSs. Don't forget that the things written in caps were once new technologies, same things you now dismiss and of which you make fun. Moreover, they were made possible by people with attitudes exactly opposite from yours. What does this tell you?

Sort of missed the main point of my irritation, let me illustrate better.

For example. A few days ago I happened to be on the ramp screwing around with one of the airplanes I fly, I think I was unloading some stuff and a fellow comes trotting over. After the customary greetings, as typically happens at aerodromes, he's "do you mind if I take a look inside and check it out?" and being cursed (as was pointed out the otherday) with the "nice" gene, I was "sure, be my guest". So he's looking around inside. Here's what he sees:



(note: one will notice I make frequent use of digital camera technology, but the first person who critisizes my camera is going to get beaten with his own shoes. F@ck you, this one works fine)

I hear the first clucking sounds of disapproval. "Oh, it still has the old EDM?", "Is that a mechanical HSI?" "Still working with the old 430s?" you get the picture. I then get a lay out of all the things, these things could be replaced with, why they're better. It then proceeds into how an old aluminum airframe is so inefficient. The risks I must be taking with this thing. I do a lot of smiling and shrugging, its no point in arguing with guys like this. I just wonder why they feel the need to apparently sully themselves by even comming close to such a thing, something to do with a need to demonstrate some sort of primate superiority, whatever.

It bugs me though that there's a lot of pilots like this.

First, there's somethng irksome about when you let someone touch your toys they then proceed to run them down. If that's all you want to do, then piss off.

Secondly, and somewhat more bothersome is the assumption that I don't know that there's newer stuff. That I, using a piece of old machinery, aren't aware that there's something newer. That I'm somehow stuck in some anachronistic time warp operating under the assumption that I have the latest and greatest, and your intervention shatters my world. Like I don't know that new planes are equipped with glass panels and other goodies.

Lastly, and the point that most makes me most want to turn to some good old primitive violence to resolve, is the insinuation that I am operating unsafely because I am not making use of the bleeding edge of what's new. The idea that now that there is foreflight, that if I don't now use it for every flight I do that I'm unsafe. That now that there's a new touchscreen garmin out, that if I use the old one where you still have to push buttons, clearly that's going to lead to my demise. That's the real thing that pisses me off.

So just so you know, the next time you decide to give a sales pitch for your new toy, choose your words carefully.

[Beefitarian]

Good post. That reminds me, the kids go back to school next week so if I can find the funds, we should go for lunch.

[tiggermoth]

If you enjoy flying over and over in the same area, I'm perfectly OK with it. But if you say that this is the only good way to fly because you do it, then I have a problem. If you go further and make fun of people who want to go where they have never gone before ... well, you see my point.

I see your point...you are complaining about people making fun of you because you want to 'go somewhere new', never been before. Go back and re-read all your posts. You my friend are the one 'making fun' of those who just want to go fly without all the stupid gadgets, and simply enjoy the flight.

Let me point something else out to you. You have made a clear insinutaion that you 'need' all these gizmos in order to travel to new areas and airports beyond the classic 'local' flight. The bolded part in the quote above makes it obvious that is your attitude. Well, here's the thing.....folks have been flying and travelling to places they have never been before for MANY, MANY years with a clock, compass, and a map. One does not need all of this crap just to go somewhere new.

A few years ago I went to go somewhere new in my good ole' C172. Now, my airplane is an old 1957 model with an airpeed, altitude, compass, and a really old venturi driven directional gyro, and even older artificial horizon (my horizon is one of the really old ones that only has a black face with a white line indicating level), and all it has for navigation is an ADF that only works when the weather is good and you hold your tongue the right way. So, I climb into my good old airplane and away we go. Map on my lap, and set heading as per the compass. (Neat thing with venturi driven gyrons, you can not set them on the ground using runway heading, you gotta be flying to get enough airflow through the venturi to get them to work....so you gotta set your heading the old way....with a COMPASS). Once on heading, the gyros have spooled up enough to finally set the DG. Anyhow, away we go....never ever been to this airport before so I've got my CFS handy too. I realize shortly after takeoff that my GPS is in my flight bag in the baggage compartment. What do I do?? Panic, turn around and land so I can get it out?? Heck no, I'm on heading, I've got plenty of landmarks below, and I've got my mickey mouse watch to keep track of time so I know when I'm going to arrive. After a beautiful flight I arrive at the airport I've never been to before and land. No problem, flew directly to the place, wasn't even off by a degree on heading. Oh, and guess what, it was a 3.5 hour flight. A long ways from home. All without any sort of electronic gizmo to tell me the way, or how to fly, or calulate my times. I gotta say, it was a hell of a lot of fun!!

