Rouge rosters?

[GRK]

Re: FO offshore contracts. Serious question: Is there anyone here that might be able to show me where a contract FO might find an overseas posting (as an FO) that leads to a LHS? Because from experience I know they are few and far between...I'm gonna say that the Middle East is about the only place that does it as a career progression. Even then, the minimum requirements are still pretty high, and they work one to the bone! Plus they expect a return on their investment...as long as your are in "debt" to them you belong to them. I am familiar with the situation that exists for the "Pay To Fly" crowd and even then it's a dead end for most. The DEC positions that are advertised are quickly being filled and the Terms are crumbling even as we watch. No more decent allowances (school and housing) and yet the positions are still being filled. The FO positions are even worse, certainly from a career standpoint. So the 4 year flat pay offered by AC is gonna be it for a loooong time! Where would these people go to beat the pay? Not much out there and the airlines know it. The work past 60 crowd can't be blamed in my opinion, they all have their own reasons and far be it from me to dig too deep. It's a done deal and the new guys have to be able to plan their careers on that little gem. The slow and sure race to the bottom is not just a Canadian thing, it's happening globally...SQ just let all their Expat Captains go, in order to try an protect their own locals, and Scoot (SQ LCC) is offering a pay to fly 777 job at a seriously nasty pay level, which is a take it or leave it deal. No allowances etc. The majority of those guys (ex SQ) have had to scramble to find meaningful work around the world at lower pay and terms than they were used to. It's a tough world and not looking to get better anytime soon. Guide yourselves accordingly. Fly Safe.
GRK

[anonymity]

GRK,
This doesn't quite answer your question but it seems to contradict your assertion that,

the Terms are crumbling even as we watch

, 1500 pic, no type rating required for 737 capt. I would say 1/2 of the FOs at Jazz would qualify for this. The terms look fairly descent, my only concern would be the 20 on, 10 off, are you actually working all 20 days or are there some regs like the Canadian ones with duty limits etc...
Do you have some examples of where the conditions are worse now as opposed to last year or years past? Everything I'm seeing points to a shortage of experienced pilots, especially in Asia.
Position: Captain B737-800, Airbus A330, Airbus A380
Assignment: Skymark Airlines Co., Ltd., Japan - (SKY) (BC)
Flight Base: Tokyo.
Length of Assignment: Three (3) years plus training for initial contract.
Renewal is expected, but not guaranteed.
Expected Start Date: Classes Starting Monthly for B737
Classes for A330 in Fall 2013 and A380 Winter 2013
Interview: Tokyo Monthly, Miami August, Montreal September, Spain October

Qualification Requirements: 1) 1500 hours minimum total PIC time. No Type Rating required for B737. For A330 a Type Rating in Airbus family aircraft. A380 will initially require A380 Type. (Required experience in one or more of the aircraft types listed) B717, B737-400 to 900, B757, B767, B744, B777, B787, A320, A321, A330, A340, A380, MD90, MD-11, EMB145 to 195, CRJ200 to CRJ1000NG, F100
2) Airline Transport Pilot License (“ATPL”) from ICAO recognized country.
3) 5000 hours minimum total Pilot flight time.
4) Captain Position in last Flight Experience. (most cases)
5) Max age: 60 or below at Class start for ICAO ATPL.
60+ may be considered for current JCAB ATPL holders.
6) Current or Recent Airline operational experience.
7) Last Flight Experience within last 1 ½ years.
8) First Class Medical Certificate. (ICAO)
9) Radio License issued by member of ITU.
10) ICAO English Proficiency Certificate. (Or equivalent)
11) Letter(s) of reference. (On Request)
Note: Special consideration may be made for pilots with a JCAB - ATPL License
Compensation: Approximate $175,000 + comprised of:
75Hour Guarantee: US$8,000 month
(Note: Initial Training pay US$7,000 month) Japanese income taxes are paid by Skymark.
Yen Adjustment: Yen adjustment payment,
(Yen to USD exchange rate - when below is 85 to $1USD.)
Contract Completion Bonus: US$9,000.00
Overtime Rate: $106.67/hour over 75 hours (Line Captain Rate)
Flight Per Diem: Japanese Yen 150,000/month flat rate Per Month.
Housing Allowance: Japanese Yen 250,000/month, upon successful completion of JCAB
Captain Line Check.
Japanese Taxes: All Japanese Taxes are paid by Skymark.
Loss of License Insurance: Optional LOL Policy – will be available soon.
Move-in/Furniture Allowance: Japanese Yen 300,000 (one time allowance), upon successful completion of JCAB Captain Line Check.
Travel Assistance: One positive space round-trip airline ticket each month from assigned base to home of record. Or optional cash payment in-lieu of ticketing.
Vacation: 20 days per year. (24 days per year on second contract)
Sick Leave: 12 days per year.
Medical/Dental Insurance: Japanese National Medical Insurance provided by Skymark. Worldwide Group Medical plan coverage for Employee provided by IGL. Additional family coverage is also available.
Income Protection Plan: Covers 85% of Base Pay for two years. (Conditions Apply)
Education Allowance: Optional Education Assistance is available. (Conditions apply)
Training: Initial training is normally conducted in Tokyo, Japan. Monthly training guarantee, hotel accommodations and a flat rate
Per-diem allowance are all provided during initial training.
Route Structure: Japan Domestic, and Short Range International Destinations
Schedule: 20 Days on and 10 days off and free from duty each month.
(Off days assigned in Blocks to allow for Home travel)
Uniforms: To be provided by airline.
IASCO Global Pte. Ltd. (IGL)
333 North Bridge Road #08-00,
KH KEA Building, Singapore 188721
Apply online http://iascoglobal.acquiretm.com/job_de ... vCanada.ca
For more information please contact our Flight Crew Leasing Departm

