What's your hearing worth?

[North Shore]

Saw this in the marketplace section: viewtopic.php?f=113&t=92026

Gotta ask the question - what's your hearing worth to you? Spend all you've got and then some protecting your ears. If you still want to cheap out - check out the cost of a set of hearing aids...

Disregard, if they're for passenger purposes..

[FighterPilot]

I never understood that. It drives me nuts seeing commercial pilots with those cheap headsets. A private pilot that doesn't fly often or passengers I could maybe see, but as someone who make a a living flying commercially? A $1000 noise cancelling headset might seem like a lot of money, but I bought one knowing it would be an investment for my hearing. After a 13 hour day in the Hawker the Bose A20 is worth its weight in gold.

[SMELS]

I'm not 100% convinced with anr headsets. They are great and all but most pnr will do the job just fine. Protecting your hearing goes further than the cockpit. Driving around with your windows down wind blowing on your ear. Night at a concert or club rocking it out. All the little choices in life with duration and intensity of exposure add up. The 3-5 decibel difference in protection you get with a better headset does not save your hearing... But this sure does help bose up their sales on a pricey product.

[AirFrame]

The 3-5 decibel difference in protection you get with a better headset does not save your hearing...

You might want to study some acoustic injury research before saying that. My education in acoustics is 19 years old now, but even then, we knew that hearing damage is completely cumulative, above a certain threshold. Above that threshold, you can directly correlate intensity and duration of exposure to increased hearing loss. A 3-5db reduction most certainly is a benefit.

10 years ago, the best ANR bang-for-the-buck was the Lightspeed QFR X-Country. It's the one that looked like a Peltor with the really thin headband. It was so good because it started out as a Passive headset, that had a top-notch ANR system added to it. Remember, this was before the Zulu, and just about when Bose was selling the X.

An excellent ANR headset can be had these days by picking up a used David Clark, and installing a Headsets Inc. ANR kit. The performance is not noticeably different than the Zulu or Bose, but can be easily added to an existing headset for $200.

That, plus a used DC like this one would get you a great ANR headset for under $500. Wait until you have a steady paycheque at a flying job before you spend $1000 on a Lightspeed or Bose.

[PilotDAR]

A quality headset is a must.

I have flown with several old timers, whose hearing was poor from all those years in loud cockpits. I never want the challenges they face with poor hearing. I wear a David Clark headset while flying, good hearing protection for any machine I operate, and ear plugs for theaters and concerts.

I learned to fly without headsets, as they were not common back then - you just screamed back and forth with your instructor. Planes rarely were equipped with intercoms anyway. I saved for my first David Clark, which I bought in 1979, and stall have and use regularly.

I bought a David Clark ANR headset, but was disappointed. I sent it for warranty repair, and was still disappointed. Perhaps its ANR is worthwhile in a very loud cockpit, but in the 150, it's not worth it. I quite like the Bose noise cancelling, but have not got around to buying one yet.

Do not take your hearing for granted!

[Doc]

EH? Pardon, Say again....WHAT?
Just ask my wife.
Seriously, I've lost a good chunk of my hearing. Have 20/20 vision though.
I use a DC 10/13.4 now. If I'd had noise cancelling headsets when I started, I'd have bought one.
Yes, everyday life outside the cockpit takes it's toll. No doubt, but if you can swing it, there simply is no better investment in your future than a good headset! You'll have it for at least 10 years. Amortize that! It's bloody cheap. $1000 over ten years.....that's, less than $10 a month! Get off your wallets ya bunch of cheap shits!

[AirFrame]

I bought a David Clark ANR headset, but was disappointed. I sent it for warranty repair, and was still disappointed. Perhaps its ANR is worthwhile in a very loud cockpit, but in the 150, it's not worth it.

As much as I love my 13.4, I have to say that DC factory ANR headsets are horrible. They score very low in side-by-side tests with other brands, and it's not really clear why that has to be. ANR isn't rocket science.

