Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-2014

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rudder
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by rudder »

gonnabeapilot wrote:I must say, I'm very disappointed that winter wet-leases are the direction that things appear to be taking when it comes to legislating a method for European pilots to work here over the winter. I've always been a vocal supporter of 1:1 reciprocity, however the traditional method that has been used by Sunwing was the one that benefited Canadian pilots the most. (This is, of course, ignoring the legal mumbo jumbo about how pilots were being counted and the ridiculous lop-sidedness the program has taken over the last few years). Traditionally Canadian pilots at Sunwing working in Europe would go over under wet-lease contracts. It meant that the crews were not required to go through any form of training or license validation, it preserved Sunwing's working terms and conditions and it preserved the seniority system established at the airline. In the winter, European pilots would come to Sunwing and fly mixed-crew on C-Reg Aircraft. This meant that for the Canadian pilots working at Sunwing, their quality of life improved greatly during the winter months. The Europeans went to the bottom of the seniority list (and by doing so, tended to get the worst of the flying and improved every Canadian pilot's shot at getting days off, vacation, etc...) the variety of flying increased as all pilots were able to bid on all flying and the number of bases available for Canadian pilots to bid into increased which allowed Canadian guys from outside of Toronto and Montreal to live in their homes for the winter instead of commuting. It was the perfect scenario and with some modifications to legislation, it would have been easy to employ a 1:1 reciprocity program while keeping this structure.

These days people seem to prefer a wet-lease for wet-lease exchange program. (I'm guessing simply because it involves the least number of changes to existing legislation). But by doing so, the quality of life for Canadians employed by Sunwing will be worse off. Since the wet-lease aircraft can only be crewed by the Foreign pilots that come over with them, it limits the flying available to the Canadians. It also means that certain bases will exclusively be foreign Reg. aircraft with foreign crews, eliminating opportunities for Canadian pilots to live in their homes during the winter months.

It is great to see the that the numbers are starting to even out and that the hiring of Canadian pilots will continue. But now is an important phase in the evolution of this program. For those that have always claimed that they only want what's best for Canadian pilots, I would encourage them to do their due diligence when they advocate for one solution over another, because the decisions they influence will have a very real and lasting impact on the lives of the hundreds of Canadian pilots employed at Sunwing now and well into the future.

*As a bit of a side note from the above rant, it sounds like a big chunk of the Canadian seasonal pilots who have been hired for this winter season will be Jazz pilots on a seasonal leave of absence. There are rumours that, if successful this winter, the program will be formalized a bit more moving forward. I think that this would be great to see and I really hope that both companies can come up with a solution that benefits both of them.
I disagree. The probable net result once TFWP/FLVC is wound down to zero and proportional wet-lease is the norm will be a much longer SW permanent pilot seniority list with associated upgrades. Year round employment goes up as SW will be looking at a much larger permanent CDN staffed C-reg fleet. Given that TUI directly manages and controls a majority of the SW winter fleet and has a vested interest in maintaining the volume of flying being performed in Canada via the SW brand, I suspect that TUI will proactive in adapting to the new rules. It seems that the government is planning an implementation timeframe to allow TUI/SW to adapt. The alternative will be to seasonally charter CDN carriers (CanJet?) to cover some of the winter lift but that does nothing to solve the TUI dilemma of redeploying surplus B737 airframes in the winter season. The only logical solution is subleasing aircraft to SW as year round C-reg. This will however adversely affect the European pilot staffing levels but the pendulum always swings as far backwards as it swings forwards.

The SW pilots benefit as organic growth and expansion is the result and nobody is trying to use policy or legislation to put SW out of business. Level playing field that's all. This is not bad news for SW. Status quo has allowed SW to establish a significant share of the leisure travel market in Canada. Adapt to the new rules and and continue to thrive.
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ea306
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by ea306 »

I agree with Gonnabeapilot.

The most up junior new hire FO and most recently upgrade Captains have enjoyed a better schedule and benefits of seniority with the foreign pilots taking up the roster behind them. Effectively providing junior Sunwing Pilots the benefits of seniority that will be lost to them by wet leases.

The impact of the personal lifestyle of our Canadian pilots will be very real... He has a very valid point.
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rudder
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by rudder »

ea306 wrote:I agree with Gonnabeapilot.

The most up junior new hire FO and most recently upgrade Captains have enjoyed a better schedule and benefits of seniority with the foreign pilots taking up the roster behind them. Effectively providing junior Sunwing Pilots the benefits of seniority that will be lost to them by wet leases.

The impact of the personal lifestyle of our Canadian pilots will be very real... He has a very valid point.
Can I try some different math?

The current most junior permanent SW FO could eventually end up with as many as 100 more permanent seniority list pilots behind clearly improving relative seniority.

