Project: Parkland Airport - West of Edmonton

[azimuthaviation]

Does anyone know who the new tenants are? Any flight schools, operators, AMOs or anything interesting like that yet?

[Tom H]

A group of us were chatting this morning during our winter seal up project at the museum and we all ended up commenting on the same things...

While we could all come up with a very long list of airstrips, aerodromes and airports that have been closed for property development reasons locally, regionally and nationally we could only come up with (2), that right (2) that have opened including Parkland.

So while the Public expects:
To be able to jump on an airliner on a whim
Get their parcels and mail overnight
Have air ambulance on stand by to save them if need be
Have water bombers ready to stop that grass fire
and on and on and on...

They won't support facilities needed to train:
The pilots
The technicians
The support personnel
etc. etc. etc.
unless they are pushed into the most undesirable locations as far away as possible and even then if it might, and I say might, have an impact on them they will still rail against the facilities.

Talk about wildly hypocritical...

Students are students...put a school where it's hard to get to and there is no public transit it will fail..regardless of the course. But it's ok to do that with aviation.

Post Secondary students SCREAM if tuition or services may go up in spite of the fact the vast majority of their education is paid by tax dollars...but it's ok post secondary aviation education isn't subsidized and if it costs more too bad.

This is a self destructive pattern that if continues will end up with no service and no personnel and the public will no longer have it's cheap airfares etc.

Short sighted and narcissistic if you ask me

In my highly biased personal opinion

[Flightfan151]

So Rona Ambrose is concerned about Fire safety. I wonder if she did any research on this herself or if she is just regurgitating the invalid, inaccurate information fed to her by the AAC. Ambrose suggests that the fire response time would be upwards of 25 minutes. Good gracious! How long would it then take for fire support to reach Villeneuve? According to google maps... Devon fire support is 16.5km from Parkland Airport (13 minutes of drive time) Yet Spruce Grove is listed as the closest fire support to Villeneuve at 18.2km (23 minutes drive time) Now I certainly don't want to criticize Villeneuve, as I am sure they know what they are doing (as they are well established in the area) that is not my intention here, but if 18.2 km is not a concern, the why should 16.5 km be a concern. (amazing what you can discover when you actually do the research yourself) As far as her concerns about water, don't Parkland a Villeneuve fall into the same category here again? (along with Josephburg and Cooking Lake) Couldn't this problem be solved simply with self contained water? The last concern she seems to have is about the Clifford E. Lee bird sanctuary. Okay, Bird strikes are always a concern but how concerning should it be with Clifford E. Lee being 7.4km away? I have searched and searched for information on a migratory bird path anywhere near the Parkland airport and I cannot find anything at all. So if anyone has any information on this, I would love to read it! Now don't get me wrong, I am pretty excited about the prospect of Parkland Airport becoming certified. I will be able to hop a flight to Calgary that much sooner.

[Flightfan151]

It seems to me that the AAC has done a pretty good job expressing their concerns about this project. Perhaps what these government officials now need to hear are some positive responses regarding the development. I, for one, intend to let them know my thoughts. I am strongly encouraging any posters on this sight, who strongly support this new airport initiative and the progress of aviation across Canada, to also take a few minutes out of your day and contact some of our politicians. I have listed some of them below for your convenience.

Rona Ambrose, MP, Edmonton-Spruce Grove
6801 170 Street
Edmonton, AB T5T 4W4
rona.ambrose.C1@parl.gc.ca
(780) 495.7705


Steve Blaney, Minister of Public Safety
307 Confederation Building
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6
steven.blaney@parl.gc.ca
1-613-992-7434


Joel Brown, Aerodrome Division, Transport Canada
1100-9700 Jasper Avenue
Edmonton, AB T5J 4E6
joel.brown@tc.gc.ca
(780) 495.7411

Lisa Raitt, Minister of Transport
307 Confederation Building
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6
lisa.raitt@parl.gc.ca
1-613 996-7046

[ditar]

The migratory bird issue is a red herring. For example, anyone who has flown out of Medicine Hat for any length of time is accustomed to flocks of geese flying 500 feet overhead the airport 24 hours per day for half the year. We all seem to make it work, airplanes and birds alike. The same can be said for numerous other airports I have flown in and out of throughout the north, and much busier ones at that. Parkland County isn't the only place that has birds transiting its skies.