Don't discount the benefit of an ANR headset in a 150. Borrow a Zulu or a Bose and try it. A 150 cockpit is definitely loud enough to cause cumulative hearing loss.

[Doc]

Have a couple of buddy's using DC ANR headsets. I'd shop elsewhere as well. But for the same price as a set of Jessie's for my BMW, I'm sticking old school. But, if you're not my age (ie, you've never seen a tyrannosaurus in person) buy the best one you can afford.

[Colonel Sanders]

I personally like ANR but remember it is used mostly
for attenuation low frequencies, which I find make me
tired after a long day.

Passive is used for mid to high freqs. It's essential.
You can't just skip the passive attenuation.

Eric bought a fancy bose anr headset which worked
ok taxiiing, but it all went to hell when the throttle
went forward. Not enough passive for a noisy cockpit.

A lot of people like the in-ear bud Clarity Aloft. No
ANR, but a boatload of passive. And there's a company
which makes exactly the same thing, except cheaper:

www.quiettechnologies.com

Friends of mine use them in very noisy airplanes.

[Beefitarian]

Yet again I agree with you, Colonel.

If you're doing long days it's not just about hearing damage. Sound causes stress and fatigue. Typically we won't even notice until we're exhausted.

[fleetcanuck]

I have to echo the Headsets Inc. kit recommendation. I have had two for my Canuck since 2000. The noise level is reported at 105db. I took the guts out of my old DC headsets and replaced them with the kit. The DCs are good at passive and when I turn on the switch for the active the level drops dramatically. I have also used a Bose and cannot justify the price difference for a performance difference that I cannot detect. When aboard my own plane I can plug into ships power, when on another plane, I can use the battery pack.

Fatigue issues and hearing protection are important and if you cannot afford the kit and a used DC to put it in, perhaps it is worth examining your priorities. If you do not like the comfort level of the DC, there are a lot of other headsets with good passive cancellation that can take the Headsets Inc kit. The install is easy. There is also a good review on different ANC systems in Avweb I think, which speaks well of the kit.

[ettw]

Essentially all of my flying is with PT6 or RR Darts.

Bought my DC H10-20s in 1990 and installed a headsets inc ANR kit in 2002 and other than replacing some wire due to fatigue and the beating my 9v batteries take in the DHC6, I'm very happy with the setup. I also use gel ear seals which work better with my glasses.

Like eyes, you only get one pair of ear drums so why not look after them? Would you go to the bench grinder without a pair of safety glasses?

Cheers

ETTW

[Tim]

Buy the ANRs and buy good sunglasses too. Once your eyes or your ears go, there's no getting them back.

[Colonel Sanders]

I am not a great fan of the ANR conversion
kits. The ones that I have seen have required
the removal of damping material which reduced
the passive attenuation, which is going to allow
the mid/high freqs in.

In a very noisy cockpit, I use these:



which have lots of passive and active attentuation.

Haven't been able to find anything better.

[Doc]

Anybody in YWG sell Bose?

[xsbank]

Ever had the doc do a hearing test by putting a tuning fork on your skull? You should wear the biggest, over-the-ear cups you can find to damp out as many of the vibrations in your skull as possible; also a really good reason to wear a helmet in extreme conditions.

I guarantee your batteries will crap out just as you stuff the throttles forward so passive is extremely important. Also, if you buy Bose-type, the electronics will fail and you will have to send them out for repairs, so make sure to have a backup. Ask me how I know.

Those Telex in that previous photo have the highest-rated passive of all the ANR headsets. Many of the ANR-type don't even publish their passive stats. Gee, I wonder why not?

I flew my first float plane, a 1958 C180, without any hearing protection because it didn't exist. I went to concerts like Jefferson Airplane, Big Brother and The Who. You will be delighted to discover that people think you are retarded when you have hearing loss because you tend to answer the wrong questions - you try and fill in the blanks that you just didn't hear as you get fed up with saying "say again" in conversation. You don't always get it right. Going to the bar with the gang has become an impossibility.