The current most junior SW CA could eventually end up with as many as 50 more CA behind clearly improving relative seniority.

How do these improvements not offer equivalent benefits vs status quo with 120 foreign pilots on TFWP/FLVC?

Looks like a good news outcome to me for SW pilots and not so much for European pilots. Unless TUI opts for CDN wet leases to partially cover winter season flying there will need to be a significant expansion in the SW Pilot and Captain lists.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by anonymity »

I hate having to point out the obvious, however if your employer was not abusing the programs, you would not even know what relative seniority was. So while you enjoyed a better lifestyle at the expense of other pilots, things will go back to how they should have been.
I guess though, it's all about you!
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whipline
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by whipline »

Gonnabeapilot is absolutely correct. Rudder all things being equal the quality of life will diminish for the bottom part of both the Captain and first officer lists. If we bring over 100 pilots under wet leases as opposed to FLVC'S, the number of foreign pilots stays the same.

As for the Jazz thing I to think its a great idea, one I've brought up to several of my Jazz friends including pilots on your MEC. Hope it works.
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rudder
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by rudder »

whipline wrote:Gonnabeapilot is absolutely correct. Rudder all things being equal the quality of life will diminish for the bottom part of both the Captain and first officer lists. If we bring over 100 pilots under wet leases as opposed to FLVC'S, the number of foreign pilots stays the same.
Ok, let me try to understand.

In the fall of 2012, SW had a permanent list of approximately 150 pilots and added 20 seasonal FO's. These 170 pilots were supplemented by foreign pilots to staff 29 aircraft for the 2012-2013 winter season. In the spring of 2013, SW converted the 20 seasonal pilots to permanent and then added another 30 permanent pilots to bring the permanent SW list up to just over 200 pilots. This was enough pilots to meet the wet lease staffing obligations of 7 aircraft deployed overseas and an additional 6 aircraft in North America.

For winter 2013-2014 SW is planning on approximately 32 aircraft. SW is adding approximately 40 seasonal pilots bringing the SW component to approximately 240 pilots. This seems to be a staffing formula that sees SW responsible to fully staff about 16 aircraft through the winter season. SW will once again supplement the remaining positions using foreign pilots under TFWP/FLVC and wet leases. Best guess is this represents about another 240 pilots considering the high daily utilization rates.

Any arrangement that sees SW compelled to staff incremental airframes using CDN pilots is a good thing isn't it? The SW list will grow beyond 240 and everybody on that list moves up. And unless SW has plans to increase the winter fleet beyond 32 airframes, then each additional CDN pilot added will mean one less foreign pilot will be required.

If TFWP/FLVC staffing eventually reaches zero due to gov't edict and reciprocal proportional wet lease is the only way to get foreign pilots in Canada then one could reasonably calculate that SW will have a permanent fleet of approximately 16-20 aircraft (up from 13) and that the reciprocal wet lease component will be on the order of 12-16 aircraft. The ultimate balance will be determined by commercial requirements, regulatory limitations, and the combination that makes the best economic sense for TUI considering that it is the principal lessee of the majority of the SW peak fleet.

As much as some would prefer status quo, the gov't press release on Friday has made it clear that status quo is no longer an option. You are correct - the pool of flying open for bidding by SW pilots in the winter will shrink. But the volume of flying overseas in summer could grow significantly. Quid pro quo?

I am very curious what comment will flow from TUI/SW in response. The only potential plot twist is that I am also sure that CanJet is looking to see if there is an opportunity for them with SW to fill in the gaping hole that will be left in their own operation after the Transat contract expires in June 2014. Once again, TUI has a bigger picture to consider before making decisions about where to buy the lift.

Summer 2014 at SW should be interesting. I am hoping that SW does eventually evolve to a permanent fleet of 20+ aircraft and that as a result there will be more upgrade opportunities than would be possible under status quo.
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

@Whipline, EA306 and gonnabeapilot;

What I get from your last posts is that you'd rather still like to see more temp foreign pilots working for SW as it would give you better relative seniority than a scheme that would give more jobs to fellow Canadian pilots because your schedules and base assignment would suffer from it? Is that it?

Please enlighten me!
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Last edited by Jean-Luc Monette on Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
whipline
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by whipline »

Rudder and Jean. Whatever the number of pilots coming over from Europe is irrelevant. How many pilots Sunwing has hired is irrelevent. What we are saying is we'd like to have the foriegners do our training and go to the back of our seniority lists for the time they spend here. When they are on wet leases, they are still flying for us but under their OC and work rules and seniority list.

What gonnabeapilot stated is correct. Foreign pilots are going to be working for us, whatever the number. We'd like to have them at the back of our list rather then wet leases. Better quality of life for whoever is at the back of our lists. This is not about the amount of pilots Sunwing brings over. I can't Dr Seuss this any further.