The electronic stuff can be very helpful yes, and a great tool....if used correctly. But way too many pilots are relying on this stuff to the point where they are barely looking out the window the entire flight. Many of them are getting to the point where they rely on this stuff so much that if it fails, they are screwed. Case in point:

I am an aircraft maintenace engineer for my day job. I worked for a charter airline a few years back. We had a King Air 100 leave Edmonton heading for Fort Nelson BC. They got part way and their GPS died. These two pilots flying a very well equipped King Air, could not figure out how to find Fort Nelson on a CAVU day without their GPS. The diverted to our base because it was close to them and they needed the GPS fixed before the could carry on. Keep in mind, these are two commercial, IFR pilots, flying a KA100 with dual navs, dual ADF's, all the bells and whistles.....yet they could not find their way without GPS!!!!

So, as awesome as a tool that all the gizmos can be, that is all they are, a tool. They do not fly the airplane for you, you do that. They are not a 'requirement' for flight, nor are they a 'requirement' to visit new places as you suggest. They are simply a tool to assist. Unfortunately way too many guys use them as a toy and do nothing but play with them the whole flight and forget basic stuff such as watching for other traffic, watching landmarks...etc. Some get to rely on them too much and one day their tool fails....they have no backup...now who is the 'dangerous' one?

[radubc]

@Shiny, what you are saying in your last post is a completely different thing, and I totally agree with you. The main difference is that you have now introduced a cost benefit component. In your case, it is simply not worth the effort of upgrading to the latest technology for each and every instrument you mentioned. This effort would include, money, down time, learning the new stuff, risk of it not being accepted by everybody (see HD DVD vs Blu-ray), unavailabilty ( I think you can't have a G1000 installed on an old aircraft) etc.

In your case, your guest's analysis was wrong, not the new technology.

[akoch]

Now we have a dual GNS430 and EDM luditte!

Seriously, don't bother with the kind of guy you met. It is not worth your time. And I have not seen many of the type you described though. But I do notice that the pilots are an opinionated lot. But there is an awful lot of really nice guys as well.

[radubc]

@tigermoth, I see your point. New is crap. OK. Now, one question. You said that your GPS was in your luggage compartment. Why did you bother to buy a GPS?

I'll try to make my point more clear. New technolgy is good. It enabled you to fly in the first place. Refusing the idea of new technology is against progress and it is overall a bad thing.

[Shiny Side Up]

Of course there's nothing wrong with the new technology, what's wrong is people's attitudes. If someone is doing something the old way, why do people feel the need to tell them to do it otherwise? It never happens the other way around - at least not in my experience, possibly on the internets, but never in person like it does on a daily basis when I'm in the real world, with real airplanes. An no one ever comes over and tsk, tsks about how I don't have a venturi type suction gyro or something, or that I ain't drawing lines on a map to go somewhere.

I should say that paper maps really seem to draw the ire of these types - a personal pet peeve since I'm sort of a map collector, as well as a book collector. Again, here we are, I was thunbing through a manual the other day, minding my business, and someone rushes over with his iPad and demands why I don't have a pdf of that instead. Speaks to me like I was going to endanger everyone around with a gruesome papercut accident and that if I took it with me in the plane I was clearly someone who wasn't concerned with weight and balance and therefore a dangerous menace to aviation.

Shrug and smile.

Can't they just enjoy their iPad in peace?

I'm going to get a shirt made that reads "I ALREADY KNOW ABOUT FOREFLIGHT" might save me some time and trouble.

[Shiny Side Up]

Now we have a dual GNS430 and EDM luditte!

I know! Did you check out the strikefinder? Neat stuff, but its only got a monochrome display...

[radubc]

If someone is doing something the old way, why do people feel the need to tell them to do it otherwise? ...

I'm going to get a shirt made that reads "I ALREADY KNOW ABOUT FOREFLIGHT" might save me some time and trouble.

Maybe people are trying to help by showing you what they think is a better way. They might be wrong, but their intention is good. So, that shirt idea looks really nice.

[akoch]

Now we have a dual GNS430 and EDM luditte!

I know! Did you check out the strikefinder? Neat stuff, but its only got a monochrome display...

I think you're complete screwed! And it won't even overlay on your HSI! Nothing short of complete instrumentation on an HUD will cut it these days. I'm sure that guy had it, plus ForeFlight!

[tiggermoth]

@tigermoth, I see your point. New is crap. OK. Now, one question. You said that your GPS was in your luggage compartment. Why did you bother to buy a GPS?

I'll try to make my point more clear. New technolgy is good. It enabled you to fly in the first place. Refusing the idea of new technology is against progress and it is overall a bad thing.

Nowhere did I say new is crap. In fact....from my last post.....

