Working in Europe?

[Belomor123]

Hello,

How hard is it to obtain pilot employment in Europe?
I am currently holding a CPL and will be obtaining my MIFR along with about 800-1000hrs by April 2015. Also plan to have my JAA conversion done 2-3 months later (it is a long process which i plan to start in mid 2014).
My question is, once JAA is taken care of, is it hard to obtain employment in EU? What about passport issues? do all jobs there require an EU passport?

[Krimson]

Once you have your EASA licence conversion done, you will also have to convert your IR, this will involve hours spent in actual aircraft in the same country you did your conversion. I'm going to take a guess that you're doing it in the UK, GA rental rates are fairly high. It is as you said a long process, but it is also very expensive.

Once you are all converted, you will require an EU passport. You need the right to live and work in EU. I would suggest not starting the conversion until you have citizenship. If you already are a citizen and in Europe a lot, I would knock on some doors when you have your 1000 hours to let them know you will be coming in a few years and will have some more experience by then. Start building your contacts as early as possible. It will be hard getting a job, especially just moving over and not knowing where to even begin.

Out of curiosity where are you getting your 800-1000 hours from? A job already lined up?

[Tail-Chaser]

I've already got EU citizenship, are any particular countries better for doing the flight training rate wise?

[Krimson]

It depends where you want to work. Some countries have stricter licence requirements than others, so your UK licence will not be valid without further testing in eg. Norway. If you are only going to work in one country, you would have to do the research to find out how much it will cost to convert including accommodations, rentals, etc. It might save you a lot if you have no intent to work elsewhere. The UK has a few schools which do conversions and have a *simple* process, they have done it many times before and know exactly what you need. It is easier, but not always the cheapest method.

I know a lot of airlines also hire their own nationals first before looking elsewhere, which can make it even harder on someone from Canada trying to get a job there. Plus most people looking for work with similar hours as you will likely have heavy jet FO time already. There is no GA like we have here in Canada, they go right seat at an airline out of school, usually. Expect to compete with a lot of ex-Ryanair pilots or similar. >1000 hours B737.

[Belomor123]

Ill be getting the time from instructing job I already have. This job will last me at least two years. As for the passport is there a way to work around that or not? I have Canadian and Russian passports and have looked into and able to get a British National (Overseas) passport as well. I think with those passport I should be able to get into majority of countries. Or do I still have to have European passport?

As for job seeking it will not be easy and Ill be working here in Canada until I get an offer from someone in UK (I am really interested in working out of there). I am worried that I may not have any chance at all if I cannot get a British or EU passport.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

First off, what kind of job are you hoping to get? You may have a chance at either instructing or the very small amount of GA or regional turboprop type jobs that exist. These are pretty much dead-end jobs in the UK though because any of the major airlines require either type ratings with time on type or time on similar types (ie. commercial jets) in order to get hired. If, however, you are looking for an airline job, the only chance you'll have is the pay-to-fly, zero hour contracts at places like Ryanair and Easyjet. The industry in Europe is a total disaster from a pilot's point of view. You pretty much have to spend GBP100,000+ to buy a type rating and line training in order to get a shot at a part time, no guaranteed hours, job at the low cost operators.

[CpnCrunch]

According to the wikipedia page, the BN(O) passport doesn't give you the right of abode or work in the UK, so I'm not sure it will help you. Can you get a British passport? Do you have any British grandparents?

If you have a full passport from any EU country, you can work indefinitely in any other EU country. Unfortunately I don't think your Canadian, Russian or BN(O) passports fall into this category.

Oh, and if your intention is to work as an airline pilot you'll need to get your frozen ATPL. However even with 1000hrs and a frozen ATPL you might not necessarily find it easy to find a job at an airline.

To be honest I think there are more opportunities for 1000hr pilots in Canada than in the UK. In the UK there is practically zero bush flying and a small handful of floatplanes. You've basically just got flying schools and airlines and not too much in between.

[Belomor123]

Yeah neither of the passports give me the right to abode, I've looked into that. Maybe UK is a tall order. I know that some countries (Germany and Netherlands) will allow me to live and work there just with Canadian Citizenship and passport, but odds are I will have to learn Dutch or German. Maybe that could be the way into Europe? UK would be ideal but it looks tougher and tougher to get in there.

I forget the requirements for frozen ATPL but I have IATRA already and will be getting my MIFR within a year.

Eventually I want to fly out of Europe (Canada is great but I've had a fascination with Europe since childhood so would love to at least try it out) so Im looking at any ways I could expedite that process. I have heard of Canadian pilots getting employed in Europe but Im not sure if they have done so with EU passports, or if it is even possible to fly out of Europe without an EU passport...

[Beefitarian]

I'm sure there are not as many instructor jobs there but is the pay survivable? I know the cost of living is worse than Alberta.

