Project: Parkland Airport - West of Edmonton

[ScreaminBanshee]

I wasn't trying to come across as sarcastic and I truly am sorry if I did. I was just trying to break it down.

Honestly, I don't see how farmers are effected. The land was bought from someone who had it for sale. Sure the AAC has quote TP1427 or something like that. Look close. There is no enforcement clause. It is a recommendation only. What does that mean? Well for one it would let an airport owner know what he shouldn't plant on airport lands if he/she has a bird problem. Secondly, if the bird problem is so severe, they could then approach neighboring properties and ask them not to plant said crops. The two parties would then work out some sort of compensation. But no one has to agree to not plant what they want. It is a free country as long as the crop isn't illegal. All of the Acheson industrial park was prime farmland. All of the land around Edmonton will get developed more and more. As Tom H pointed out, you can't build a business that is far from population. Also, airport closures aren't a concern when the airport is privately by people who are interested in keeping it around.

Obviously it doesn't happen super quick. There is no proposal for subdivision filed either. Ask these developers how they plan on subdividing an property classified as an aerodrome? Is there a precedent set? Does it now become a bunch of little aerodromes? Will new title holders have the same jurisdiction under transport Canada that the aerodrome held? Will they be splitting the interests of their title with hanger owners. There are only a limited number of options when it comes to holding title to land. Once again, many questions still left unanswered by this developer.

I imagine you wouldn't see a subdivision proposal filed because it probably has to be subdivided by the feds as it is their jurisdiction.

[LisaResident]

I am getting confused. I thought people were protesting safety issues of this airport but now that they have been addressed, everyone suddenly wants access to the business model? Unless you are planning to invest, probably none of your business...sorry to sound offensive. I can see that those opposed are grasping at straws to try and stop the development but I think it is time to embrace progress. Parkland is growing at an exponential rate. Prime farmland is being gobbled up and developed every year. I am sorry to all of those who are trying to preserve the solitude of their farms but progress is coming this way and from several directions. There are many multimillion dollar developments (non airport related) coming up the pipe. This is just the start. The mayor of Parkland stated in an earlier publication of the Stony Plain paper that he want to put Parkland on the map for industrial growth.

Just trying to open your eyes to the kind of developer you are supporting. My support goes to the responsible developer, not the PADC. If they are such a responsible developer why weren't the environmental assessments and community impact assessments, that Transport Canada is imposing on the developer now, done ahead of breaking ground? Had the PADC conducted themselves in a more transparent manner to begin with, they may have avoided the storm of controversy they are now receiving. A responsible developer would have addressed the concerns of the community, tried to gain the support of the municipality and done the environmental assessments prior to breaking ground. None of this was done by the PADC. Because of their business tactics legislation regarding aerodromes and jurisdiction is now being challenged by many in a way that could be potentially detrimental to the aviation community. Is that who you want to back? What makes you think they will treat their tenants with any more respect then they did the community or municipality?

[Tom H]

Marshall

I wasn't asking for sarcasm just clarification.

Which is what most on this thread have been providing. If you read back over my posts on this thread I have done my utmost to be clear concise and educate as to the issues.

Unfortunately it seems most of my efforts on trying to provide accurate un-editorialized information have been ignored so I am getting testy to say the least in spite of best efforts not to. Combine that with the way many others comments on this thread and in the media have blown the anti aerodrome arguement credibility.

But when you say this:

I absolutely agree with small regional airports that provide training, medical e-vacs, flights and the opportunity for pilots to own their own land.

And follow it with this:

In MY humble opinion i don't agree that an airport should be built on top of prime grade one agricultural land. Roads and runways can be built on top of any kind of land with proper engineering and money.

You lose me.

Runways need large open areas that are reasonably level, unlike a road which can be dramatically uphill/downhill or curve. That unfortunately means, for the most part, it is going to be agricultural land as it most often offers the correct geography.

and here again:

Airports can be built in areas that are not already populated by people and operations that could potentially pose hazards to the pilots and aircrafts.

Airports need to be within a reasonable distance of centres to be
a) of use
b) accessible
c) profitable

Where would you expect an airport of this type to be located?

As I asked of LisaResident and I believe Auntie Aerodrome, offer (3) alternatives that have:
1) The geography needed for an runway and facilities
2) Are close enough to be useful
3) That are comparably accessible for students and users

Now here again:

The very nature of farming is in direct conflict with Transport Canada's own guidelines.

How can you state something like that when you are surrounded by evidence to the contrary?
-Villeneuve
-Edmonton International Airport
-Westlock
- Wetaskwin
and a host of others are all in farming areas and in most cases have active farming in place.

Do farmers and rural landowners not have the same right to their quality of life as the pilots and aviators have to their right to learn and fly?

Certainly, as we are all also subject to change and change, particularly as close as Parkland is to Metro Edmonton and growing Spruce Grove, is inevitable and constant.

Compromise and adapting are part of life.

In my highly biased personal opinion

edit - italics added after

[Flightfan151]

Thank you LisaResident, I appreciate you taking the time and showing an interest, however; I am confident in my support of the developer. I attended a couple of the meetings they hosted last winter and found them openly transparent. Of course, there were many concerned citizens in attendance but after having their concerns addressed most went away satisfied. Now I may be making a wrong assumption here, but it seems that most of the group who is now expressing their concerns did not attend those meetings, as many of these concerns have already been publicly addressed. And why should they have attended, as at the time, the airport was not in their backyard. As for the municipality, representatives did attend those meetings as well. They were fully aware of the PADC's intentions and while they publicly stated that they will continue to support Villeneuve, they were not apposed to progress and they requested to be kept in the loop. The municipality has really only become actively involved in response to the vocally opposed residents. They were doing their due diligence. Politics.

