Pitts Down-pilot OK

[pelmet]

It strikes me that this is one of the last light aircraft types in which you would choose to have to do a forced landing. What is the glide speed anyways?

Occurrence No. : A13O0150 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT

Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:

Date : 08-08-2013 Time : 13:40 EDT

Region of Responsibility : ONTARIO

Location : INGLEWOOD, 1 NM E, ONTARIO

Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-GEWW Operator :

Manufacturer : PITTS Operator Type: PRIVATE

Model : S-1T CARs Info:

Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 1 None : 0 Unknown : 0

Occurrence Summary :

A13O0150: The privately operated Pitts S1S (C-GEWW) was returning to the Brampton Airport (CNC3) after a local aerobatic flight when the engine began to run roughly before quitting. The pilot performed a forced landing in a farm field. The aircraft came to rest in an inverted position and was substantially damaged. The pilot attended a hospital for a minor injury.

[xsbank]

HEDLEY?

[Colonel Sanders]

Registration : C-GEWW
Manufacturer : PITTS
Model : S-1T

Not me! Mine are two-seaters. A quick check
of the TC civil aircraft registry for C-GEWW show
that it is actually an S-1S owned by a Michael
Smith, based out of Buttonville.

The good thing about an off-field landing in a
Pitts is that the top wing means that you won't
suffocate when you flip upside down, like
Charlie Hillard did.

I know a guy that always claimed that if he
had to do an off-airport landing in a Pitts, he
would touch down inverted, so that he would
flip upright Sounds good at the bar, but ...

[pelmet]

I know a guy that always claimed that if he
had to do an off-airport landing in a Pitts, he
would touch down inverted, so that he would
flip upright Sounds good at the bar, but ...

Well answer me this Mr. Colonel......would you consider an upside down off airport landing in this aircraft?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ApSDpnA2k0

[Colonel Sanders]

The visuals must be quite something during the
inverted landing. Getting in and out would not
be very easy.

[pelmet]

An aircraft for the competent pilot only. That being said, I am unaware of the details of this incident.


Occurrence No. : A13C0119 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT
Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:
Date : 01-09-2013 Time : 09:00 CST
Region of Responsibility : CENTRAL

Location : CYQV YORKTON MUNI, SASKATCHEWAN


Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-GYUM Operator :
Amateur Built: YES Operator Type: PRIVATE
Kit Manuf/Model : PITTS / S1C CARs Info:
Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 1 Unknown : 0

Occurrence Summary :

A13C0119: An amateur-built privately registered Pitts S1C, C-GYUM, was on the take-off run on Runway 03 at Yorkton. After the tail became airborne the pilot was unable to maintain directional control and the aircraft departed the left side of the runway. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the pilot was not injured. The winds were 140 degrees at 3 knots at the time of the occurrence.

[Beefitarian]

YUM? That's a neat registration. Incidentally http://www.yum.com/ owns KFC.

[Colonel Sanders]

the pilot was unable to maintain directional control and the aircraft departed the left side of the runway ... winds were 140 degrees at 3 knots

Right rudder.

RIGHT RUDDER.

RIGHT RUDDER!!!

RIGHT RUDDER!!!

[cgzro]

Anybody know how many dual hours on type he had?

[Colonel Sanders]

I will wager metal blade prop, so lots of
PMI for that short little airplane.

Tail comes up, gyroscopic precession shoves
the nose left. This is true in a Pitts, Stearman,
Harvard, Beech 18, etc.

Gerry Younger teaches takeoff in the 3-pt
attitude. I teach raising (and lowering)
the tail slowly.

Christen Eagle is interesting to raise the tail
during takeoff. Fascinating coupling between
the metal-blade prop and the spring gear leads
to this wild divergent pitch-yaw oscillation which
must be actively damped.

[pelmet]

I will wager metal blade prop, so lots of
PMI for that short little airplane.

Tail comes up, gyroscopic precession shoves
the nose left. This is true in a Pitts, Stearman,
Harvard, Beech 18, etc.

Gerry Younger teaches takeoff in the 3-pt
attitude. I teach raising (and lowering)
the tail slowly.

Some good points. I haven't found much yaw when raising the Stearman tail but there could be a big difference between a 220 Hp and a 450 Hp. Plus as mentioned.....the rate of tail movement affects the yaw. Very important and maybe even more important when lowering the tail as rudder effectiveness is decreasing, especially on something that bites once in a while like the Harvard. Lower tail at a nice controlled slow rate after a wheel landing. Actually, sort of like a nosegear aircraft, lower the nose slowly or as they say....fly the nosewheel on. On occasion people seem to stop flying after touchdown and let the rest come crashing down.

And then there is the problem of jumping back and forth between taildraggers with right and left turning engines. Helps to just remind yourself what rudder input will be necessary just prior to adding power. Have done the wrong input once....oops, glad the runway is wide and the takeoff roll short. And think about the wind as well as this affect rudder input and then just use your peripheral vision and instinct for the rest.

You may not always want to lift off in the three point attitude which is sort of ground effect dependent. Crosswind and turbulence may cause problems when you are near stalling speed so I think I like the Colonel's technique better.

[Colonel Sanders]

jumping back and forth between taildraggers with right and left turning engines

I try not to overthink it. Just look outside, and let
your hands and feet do the Right Thing (tm).

lift off in the three point attitude ... Crosswind ... may cause problems

Yeah, no kidding. On a narrow runway the 3-pt
(soft/rough) takeoff technique will have you taking
out runway lights and probably side-loading the
gear if you touch down again. I don't like that much.