Whimpline? Really? You want to go there?
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

Not my style... typo corrected.

You'll have to explain what "Dr. Seuss this" means, though... I don't get that reference. Sorry!
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rudder
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by rudder »

whipline wrote:Rudder and Jean. Whatever the number of pilots coming over from Europe is irrelevant. How many pilots Sunwing has hired is irrelevent. What we are saying is we'd like to have the foriegners do our training and go to the back of our seniority lists for the time they spend here. When they are on wet leases, they are still flying for us but under their OC and work rules and seniority list.

What gonnabeapilot stated is correct. Foreign pilots are going to be working for us, whatever the number. We'd like to have them at the back of our list rather then wet leases. Better quality of life for whoever is at the back of our lists. This is not about the amount of pilots Sunwing brings over. I can't Dr Seuss this any further.
I understand that you have been able to create a 'virtual seniority list' each winter of approximately 300 pilots by adding some of the foreign pilots to your rosters. But any way that you look at it, 300 permanent year round CDN pilot jobs is better than 300 hybrid pilot jobs each winter. That is 40+ upgrades and 90+ permanent pilots greater than right now. Whatever triggers that change is a good thing, isn't it?

And if SW elects to continue with the seasonal FO initiative to partially address the expanded winter fleet, it is entirely possible with the gov't tightening and eventually closing TFWP/FLVC loophole (which was also a tool for managing crew imbalances) that SW will also have to seasonally promote permanent FO's to seasonal Capt. Generally speaking, all I see is positives for current SW seniority list pilots although 65-75% of the much longer permanent seniority list will have to spend all or part of the summer season deployed in Europe on wet-lease. I foresee that this could partially be remedied in the future when SW adds its own widebodies for summer transatlantic ops :-P You do want CDN pilots flying them this time, don't you?

I can't Dr Seuss this any further either.
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whipline
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by whipline »

Now you got it Rudder. Of course hiring and upgrades are great. And yes more pilots are heading on deployments now. This year basically everyone went. If we're going to be taking foreign pilots in, all we're saying is we'd rather have them at the back our list. The Jazz pilots on course soon will understand this very shortly.

No problem Jean, I never proof read either.
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by gonnabeapilot »

Several people seem to have misconstrued my comments so in keeping with the Dr. Zeuss theme, I'll try to break them down and hopefully get my point across a bit better.

The Initial 'Big Picture' Problem: Several years ago, Sunwing started to get a little silly and created a huge imbalance in the number of European pilots coming to Canada in the winter versus the number of Canadian pilots who were working in Europe during the summer. People took notice. People didn't like it. Based on the majority of the comments that I've read on avcanada, people didn't mind that European pilots were working in Canada. They just wanted to see it as a 1:1 Reciprocity program.

The Realization: People who didn't like what Sunwing was doing started looking at the rules and regulations governing the various programs that Sunwing was using to bring in the Europeans. They came to the conclusion that what Sunwing was doing was illegal (based on their interpretation of the law) and that Sunwing was counting the number of pilots it was sending to Europe several times over in order to satisfy the requirements of the various programs.

The New Problem: Now people became much more focussed on the small stuff. The legal language... TFWP/FLVC programs versus wet-lease programs... CARs regulations... all that kind of stuff. The big picture problem - "Let's work towards getting 1:1 Reciprocity" took a back seat to "This is legal, this isn't, this is a loophole, this isn't".

The Potential Solution: As was mentioned in several posts here, it looks like the rules and regulations are being modified to allow for Sunwing to continue to bring in European pilots to help deal with the peak demand in the winter season. The key is that the focus is going to be placed back on the 1:1 Reciprocity. However based on the latest information, it looks like the method by which that will happen is by allowing a wet lease for wet lease swap program.

The Point of my Initial Post: Are we lawyers or pilots?? People seem to have forgotten that the big picture problem is the desire for 1:1 reciprocity in any European exchange program. Should anyone outside of Sunwing really care if the way that happens is through a TFWP/FLVC program or through a wet lease for wet lease swap program? If you are a Canadian pilot with no attachment, than no, you shouldn't. As long as the legal language is modified to make it black and white legal, that should be all that matters. Regardless of the 'how', you should just be happy that the 1:1 reciprocity is going to be enforced. This solves the big picture problem.