[rac007]

If you're not from Rona Ambrose's constituency, then add your local MP to that mailing list in addition to the other four.

[marshall]

I am a Parkland County resident and I am very concerned with the way the PADC has conducted it's business within the County thus far. Firstly, Specifics of the business aside, PADC has and is disregarding the residents opinions (whether based in fact or not). Secondly, PADC Is not portraying themselves as a Corporation that investors should feel secure about investing in. As a new business developing in any community who bypasses the local requirements and politics and who in themselves start playing national level politics to achieve their own agenda threaten the very market they are trying to profit from? (Aviators, Aviation, etc) Thirdly, PADC, to my knowledge has not publicly issued a plan of development or business proposal to insure a long-term profitable investment. Nor, has there been any environmental asessments completed for the proposed development. (ground water levels and implications to local aquifers, etc) And finally, they are presumptive to imply that "Federal Jurisdication will help with the approvals and zoning..." At the end of the day, some of those approvals will have to be approved by the local authority as pointed out in an earlier post.

I don't deny anyone the right to progress or enhance the County of Parkland. However, I do have the right to question and to be educated when any development where there is to be a profit made from it and where my tax dollars WILL be spent is proposed.

Just another humble opinion. Thank You.

[hoptwoit]

I learned oo fly at St Andrews outside of Winnipeg. One of our call points was oak hammock marsh. There were a lot of birds there and it was closer to the airport check it out on Google maps!

[Flightfan151]

In response to Marshall.. I am also a Parkland resident, however; I am not concerned with how the PADC has conducted their business, as they have done everything legally and with due process. If they had not done so, the federal government would have intervened. As far as listening to the opinions of the residents, based in fact or not actually becomes quite important. I dare you to find an area anywhere in this province where all of the locals within 8 km will accept a new airport with open arms. I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict the impossibility of that scenario. The alternative is this: all smaller aerodromes and airports will end up being closed with zero new ones being opened. We are then left to import our pilots from other countries as training facilities become less available. Alberta actually has a remarkable reputation for training accomplished and respected pilots. I, for one, am not prepared to sacrifice that for the sake of two or three dozen vocal residents. I understand the politicians have to listen to the voice that speaks the loudest but I also wish they would consider the thousands of other Parkland residents who are looking forward to this new found prosperity for our growing community and are quietly sitting back, anxiously waiting for it to happen.

[anonymity]

Wrong forum

[culver10]

A municipality is all about paying for services by collecting property tax income. An 80 acre parcel of farm land generates very little tax revenue, probably less than $500.00/year. If there are 20 hangars paying $1500.00/year that small parcel of land is now generating $300000.00/year! Once Parkland County starts collecting that sort of revenue I bet they will like the small airport much better???

[MUSKEG]

I think your a little out on that tax revenue. By like 270 thousand.

[Prodriver]

I think that new airport is a great asset for Parkland and area and will be a great asset to the business community. My friends that live in the area are in full support of it and look forward to using it and see it as a great asset for there business and lifestyle.
Looks like pavement will be going down this week I hope!

[Prodriver]

I hope someone opens a steak house at he airport and serves AB beef grown by the locals! That would be great and would be handy for catering for my Jet! Onwards and Upwards!!!

[Tom H]

I've re read this particular post several times and this part bothers me...