[GRK]

Hi, It's easy...$7000 a month while training? The JCAB licence will take about 6 months to acquire. Secondly...$8000 a month? (175k a year) Really? Even with the "allowances" it's a lot less than a job like that should pay...about 4000 a month! Yes they will make the 20 days productive, if I was them so would I...does it say anywhere what the upgrade policy is for FO's? Wander over to pprune and have a read about this offer. It's a little low money wise. I agree that Asia is short of talent, and there are quite a few contracts available, but ask yourself, if I go over as a First Officer, will I get a shot at Command? How good is the safety culture? How many days will I work in a row? Where will I live and in what? (apt villa or???) Schooling for my kids? WIll my family have to come? How about the commute? On who to where? Theses are all open ended as many contractors apparently have free reign to change the Terms at will, and do so frequently. I suppose if one can get a LOA from his current employer that holds his seniority number, it would be a good adventure, but if you head out to EK, or EY (to name a few) your number must be resigned or no job for you! Tough decision...The carrot being dangled by some of these Contractors is seemingly fat and juicy, but the contract you see upon signing will look very different from the new one you are presented with when you show up for training. My latin is suspect but I would advise Caveat Emptor if you choose to go off shore. Fly Safe! GRK
(IASCO is or used to be one of the better employers and in no way is the body of my post a reflection on their Terms, but others out there are less than scrupulous in their business dealings...like I said, Caveat Emptor)

[Big Pistons Forever]

The happiest pilots I know have the following priorities when job hunting

Lifestyle-Money-Tin

[hithere]

How does $8000/month become 175K a year ?
$8000/month X12 = 96K a year. No?

[tbaylx]

How does $8000/month become 175K a year ?
$8000/month X12 = 96K a year. No?

If you read past the first line you'd see that the $175K/year is comprised of a long list of benefits, of which the $8000 salary is only the first item on the list.

[Buzz Lightyear]

To come back to the subject at hand how would it work on the 319 for a commuter if it's just turns? Does that mean you would be "home" (crashpad) in YYZ every night?

I was under the impression that there would be several day pairings with layovers at some canadian places (Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton...) like Transat or Sunwing presently do.

Can anyone elaborate on that?

Cheers!

[TheStig]

To come back to the subject at hand how would it work on the 319 for a commuter if it's just turns? Does that mean you would be "home" (crashpad) in YYZ every night?

I was under the impression that there would be several day pairings with layovers at some canadian places (Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton...) like Transat or Sunwing presently do.

Can anyone elaborate on that?

Cheers!