The electronic stuff can be very helpful yes, and a great tool....if used correctly

You totally missed my point...even though I said plain and clear a couple times. My point was that this stuff is not a requirement for navigation the way you insinuated a while back. My point was that all these new gadgets may be handy tools....if used correctly. I pointed out how guys have gotten so reliant on them that they have no backup plan if the new stuff fails. They get so engrossed in their toys in the cockpit that they forget to look outside. This is dangerous. Use the tools all you want....just use them correctly for the tool they are.

You said that your GPS was in your luggage compartment. Why did you bother to buy a GPS?

Umm, if you re-read my post you will see that I said I just forgot to take it out of my flight bag. Normally I do use it (see, I am not against the fancy tools, my gps is even a moving map one...no color screen though)....but I also always have my map on my lap, my times recorded, and the good ole' compass on the heading required. I use my GPS as a backup to my map reading and compass, not the other way around. This way, if the GPS fails or I forget it, I am not lost. And this way I am also looking out the window so I will stand a better chance of seeing other traffic.

See, I am not against all this new stuff, I truly do think it is nice stuff, but guys need to use them properly.

And I am totally with Shiny, someone comes and tells me that I need to upgrade, or tells me I can't do this or that without the gadgets...I get a little upset.

Edit: I fly for the fun of flight, the pure enjoyment of being up in the sky having a birds eye view of the scenery. I have plenty of fancy new gadgets to play with on the ground (computers, iPhone, etc). I spend plenty of time playing with these things, but when I go flying, I am flying for the pure enjoyment. If I am going cross country, same thing. I am doing it for the fun, the speed, and to see new things. Sure I do have the elctronic helpers, and use them....but I dont rely on them. I dont plan my life and flights around them. If a new one comes out I don't run straight to the store and buy it. When my old one breaks, then I will get a new one.

[Shiny Side Up]

Maybe people are trying to help by showing you what they think is a better way. They might be wrong, but their intention is good.

Not likely.

[CpnCrunch]

For example. A few days ago I happened to be on the ramp screwing around with one of the airplanes I fly, I think I was unloading some stuff and a fellow comes trotting over. After the customary greetings, as typically happens at aerodromes, he's "do you mind if I take a look inside and check it out?" and being cursed (as was pointed out the otherday) with the "nice" gene, I was "sure, be my guest". So he's looking around inside. Here's what he sees:

When I look at your pic I just notice how nice, clean and "new" the interior and panel looks compared to anything I have ever flown

[Shiny Side Up]

I think you're complete screwed! And it won't even overlay on your HSI! Nothing short of complete instrumentation on an HUD will cut it these days. I'm sure that guy had it, plus ForeFlight!

Well yeah, Here I've been labouring all this time under this backwards system like some Monty Python peasant in the muck when I should have known that the HSI and the finder could both be replaced by a new aspen digital display, and that's only if I could get someone to spend a little money. Clearly I've been in the dark about the newest tech, an accident waiting to happen. How I've survived this long must just be by pure luck.

[akoch]

When I look at your pic I just notice how nice, clean and "new" the interior and panel looks compared to anything I have ever flown

Yes, but the fingerprints on the glass still need to go. Blasphemy.

[FenderManDan]

I hear the first clucking sounds of disapproval. "Oh, it still has the old EDM?", "Is that a mechanical HSI?" "Still working with the old 430s?" you get the picture. I then get a lay out of all the things, these things could be replaced with, why they're better. It then proceeds into how an old aluminum airframe is so inefficient. The risks I must be taking with this thing. I do a lot of smiling and shrugging, its no point in arguing with guys like this. I just wonder why they feel the need to apparently sully themselves by even comming close to such a thing, something to do with a need to demonstrate some sort of primate superiority, whatever.

It bugs me though that there's a lot of pilots like this.
.....

Yeah I had a guy put a brand new bluetooth - ADS-B device under my nose and start telling me that I am not flying safely without it and the backup AI. This is all after I told him that I fly oldish C172 in VFR only. Majority of pilots are not like that, fortunately.

[radubc]

Tiggermoth, I've never said that you can't fly without the new technology. At some point, somebody said that he likes to fly short distances without a map, and my answer was that other people might want to fly somewhere else. The idea was that maps and gps are good.

[Shiny Side Up]

Majority of pilots are not like that, fortunately.

Fortunately, but I think its why foreflight draws so much of my ire (despite being a really useful tool) is it seems it encourages everyone who's got an iPad to come out of the woodwork and suddenly they know everything about flying. I suspect that I'm conspicious being that I don't have one surgically attached to me, that therefore I must not be using it in every aspect that I do that has to do with flying airplanes. The assumption being that I'm inherently and ignorantly unsafe, thus a problem to their personal flight safety and warranting of their attention.

[akoch]

After so much publicity I just downloaded the ForeFlight to check it out. Have to say it is pretty cool! Even gets me real-time gas prices