[skymarc]

An environmental assessments and community impact assessments for a small airport?
Come on, from the province with the tar sands?

[Cessna driver]

The LOTS are FOR SALE



Not LEASE

[fuelguy]

I'm still trying to understand the business model. Typically, at most airports, (yeg, ybw, zvl, ylw, yvr, yka, etc etc etc) the lots are leased. Long- term. Cyxd has been "doomed" for many years. Period.
Cooking Lake was given their airport to the condo association. But only after getting a million bucks to keep it sustainable. Airports are highly regulated, and for good reason. Things like lighting, surface condition reports, safety management systems, etc, etc, are all expensive, unfortunately, and necessary. I get the intrinsic value of fee simple, but I also get the potential of a "cash call" when the fees can't support ongoing costs. Airports do not make money.
But please, prove me wrong, and give me a few examples of small airports that are profitable?

[Tom H]

I'm still trying to understand the business model. Typically, at most airports, (yeg, ybw, zvl, ylw, yvr, yka, etc etc etc) the lots are leased. Long- term. Cyxd has been "doomed" for many years. Period.
Cooking Lake was given their airport to the condo association. But only after getting a million bucks to keep it sustainable. Airports are highly regulated, and for good reason. Things like lighting, surface condition reports, safety management systems, etc, etc, are all expensive, unfortunately, and necessary. I get the intrinsic value of fee simple, but I also get the potential of a "cash call" when the fees can't support ongoing costs. Airports do not make money.
But please, prove me wrong, and give me a few examples of small airports that are profitable?

Off the top of my head from memory so correct me if I am a little out of date:

Buttonville
Pitt Meadows
Springbank (last I read the YYC financials)
Boundary Bay
Langley

and after being in the Seattle area a bunch in that area (Seattle, Everett, Bellingham)

So while not common it is definitely possible.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[fuelguy]

Of those mentioned, how many were built from ground up, vs being funded from other sources, THEN transferred over? And do those profitable airports lease or sell their lots?

[Prodriver]

Maybe the County and concerned residents should chase the rail industry around after the wreck they had in there county and the terrible environmental damage from the train (twice in two years). Better put a stop to all that crude being hauled on rail!! After the QC accident I think rail should be banned!

[Prodriver]

Sounds silly doesn't it!

[fuelguy]

Not sure how relevant a rail discussion is?

[Tom H]

Of those mentioned, how many were built from ground up, vs being funded from other sources, THEN transferred over? And do those profitable airports lease or sell their lots?

Morning

Without doing some research that I simply do not have time for I can't comment on the question.

But I can say that over the years I've run a number of business models and P/L sheets on doing a small airport facility both in this region and a couple other locations and it is very doable...if you have access to the Capital (which I don't).

The models were based on selling the lands with a Condo Fee/Airside access fee and while the numbers were not quick time get rich they were quite reasonable.

This matches what a couple of friends did in the 1980s in Eastern Canada and are still going strong and now in their retirement years keeping them busy and giving them an income.

So as far as the business model, yes it sure can work selling the lands and even my business account of the day agreed.

The problem today is that opposition is everywhere (as we have seen here) and blown out of proportion and it's easier to make big, fast dollars on developing properties as opposed to operating a business.

Running a private airport, much like most things aviation, is a lifestyle that provides a reasonable return rather than the "big score" of other paths.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[Shiny Side Up]

Running a private airport, much like most things aviation, is a lifestyle that provides a reasonable return rather than the "big score" of other paths.

This is the big advantage to having an airport around, it will provide a steady ammount of income, stability and a reasonable rate of return and growth. Its a long term return on investment to an area which is almost unheard of when it comes to municipal planning these days. Contrast that to big quick return typical plans of residential subdivision, which are generally more favored since they give a larger injection of cash which is more front loaded to pad pockets now. One always has to wonder how many opposers to airports are land developers/future subdividers who are seeing some opportunity at quick bucks disappearing.

Its unfortunate that things are so short sighted.

[MrWings]

How can you state something like that when you are surrounded by evidence to the contrary?
-Villeneuve
-Edmonton International Airport
-Westlock
- Wetaskwin
and a host of others are all in farming areas and in most cases have active farming in place.

I think most airports in Alberta, maybe even in Canada, have farming right beside them. It is probably easier to list those that don't than ones that do.

[Beefitarian]

Someone makes round bales of grass on the inside of the fence at Calgary international airport. It's kind of like a farm right in the city.

[Prodriver]

He is proof that rural people like planes and airports! Let's gett'er done!

http://copanational.org/FlyingFarmers.cfm


http://www.internationalflyingfarmers.org/

[Prodriver]

Not sure how relevant a rail discussion is?

It is very relevant, the odd thing happens in the transport industry and that is why it is called an accident. I don't like people trying to bog a project down w/ silly red tape like a bird study etc. I would like to thank them for there concern, but if we hit a bird on approach out insurance provider will repair the aircraft, just like they will clean up the approved railway spill.

[Flybabe]

Letters have been written, will be going out in mail on Monday.

I'd email but it's harder to avoid the piece (in this case, pieces) of paper in front of you.

[Prodriver]

Letters have been written, will be going out in mail on Monday.

I'd email but it's harder to avoid the piece (in this case, pieces) of paper in front of you.

Letter about what?

[Flybabe]

Letters of support for PADC and illustration of holes in anti's arguments.

[Beefitarian]

First arrival, there's video for those who live too far away to have been affected.
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=92629

[ScreaminBanshee]

Looks like their first fire truck arrived onsite today. Looks like a good response vehicle.

[skymarc]

Asphalting is going on also.

[Flybabe]

Awesome. Been through the area a lot in the last couple weeks, was seeing lots of b-trains hauling gravel. Exciting