However, I do have the right to question and to be educated when any development where there is to be a profit made from it and where my tax dollars WILL be spent is proposed.

any development where there is to be a profit made

I wonder does that include the poster's neighbors farms?
Trucking businesses?
Green houses?
Corner stores and gas stations?

or just places where there will be airplanes.

where my tax dollars WILL be spent

The county has said they won't improve the road.
The Parkland airport site has no water.
The Parkland site has no sewer.

So where will those tax dollars be spent? Legal fees?

In my highly biased personal opinion

[marshall]

In response to FlightFan151. Perhaps you missed the latest news? The Federal Government is now involved. In response to Tom H. Yes, I like to be educated on all businesses that propose development in Parkland County especially when they are developing prime agricultural land. Secondly, tax dollars will be spent on road upkeep, policing, emergency response, etc., Legal fees? Parkland Council is in a legal battle with PADC at this time. So I would have to say yes to that as well. And those taxes are just at the local level. Parkland County Council as far as I understand backs the growth and continued success of the Villeneuve Airport, why is PADC not investing in that ongoing development?
Has the property in question be zoned industrial/commercial? Without County approval, how does PADC propose to provide it's owners with .... a "professionally designed utility system" ? Also, how does PADC intend to provide it's owners with "titled lots" without firstly being granted permission to subdivide? Has the planning and establishing of appropriate protection criteria been carefully studied to protect the incompatible and sensitive farm land in the vicinity?

These are just some of the questions I have regarding this particular proposed development. I look forward to further discussion.

[ScreaminBanshee]

I am a Parkland County resident and I am very concerned with the way the PADC has conducted it's business within the County thus far. Firstly, Specifics of the business aside, PADC has and is disregarding the residents opinions (whether based in fact or not). Secondly, PADC Is not portraying themselves as a Corporation that investors should feel secure about investing in. As a new business developing in any community who bypasses the local requirements and politics and who in themselves start playing national level politics to achieve their own agenda threaten the very market they are trying to profit from? (Aviators, Aviation, etc) Thirdly, PADC, to my knowledge has not publicly issued a plan of development or business proposal to insure a long-term profitable investment. Nor, has there been any environmental asessments completed for the proposed development. (ground water levels and implications to local aquifers, etc) And finally, they are presumptive to imply that "Federal Jurisdication will help with the approvals and zoning..." At the end of the day, some of those approvals will have to be approved by the local authority as pointed out in an earlier post.

I don't deny anyone the right to progress or enhance the County of Parkland. However, I do have the right to question and to be educated when any development where there is to be a profit made from it and where my tax dollars WILL be spent is proposed.

Just another humble opinion. Thank You.

Our tax dollars are being spent on fighting a court case that Parkland county officials admitted that was not in their jurisdiction TWICE in public forum. They were spending your money knowing they would lose. PADC is not playing "National Level Politics". They are following the rules that apply to them.

To break this down on a basic level, take a senior citizen for example. The senior citizen is entitled to a 15% discount at a restaurant. One of the other patrons thinks its not fair that the senior citizen gets a discount (Even though he is fully entitled to it) and demands that the senior citizen pay full price for a meal(After all, they have been full price for a meal all their life). Then they start a group berating the senior citizen publicly for continuing to get a discount. They then write letters to the manager to make sure the senior pays full price. The manager tells the group of people that it is the owner of the restaurants rules and it is out of his control. The people then write letters to everyone who can contact the owner of the restaurant. They publicly rant about the senior citizen saying that he is bypassing the managers rules to pay full price and playing politics by claiming it's the owners rule to achieve his own agenda of getting a discount.

Seems a little silly doesn't? You are saying the PADC is bad because they don't follow rules that don't apply to them.

Most corporations do not publicly issue a business plan. PADC is a private company and nothing they do has to be made public. Therefore you don't know if they have had environmental assessments made, traffic assessments, ground water assessments, etc. None of us do. Private companies don't have to educate the public on any of their operations unless required by law.