Any elaboration at this point would be speculation. With 30 A319's expansion beyond YYZ is likely in the next couple years, but who knows where and when? With the 4 year freeze in mind you'd likely be better off bidding for a different position like the EMJ if you're looking to transfer to YVR/YUL or to the 767 LCC FO or any RP position if you're planning to commute from a non crew base. The good news is that by the time you're offered a starting date, there will be a better idea of what positions may be available to your class (hopefully with a few options) and maybe even a better idea of rouge's future route structure so you can get an idea of what you're jumping into.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Hey all,

Just wondering how many aircraft are now being operated by Rouge?

Do we start to have a better picture of what the rosters are gonna be like? Are the A319 back in YYZ every night, meaning you are constantly working single days or are there any 3 or 4 day pairings (with layovers in YUL or any other Canadian city) ?

Has anyone in here transfered from mainline to Rouge? Do you see operational, social, work quality differences (we'll leave the pay aside obviously)?

Cheers!

B.

[Mig29]

Hey all,

Just wondering how many aircraft are now being operated by Rouge?

Do we start to have a better picture of what the rosters are gonna be like? Are the A319 back in YYZ every night, meaning you are constantly working single days or are there any 3 or 4 day pairings (with layovers in YUL or any other Canadian city) ?

Has anyone in here transfered from mainline to Rouge? Do you see operational, social, work quality differences (we'll leave the pay aside obviously)?

Cheers!

B.

Not to derail your question, but I think it's a fair guess to say that there are no benefits of going there , other then flying bigger metal or being in the right seat of a bus/'67. With the price of lowering the quality of life for yourself...

[TheStig]

Hey all,

Just wondering how many aircraft are now being operated by Rouge?

Do we start to have a better picture of what the rosters are gonna be like? Are the A319 back in YYZ every night, meaning you are constantly working single days or are there any 3 or 4 day pairings (with layovers in YUL or any other Canadian city) ?

Has anyone in here transfered from mainline to Rouge? Do you see operational, social, work quality differences (we'll leave the pay aside obviously)?

Cheers!

B.

Not to derail your question, but I think it's a fair guess to say that there are no benefits of going there , other then flying bigger metal or being in the right seat of a bus/'67. With the price of lowering the quality of life for yourself...

MiG, that's not a fair guess. While being in a senior position at Mainline is preferable, the rouge positions (left and right seats) have been quite popular, with senior pilots bidding them, relative to similar paying positions at mainline due to the socialized aspect of monthly/vacation bidding. The details of the LCC LOU (its portion of the contract) are highlighted on other threads, but the gist of it is 16 days and minimum 77.5 hours credit per month, with no reserve. Compared to potentially being on reserve at mainline, working every weekend and holiday, with monthly minimums fluctuating all the time, there is actually a huge upside to bidding rouge.

For new hires the hourly rates are pretty close for the first 4 years, but there is much more potential to make extra money at the LCC. If I was just joining I'd be hoping for an LCC spot, although with so many single day turns the 319 might not be the best fit if you're planning on commuting, the 767 would be.

Buzz, not that much has changed in the last month. Right now the 319 is still flying single day turns. There is lots of line indoc going on so schedules are pretty erratic and not an accurate picture of what they're going to look like down the road. The first YUL positions were on the last bid as the airline is planning some routes from there later this winter (Orlando and Vegas). I wouldn't be surprised to see some LCC 767 positions in the future as the airline also recently announced some new (LCC) routes from YUL starting next summer (Nice, Barcelona, I think?).

The only thing that's popped up with the LCC working conditions thus far is the fact that flights to Athens aren't augmented, the resistance to the whole concept is that;
1) It is completely moronic that one airline is paying two massively different rates to pilots to fly the same airplanes, do you really think pilot wages determine the profitability of these routes? I don't.
2) It is enabling junior pilots to have better schedules than senior pilots, love them or hate them, seniority systems only work when they apply to the whole group.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Thanks TheStig!

The thing I was the most afraid of regarding the LCC was the commuting aspect but seeing that YUL is in the picture makes me see it as a viable option. Having a young family at home, socialized bidding is something I could get used to very easily. Seniority based airlines are just a constant source of conflict within the pilot group and I can't stand it.