In a classroom setting, that all became a problem as I would get asked a question about something and I'd respond with a totally unrelated anecdote. Huge waste of time and an embarrassment to all concerned. Also, an ATC with an accent? I could not understand a blind word the controller in Maastricht was saying. Dick. He was using standard aviation-speak and was doing it all right. That becomes an operational issue that even good headsets can't help, thankfully my copilot had been there before and understood. Think of the latter parts of your career...

I now have hearing aids which I seldom wear, because they are a huge pita.

If you can prove your hearing loss is due to work, Worker's Comp will buy you some. If you can't convince the taxpayer, a pair of digital hearing aids is $6000.00 and the suckers are NOT waterproof nor are they particularly large so they are very easy to lose. If you insist upon using cheap headsets, now is the time to budget for those digitals!

Plus, you reach down to give your gorgeous young wifey a hug and your H.A. squeal in her ear... silly old fart.

You can avoid all this... oh and turn down your iPhone. You may get a near-orgasmic experience from your music, but now I can't hear a high hat, crickets, most birds, my knife screeching on a plate but worst of all, those mechanical things that are about to fail, frequently screech first. Use me as a sad example and wise-up.

[Shiny Side Up]

Protecting your hearing goes further than the cockpit.

One of the problems I always see is many pilots don't put their hearing protection on before starting the airplane. This seems to be a hard one to get across to students too, who many of don't come from industries where hearing protection is a must. One thing I notice is that my old DC H10-30s offer way more passive protection than the new ones do, though that comes at a cost of being somewhat heavier.

[BobBates]

First of all I do not like ANR headsets. Every time I tried a pair they squeaked and popped when I ate something on a long trip. I tried a David Clark head set with the after market ANR installed and they were so bad that I threw them out the Beaver window. If you want them they are somewhere around Stuart Island.

The good news, I bought the Clarity Aloft and was very impressed with the quietness and comfort.
The bad news, I dropped them in the Fraser River on the fourth day of use.

As far as passive head sets go, the Peltors are significantly quieter than the more expensive David Clarks.

I too have had the tuning fork on the forehead. It was my first medical when I was 18 and I could hear it clearly. The doc (not our doc) said I will always have excess noise problems, no matter what head set, so I found that wearing a hat reduces the noise levels into my ears.

I am going to by a new set of Clarity Aloft or the ones like Colonel Sanders just mentioned, Except my wife doesn't like the average cost of $150 per day that the Clarity Aloft cost me.

And Xsbank, I am right there with you.
Bob

[AirFrame]

I am not a great fan of the ANR conversion
kits. The ones that I have seen have required
the removal of damping material which reduced
the passive attenuation, which is going to allow
the mid/high freqs in.

FWIW, the Headsets Inc kits now provide damping material that is custom cut to fit both their inserts and your earcups when you upgrade. I haven't seen a David Clark with damping material that was particularly fancy.

[privateer]

Has anybody had any issues with this setup?

[Colonel Sanders]

Is that the Bose A20? As I mentioned previously, Eric
bought a pair. They have great ANR but very little passive
so they work great in a quiet cockpit. In a noisy cockpit
they are useless.

It's difficult to recommend a single headset that works
best for everyone in all airplanes.

For a quiet cockpit, you don't need much passive attenuation.
Get a Bose A20 - the ANR will really make you feel better
at the end of a long day - no headache, because no low freqs.

For a noisy cockpit, you have two choices:

1) Telex Stratus 50D which is massive. Lots of passive and
active attentuation, but heavy and bulky. My choice, because
I haven't found anything better. I really like lots of passive,
and lots of ANR.

2) Clarity Aloft (or the cheaper clone) which uses an in-ear
plug for a LOT of passive attenuation, but no ANR. Advantage
is that they are light and take up no space between your head
and the canopy. Disadvantage is that the ear plugs tend to fill
up with wax etc (I can't use Q-tips to clean my ears, because
I just can't stop pushing when I feel resistance). The ear plugs
must fit perfectly, and be in perfect condition.

my wife doesn't like the average cost of $150 per day that the Clarity Aloft cost me

You remind me of guys that join the gym in February and
pay $400 for the annual membership, and go twice. I tell
them they should spend their money on hookers

[AirFrame]

Has anybody had any issues with this setup?