The post that I originally replied to made mention of how the poster figured the future would be 15 Sunwing Airplanes deploying to Europe and 15 airplanes worth or Europeans deploying to Canada each winter. This would be 1:1 reciprocity and require the hiring of more Canadian pilots to support the operation. This is a very good thing indeed. However, a large number of people on here seem to think that a wet lease for wet lease swap program is the way that this should happen. My point is that for any Canadian pilot who is, or hopes to be, employed by Sunwing, this is the worst possible scenario. What would be much better is the historical way of doing things where we send wet leases to Europe and the Europeans comes to Canada under the TFWP/FLVC program. For the quality of life of all Canadian pilots at Sunwing, this is the best solution. Would the impact of modifying the TFWP/FLVC legislation versus modifying the legislation around wet leases be any different to anyone employed outside of Sunwing? Not a bit... It would still be enforcing 1:1 reciprocity and the 'big picture problem' would still be resolved. Would the impact of modifying the TFWP/FLVC legislation versus modifying the legislation around wet leases have a huge impact for those employed at Sunwing?? Absolutely.

People here seem to have turned their attention towards hating on the TFWP/FLVC program more than a wet lease program because it's seen as being "more illegal" and therefore worthy of more shunning. But the wonderful thing with legislation is that it can be modified so that the spirit behind it can be honoured. The point behind my post is that the people who have been advocating tirelessly for 1:1 Reciprocity should not automatically dismiss changes to the TFWP/FLVC program just because it's the easiest program to hate. Take the time to talk to the people whose lives it will actually impact (after all, we should all want what's best for EVERY Canadian pilot, shouldn't we?) when advocating for solutions. The goal has always been 1:1. The black and white behind it that permits it to happen, shouldn't really matter to the majority as long as the law is followed. However to the (soon to be) 250 Canadian pilots working at Sunwing, it most certainly does!
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Travellingpilot
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by Travellingpilot »

Hi, I am sure BALPA will find these comments interesting when it comes to discuss these matters.
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by gonnabeapilot »

My understanding is BALPA is also supportive of the status quo. Thomson pilots coming to work in Canada under the TFWP/FLVC can't be forced to Canada. It's volunteer only. Therefore the status quo puts pressure on Thomson to increase the terms and conditions surrounding the Canadian deployments to meet their crewing requirements, to the benefit of BALPA members. If things change towards a wet-lease to wet-lease exchange program Thomson will be able to force its pilots to Canada, regardless of terms and conditions. This benefits Thomson the airline, but not so much the Thomson pilots who are being shipping to Ottawa in the middle of January to fill the need.
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ea306
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by ea306 »

Very well said Gonnabeapilot.

We should all be interested in the spirit of the law and what is best for Canadian pilots. In some respects we have been having a heated agreement .... Just disagreeing in other aspects on how to get there.

Jean: Have I ever said in any of my posts to read that I want to see MORE foreign pilots? I have never said that.

I am in favor of a balance over all....AND I am in favor of preserving life style for my Canadian Colleagues who presently fly for Sunwing as well as the Canadian pilots who will join us in the future.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Gonnabeapilot let me clarify a few things. I have always been for 1:1 reciprocity. I still am. I do not speak for ALPA but that is also their stated position.

This whole issue began when Sunwing, for several years in a row, used more foreign pilots in a calendar year then it employed Canadian pilots while at the same time attempting to claim that what is was doing was legitimate reciprocity (they claimed the imbalence allowed due to a backlog of imbalance in favor of Canadians over a period of several years)

No airline in any western country employs more foreigner pilots than locals and no western country would ever let such a scandalalous situation to occur to an airline within its borders. How Canada let itself stoop so low is beyond me. Those that expected Canadian pilots to accept such a situation to occur in Canada and just roll over are plain fools.

Sunwing hired several law firms who helped it exploit every law, regulation and loophole to achieve the imbalance that it was able to achieve in pilots. The reason we, the people who decided to tackle this anomaly, had to go through the regulations with a fine comb was to understand HOW Sunwing was doing what it was doing and attempt to discover if any rules were being violated or bent. And we found tons of them, the consequences of which have not all been felt yet. Now that the pendulum is finally swinging the other way, many are beginning to say that all of this should have never happened in the first place. But it did.

Had 1:1 reciprocity been respected from day one, none of us would be having this exchange and the new regulations and restrictions would not be necessary.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ea306
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by ea306 »

As I have stated from the beginning.
"Time will tell".
Balance needed to be found...and I still believe balance will be found.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Federal government puts cap on airline 'wet-leasing'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/fed ... -1.1442484
She also said the rules would not affect the amount of flights for Canadians hoping to travel on holiday.
That says a lot, doesn't it ?
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ea306
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by ea306 »

Says it all.

At least we are seeing significant increases in Canadian Pilot employment at Sunwing which should make most of us happy if the trend continues.
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florch
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-201

Post by florch »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Federal government puts cap on airline 'wet-leasing'

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/fed ... -1.1442484
She also said the rules would not affect the amount of flights for Canadians hoping to travel on holiday.
That says a lot, doesn't it ?

Does this mean the winter Wet lease base now just becomes Varadero and it carries on as per last year?
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