[akoch]

If you have the Russian citizenship and can speak the language it might just the ticket. Two kids of my friends, got their CPL's here - MIFR, about 250 hours literally fresh from the CFC and paid for their A320 type rating. With just a bit of wondering around got their SO jobs flying A320 with two different Russian airlines. That was one year ago, now the kids accumulated over 500h on the 320 both IFR and VFR (yup, they do that over there). The pay is considerably better as well.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Yeah neither of the passports give me the right to abode, I've looked into that. Maybe UK is a tall order. I know that some countries (Germany and Netherlands) will allow me to live and work there just with Canadian Citizenship and passport, but odds are I will have to learn Dutch or German. Maybe that could be the way into Europe? UK would be ideal but it looks tougher and tougher to get in there.

I forget the requirements for frozen ATPL but I have IATRA already and will be getting my MIFR within a year.

Eventually I want to fly out of Europe (Canada is great but I've had a fascination with Europe since childhood so would love to at least try it out) so Im looking at any ways I could expedite that process. I have heard of Canadian pilots getting employed in Europe but Im not sure if they have done so with EU passports, or if it is even possible to fly out of Europe without an EU passport...

I'd be very surprised if Germany and the Netherlands (and others) would allow you to work as a pilot without a EU passport/permanent residence status or a work visa. A work visa would only be granted if there were no qualified locals for the job. Awfully tough sell when it comes to pilots. I'm certainly no expert though so I could be wrong. Not only that but, at least with the majors in those countries, you need to be able to speak the local language (German/Dutch) to be employed. Kind of a roundabout way to give nationals priority over other EU citizens (something that would otherwise be illegal).

I don't mean to put a damper on your idea, but Europe is THE worst place in the world to be an aspiring pilot right now.

[Krimson]

I believe Germany would be one of the hardest places to get work as a Canadian. There are people who cannot get citizenship after living there for 15+ years.

With the experience you would have, you are looking at spending well over $50,000 on the conversion, housing, type rating. Not to mention the full time studying with no time for a job. Add that to the cost for your CPL/MIFR training here.

The conversion becomes easier (only 2 exams & check ride I believe) if you have 1500 hours on >50,000 lbs. You will also have the experience to be able to secure a job. Other than that, maybe look for Canadian companies who operate in Europe.

[Beefitarian]

Sure but if you can get a good job it would be worth 50 large right? :/

[Krimson]

Sure would. If I could live in the country I wanted and live the life I wanted, 50 grand would be a small price to pay.

Unfortunately at OP's point of career, I think finding any job in Europe would be extremely difficult and would likely result in 50 large down the drain. I would rather spend that on one amazing roadtrip.

[digits_]

Hello,

How hard is it to obtain pilot employment in Europe?
I am currently holding a CPL and will be obtaining my MIFR along with about 800-1000hrs by April 2015. Also plan to have my JAA conversion done 2-3 months later (it is a long process which i plan to start in mid 2014).
My question is, once JAA is taken care of, is it hard to obtain employment in EU? What about passport issues? do all jobs there require an EU passport?

Unless these will be 1000 hours on a turboprop or B737/A320, there is no realistic chance you will find a full time paying job in Europe. We have almost no general aviation jobs here: it's either an airline job, or nothing. Most people end up with nothing. If you do find an airline job, you'll probably have to pay for your own typerating. In such case, it's becoming national sport to hire you, let you pay for the typerating, and fire you again after one or two years. Why ? Airlines often take quite a commission on your typerating.

Instructing in Europe ? The big aviation schools are getting hit by the ecnonomic crisis and the public finally starts to realize that there are no more jobs for pilots. Thus: a lot less people try to get their license. There are flying clubs, but those operate with freelance instructors who each spend a few hours a week there. You'll make, on average 35 eur per flying hour. However, flying clubs are very protectionistic (is this even a word ?) and in general only hire members of said club.

Or you could try to drop parachutist for free, if you're very lucky you'll find a 'job' like that.

Sorry to be so negative, but unfortunately that's the way it is over here. Which is why I'm planning the reverse way
Stay where you are !


//edit: And yes, you need to speak (all) local languages in a country to get a chance at a job.

[Belomor123]

Hmm alright thanks for the input. Its unfortunate that Europe is so tough. Well Im gonna keep trying. Meanwhile Canada has given me a good home so Ill be working here until I get more experience. As for the Russian route, how much would those type ratings for A320's cost? upwards of 40-50k?

[akoch]

I recall both kids went to Florida for their type ratings and it costed well under 20k including accommodation and travel.

[FL320]

Belomor, one Canadian company can offer you all what you are looking for.
You would fly a really nice NG airplane (I enjoy it!), you could be based in Europe half a year if you'd want to, you wouldn't have to spend a cent for your type rating, your pay would be great, you would probably upgrade quicker than a FO at AC, and you would earn quicker more than a top scale AC B777 captain

[Belomor123]

Which one would that be?? And what are the requirements?

[ea306]

Generally 3000 hours minimum, ATPL, multi crew experience. Jet experience helps but I have flown with lots of guys who have come with only turboprop experience.

I am one of those guys who enjoys living in Europe for half the year. If this is your desire, you would be a good fit. Stay the course here in Canada and maybe we will see you here one day.

Wishing you success.