[cgzro]

I remember being taught 3 pt takeoffs by one highly qualified instructor, and then a second highly qualified instructor insisting on 2 point. Like 2 and 3 point landings both 2 and 3 pt takeoffs are useful, but unlike landings you can learn 2 or 3 pt takeoffs in an hour or so... Landings .. Well considerably longer... Thats why I asked how many hours the pilot had.. Because honestly if you cant take a high performance tail dragger off your chances of landing one are vanishingly small.

[Adam Oke]

I believe somewhere in the tune of 6hrs dual and not much time on the aircraft. Also in the tune of 100hrs on tail wheel. The only reason I am posting the picture is because I found it interesting CS called the shot that it was a metal prop, that and I was happy to see the gentleman ok and in good spirit. I think a large factor is also the tailwind. The report says quartering from the right, but when I was on the runway helping put it on a trailer, it was quartering from the left. For a 100hr tail wheel pilot, I think it's reasonable to be able to take off with a tailwind of this nature -- however being a fresh Pitts pilot, I would take every opportunity for things to work FOR you, given the options.

Never be ashamed to taxi an aircraft and point it into wind.

Right rudder.

RIGHT RUDDER.

RIGHT RUDDER!!!

RIGHT RUDDER!!!

I think that sums it up pretty well.

[Colonel Sanders]

Sigh.

I just checked out a nice young fellow in 5.0 hrs
in the two-seat before he went and flew his (new
to him) single seat S1S.

Please, people, get some competent instruction.
It's cheap compared to wrecking the airplane.

PS In Central America, Freddy and I would do
head-on takeoffs and landings with a 20 knot
wind down the runway. Guess who got the
20 knot tailwind for takeoff and landing?

The Pitts has plenty of power, and with it's short
fuselage, tiny vertical fin and large rudder, handles
tailwinds on takeoff and landing just fine. On the
weekend I was doing intersection tailwind takeoffs
(with smoke on, which reduces power) and into-
wind landings, in the interest of time.

Once again, people, 99% of the time, the aircraft
is not the limitation - you are. If that doesn't bother
you, it should, because otherwise this could happen
to you. Totally unnecessary. What a waste of a
good airplane, thousands of hours of labour and
tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah, good instruction
sure is expensive, isn't it?

gentleman in good spirit

Not if I could get ahold of him.

[CpnCrunch]

I think a large factor is also the tailwind.

Well the CADOR says 3 knots at 140, which would be a dreaded 1 knot or so of tailwind.

[Adam Oke]

I think a large factor is also the tailwind.

Well the CADOR says 3 knots at 140, which would be a dreaded 1 knot or so of tailwind.

The Pitts has plenty of power, and with it's short
fuselage, tiny vertical fin and large rudder, handles
tailwinds on takeoff and landing just fine.

I was swiftly corrected by CS, CpnCrunch. I was under the impression that a Pitts would be a handful with a quartering tailwind. From what I had seen at the airport, it was from the left and not right as reported in the CADOR. Quartering from the left is a big difference vs quartering from the right and is emphasized in a tail dragger (albeit in this case light winds). Having said that, with such light and likely variable winds, the CADOR is likely correct.

Good to know that the Pitts responds well in tailwind conditions.

[CFR]

I find that a Scout with a glider on tow into a 10 - 15 knot variable right crosswind (30 to 65 off the nose) is a very good exercise in rudder aileron co-ordination.

[Adam Oke]

I find that a Scout with a glider on tow into a 10 - 15 knot variable right crosswind (30 to 65 off the nose) is a very good exercise in rudder aileron co-ordination.

I also find a Scout with a glider on tow during check-out weekend with cadets fresh off course is also a very good exercise in rudder/aileron co-ordination -- regardless of winds.

[CFR]

I find that a Scout with a glider on tow into a 10 - 15 knot variable right crosswind (30 to 65 off the nose) is a very good exercise in rudder aileron co-ordination.

I also find a Scout with a glider on tow during check-out weekend with cadets fresh off course is also a very good exercise in rudder/aileron co-ordination -- regardless of winds.

It also teaches you how important it is to be able to find the tow release without having to look! (fingers crossed, haven't had to pull it yet!!)

[Beefitarian]

Not if I could get ahold of him.

More motivation for me to stick with the mighty 172s? With my luck I'd have a problem in a Pitts and then I'd meet you.

Me, "Oh good someone's coming to see if I'm ok. Hi there."
~smack~
Me, "Oww."

[cgzro]

To best glide speed question, think the S is 90ish mph my T is 100 mph.

Question how wide was runway? because 5 hours is not enough to tackle a 50ft or narrower runway.

As I said if you cant take off you have zero chance of landing.

I agree with CS, tailwind is non issue, its the metal prop and insufficient timely rudder possibly a narrow runway with 5 hours in type. Gyroscopics are pretty strong.

Another factor is currency, that 5 hours had better be in the last week or it goes off very fast. Go too long and you are back to square one with such few hours.

[Colonel Sanders]

Oddly, "too wide" a runway has it's problems, too.
This is counter-intuitive, but true in an aircraft which
is blind forward in the 3-pt landing attitude.

[pdw]

Also (in the photo) see the sky condition ? The camera appears to have captured the tail end of wave cloud. Kinda looks like it anyway ...

In that case it could have gone higher than "3 knots" when that speed varies upwards in mid wave, but direction stays same. The stronger knots aren't necessarily picked up by the single METAR on the hour.

There's some examples of "wavecloud" events available on youtube and these videos really show the moving action of the wave, which if looked at on pause (on some) would have distinct similarity to the above image.

[Beefitarian]

Oddly, "too wide" a runway has it's problems, too.
This is counter-intuitive, but true in an aircraft which
is blind forward in the 3-pt landing attitude.

Do you have a preference of which side to use for distance judgement?