On Oct 24, the judge ruled that it is federal jurisdiction and that the county cannot interfere. So I don't believe the PADC preemptively implied anything about Federal Jurisdiction. They did their homework. Parkland Council's legal battle is over.

The Federal Government has always been involved as the airport is federal jurisdiction. Not really big news. The Federal Government can subdivide the property as it is under their jurisdiction and not the county's(Remember who gives the county and the province their power). The property does not need to be rezoned under the aeronautics act to commercial or industrial(Although with increased tax rates I am sure that Parkland County will soon rezone some of the area). Oct 24th court ruling said that Parkland County could not interfere therefore the PADC CAN supply a "professionally designed utility system" as the county cannot deny them a permit(Like they tried to do with the hauling of gravel).

PADC nor most businesses will ever invest in Villeneuve as it is controlled by the ERAA. City Centre left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Plus I don't know how they justify spending $6,000,000 of tax payers money on a 1,500 runway extension that has been on going since the beginning of the year! In contrast, PADC will have built an entire airport in 2 months. So if you are wondering where your tax dollars are going, ask Doug Horner. Maybe ole Doug is telling Parkland they have to support it. If anything, people should be more mad at that. PADC's airport has no tax money going into it.

[Tom H]

Marshall

In response to Tom H. Yes, I like to be educated on all businesses that propose development in Parkland County

So if I was to quiz you on the latest business developments in Spruce Grove and Acheson Industrial Park you would have the information?

I cannot imagine a local retail store or small manufacturer providing and distributing their business plan to Council much less the residents at large...as a past business owner I have never seen such a requirement and if there was who would comply in public releasing business planning information to such broad range of potential competitors?

especially when they are developing prime agricultural land.

So you have had a voice in opposing all of the greenfield residential developments in Parkland County?

Those developments have had a far greater affect on agriculture, wildlife, water etc. and eaten up far more prime agricultural land than the proposed PADC development.

Secondly, tax dollars will be spent on road upkeep, policing, emergency response, etc.

As tax dollars are currently and as tax paying land owners the PADC and those that purchase their properties will also be tax paying land owners, so the problem is....

An airport provides no more load on those services that the acreage residents in the surrounding area. Once construction is complete there is no heavy traffic, there is no additional policing beyond what is in the area and as far as emergency response you need look no farther than Villeneuve Airport to see there is no effect.

As I have recommended before...go look at similar operations it will give you an understanding of the real effects that you can personally see.

As far as the Federal regulation of Aviation, this is a perfect example of why it is and must be Federally regulated...it is of National effect.

My frustration is from what I posted above:

So while the Public expects:
To be able to jump on an airliner on a whim
Get their parcels and mail overnight
Have air ambulance on stand by to save them if need be
Have water bombers ready to stop that grass fire
and on and on and on...

They won't support facilities needed to train:
The pilots
The technicians
The support personnel
etc. etc. etc.
unless they are pushed into the most undesirable locations as far away as possible and even then if it might, and I say might, have an impact on them they will still rail against the facilities.

Talk about wildly hypocritical...

Students are students...put a school where it's hard to get to and there is no public transit it will fail..regardless of the course. But it's ok to do that with aviation.

Post Secondary students SCREAM if tuition or services may go up in spite of the fact the vast majority of their education is paid by tax dollars...but it's ok post secondary aviation education isn't subsidized and if it costs more too bad.

This is a self destructive pattern that if continues will end up with no service and no personnel and the public will no longer have it's cheap airfares etc.

Now as to PADC not supporting Villeneuve...

You cannot buy the land at Villeneuve which, right or wrong, is what has created the market for the Parkland Airport.

I might suggest that you read what the owners of the aircraft and businesses at City Centre Airport have been through so you can be educated as to WHY some do not see leasing as an option.

More over:

As we close small airports across this country we close the systems of training, apprenticeship and the fabric of what provides personnel to service the National Industry.