Mig, I hear you. I like where I am right now but have a feeling it's not going to last much longer under these working conditions. I'm junior on the aircraft that I fly and can't even dream of spending Christmas or some summer holidays with the kids so it may be a punch in the face to start with but it could turn out for the best in the long run. I may be wrong, only time will tell.

Anyway, still have to go through a 2nd medical first and then get a call....

Buzz

[Mig29]

For guys who already are with Air Canada going to rouge is one thing, but if I was off the street I would prefer mainline over rouge any day....but that is a personal choice, and it would be a silly for us to argue about personal preferences

Cheers

[TheStig]

For guys who already are with Air Canada going to rouge is one thing, but if I was off the street I would prefer mainline over rouge any day....but that is a personal choice, and it would be a silly for us to argue about personal preferences

Cheers

Not looking to argue either, but I'm curious why?

[flyincanuck]

YUL base is opening up for the 319. 10 spots. Will likely grow.

319 is starting florida layovers.

When you take a breath and look at how pay is awarded...it's a pretty good deal. A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more). Floating around a pool on a noodle for 2 days aint bad either.

[yycflyguy]

A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more).

How do you figure? The pay increase from 767CA to 777CA at mainline is around $35k. It's even worse comparing rouge rates to mainline 777CA. You can't make that up in per diems.

[scopiton]

Floating around a pool on a noodle for 2 days aint bad either.

aren't crews doing the round-trip in one day ? 2 days of lay over doesn't sound very productive in term of credit.

[yycflyguy]

Floating around a pool on a noodle for 2 days aint bad either.

aren't crews doing the round-trip in one day ? 2 days of lay over doesn't sound very productive in term of credit.

I think he was referring to the L767 pairings. Most of the L319 flying are turns.

[Buzz Lightyear]

YUL base is opening up for the 319. 10 spots. Will likely grow.

319 is starting florida layovers.

When you take a breath and look at how pay is awarded...it's a pretty good deal. A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more). Floating around a pool on a noodle for 2 days aint bad either.

Good news! Any chances of seeing a YUL base for the 767 you think?

!Does anyone knoiw what are the per-diems like on both machines?

Cheers

Buzz

[Hilton]

What is the longest trip/Tour of duty pilots do at Mainline or Rouge?

H

[DBC]

At full implementation, 319 will be max 5 days, with a max of 15% of pairings being 5 days. 767 will max out at 7.

[ratherbee]

A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more).

How do you figure? The pay increase from 767CA to 777CA at mainline is around $35k. It's even worse comparing rouge rates to mainline 777CA. You can't make that up in per diems.

I guess you never read the TA or the FOS? L74.10.04 (double time and a half draft premium).

[bcflyer]

A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more).

How do you figure? The pay increase from 767CA to 777CA at mainline is around $35k. It's even worse comparing rouge rates to mainline 777CA. You can't make that up in per diems.

I guess you never read the TA. L74.10.04

That kind of thinking is one of the many reasons this industry is in a downward spiral. Working a draft to make more money isn't the same as actually being paid a higher wage to start with. If I work my ass off and do all the drafts being offered to me I can probably make as much on the 320 as a 767 F/O. Using your line of thinking I am now being paid as much as the 767 F/O.

The only sensible way to compare wages within the same company is to look at hourly rates. The rates for L767C are far far far below what a mainline 777CA makes,

[DBC]

A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more).

How do you figure? The pay increase from 767CA to 777CA at mainline is around $35k. It's even worse comparing rouge rates to mainline 777CA. You can't make that up in per diems.

I guess you never read the TA. L74.10.04

You are talking about a LCC 67 Captain working 20ish days vs a 777 Captain working 9 or 10.

Also isn't November the first month where the 767 has pairings that are 3 days or less? how does L74.10.04 apply? L74.10.01 seems more apt unless I am missing something.

[yycflyguy]

A few 67 skips are making 777CA pay (if not more).

How do you figure? The pay increase from 767CA to 777CA at mainline is around $35k. It's even worse comparing rouge rates to mainline 777CA. You can't make that up in per diems.

I guess you never read the TA or the FOS? L74.10.04 (double time and a half draft premium).

LOL

Yes, in some people's eyes working more hours is a pay raise. Stop being ridiculous ratherbee, you're debasing yourself.