That's an iFlyMike plugged into the consumer-oriented Bose QC2 or QC3 headset. According to users, the performance is on par with the Bose aviation headsets.

The downside is that if the battery dies you lose all audio... There's no non-ANR backup pass through like on the aviation headsets.

[AirFrame]

2) Clarity Aloft (or the cheaper clone) which uses an in-ear
plug for a LOT of passive attenuation, but no ANR. Advantage
is that they are light and take up no space between your head
and the canopy. Disadvantage is that the ear plugs tend to fill
up with wax etc (I can't use Q-tips to clean my ears, because
I just can't stop pushing when I feel resistance). The ear plugs
must fit perfectly, and be in perfect condition.

Keep in mind that the Clarity Aloft and other in-ear-only headsets only attenuate noise through the auditory canal. They do not attenuate anything that comes in through bone conduction around the side of your head. For that, you need a regular full-cup headset. Hearing damage due to bone conducted noise is still possible.

[captcrunch2013]

The new noise Cancelling headsets "Can" work in "some" "situations".
However, a regular David Clark headset without noise cancelling drops the noise
by a significant amount.

If we are in a very high noise aircraft, the solution is a combination of ear plugs and a regular headset.
With the volume up a few DB you hear the intercom and radio as if you did not have ear plugs
while dropping all the other noise.

Last time I flew anything like an open cockpit pits, I used ear plugs, headset and a throat mike.
With ear plugs and a David Clark, the noise level appears to be low enough not to cause a risk of harming
your hearing.

I don't see a problem with fitting ear plugs.
The foam cheaper kind are standard in underground mining business
where I once worked with David Clark style noise protectors over the ears.
The foam plugs expand to custom fit.

There are also the Orange plastic foam plugs that come in a variety of sizes
and they also expand to custom fit.


I sometimes use those to ensure a night's sleep which is
more important the noises we endure when we are awake.

One of the best features of head sets is their "noise cancelling microphones,
that stop the noise getting into your microphone which is where
the greatest noise is reduced.

[Rowdy]

Good luck with WCB for a hearing loss claim in aviation. If you're an airline guy, they will flat out deny you as it is just under their 'decibel limit' and 'does not cause hearing loss' even when it's been a documented decline over your career. They will also then find ways to prove that you were not in province for that period of time and thus not their responsibility. Even though you live and are based in say vancouver your entire career with Jazz/AC/Transat/whatever, they are headquartered in Ontario/Quebec/wherever and 'not our problem'. The companies home province will say the same 'you lived and were based elsewhere, go fly a kite'. As such, you're on your own for hearing aids. As many have pointed out, they are costly. Do yourself a favour, avoid this, avoid the battle with workers comp. Avoid not being able to have a decent conversation with your wife, grandkids and in many cases, the general public.

Side note, while on contract to PKS flying the two headed float rodent, we frequently had their OHS managers and other health and safety type folk on board. One day they were along with some equipment to check on noise levels and a couple of injury cases resulting. When we taxied out, the shouting match asking where his hearing protection was for the ride made me chuckle as I pointed to where the earplugs were in the seatbacks. He simply shook his head. When we landed, he held up one of those fancy little meters. Sure enough. Over the limit for short term exposure. When asked about my headset and why the passengers were not provided with them, his eyes widened to find out that not only were mine simply passive, but the cost was too high to 1) provide them for paying passengers 2) have a sufficiently PNR and ANR for myself. Same thing, he returned with 'go get some proper hearing protection,you'll thank me twenty years from now'. The next time I saw him. He'd brought his own hearing protection along for the ride. A short while later.. I had a better headset and now I even put earplugs in under my helmet when on the bike. It makes a world of difference to me at the end of the day. I'm betting I will be much better off when I'm my fathers age and retired.