As I note above there have been dozens of aerodromes/small airports closed in the last decade (5) in the Capital Region alone.

The response of the AAC in it's local interest works directly against the National interest in maintaining a strong Canadian aviation industry to service the needs of the entire country.

If it were not under a Federal jurisdiction local self interests would halt any new aviation development anywhere, in spite of the damage it does.

In my highly biased personal opinion

and no I have no vested interest in Parkland nor am I likely to ever be a user, but arguments put forward have driven me into the debate.

[LisaResident]

You will not be allowed to buy land at the PADC site either. You can lease the hanger but PADC is the owner of the land.

[Tom H]

You will not be allowed to buy land at the PADC site either. You can lease the hanger but PADC is the owner of the land.

Sorry to contradict you but all information I have seen is they are selling lots and that information matches with people I know that are intending to purchase.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[LisaResident]

I work in real estate and have pulled title to the property. It has not been subdivided. Only one title exists for the property. You can not own the land under the hanger unless the PADC is planning on allowing tenants to share interest in their title or they are planning on subdividing.

[ScreaminBanshee]

I work in real estate and have pulled title to the property. It has not been subdivided. Only one title exists for the property. You can not own the land under the hanger unless the PADC is planning on allowing tenants to share interest in their title or they are planning on subdividing.

Hey Lisa, they have only owned the property for 6 weeks. I'm sure the subdivision is in the process. Doesn't usually happen super quick. Probably why no hangars have started yet.

[LisaResident]

I work in real estate and have pulled title to the property. It has not been subdivided. Only one title exists for the property. You can not own the land under the hanger unless the PADC is planning on allowing tenants to share interest in their title or they are planning on subdividing.

Hey Lisa, they have only owned the property for 6 weeks. I'm sure the subdivision is in the process. Doesn't usually happen super quick. Probably why no hangars have started yet.

Obviously it doesn't happen super quick. There is no proposal for subdivision filed either. Ask these developers how they plan on subdividing an property classified as an aerodrome? Is there a precedent set? Does it now become a bunch of little aerodromes? Will new title holders have the same jurisdiction under transport Canada that the aerodrome held? Will they be splitting the interests of their title with hanger owners. There are only a limited number of options when it comes to holding title to land. Once again, many questions still left unanswered by this developer.

[marshall]

I appreciate that some of my questions were answered. I wasn't asking for sarcasm just clarification. I do believe in the vital need for airports. In the past myself, my family, friends and co-workers were frequent clients/pilots of City Centre and were just as upset over the way it was handled as most of you. I absolutely agree with small regional airports that provide training, medical e-vacs, flights and the opportunity for pilots to own their own land. However, In MY humble opinion i don't agree that an airport should be built on top of prime grade one agricultural land. Roads and runways can be built on top of any kind of land with proper engineering and money. Airports can be built in areas that are not already populated by people and operations that could potentially pose hazards to the pilots and aircrafts. If the concern is Airport closures than proper planning and discussion should be confirmed prior to development to ensure long term viability for all concerned. The very nature of farming is in direct conflict with Transport Canada's own guidelines. Do farmers and rural landowners not have the same right to their quality of life as the pilots and aviators have to their right to learn and fly? With all due respect, that is just my opinion.

[Flightfan151]

I am getting confused. I thought people were protesting safety issues of this airport but now that they have been addressed, everyone suddenly wants access to the business model? Unless you are planning to invest, probably none of your business...sorry to sound offensive. I can see that those opposed are grasping at straws to try and stop the development but I think it is time to embrace progress. Parkland is growing at an exponential rate. Prime farmland is being gobbled up and developed every year. I am sorry to all of those who are trying to preserve the solitude of their farms but progress is coming this way and from several directions. There are many multimillion dollar developments (non airport related) coming up the pipe. This is just the start. The mayor of Parkland stated in an earlier publication of the Stony Plain paper that he want to put Parkland on the map for industrial growth.