Form letter to the Jazz MEC

[chikiebella]

Its been to many talk behind the doors that lead nowhere.

ACPA recognized it and this is why they are supportive unanimously at the MEC level of a coalition to solved the problem. Only the president of ACPA didn't get it yet. But the way that the structure and constitution is made he is forced by the MEC resolution to act in favour. That is not what he did on October 3rd unfortunately.

Apathy is the best way to define what is going on at AC when it comes time to support the union. Some members are more engage and vocal and others don't have a clue of who is in office to represent them.

One thing is sure is that the members who are engage are the one who vote get informed and challenge the decision of their MEC. All the pilots who are well informed at AC are very supportive of such an action because they made their own mind.

I don't want to intervene into Jazz business but it seems appropriate that the Jazz grassroots start to ask questions as why in 2013 it is still happening when the FLVC's has been use at large since 2006.

Can we try something different? Why are we scared to challenge the legislator when they violate their own CAR's?

I don't think that this government will have the appetite to change the CAR's to allow foreigners to get more access to our employment market after the FLVC's have been challenged on a judicial review and has been the centre of the Medias attention. Specially so close from the next election.

This is why if we row all together in the same direction we will be able to archive our goal without the judicial review and the medias attention.

I am not directly affected by the foreign pilots. It won't touch my job and my pay. But I am extremely concerned by the devaluation of our profession and licenses.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, I just read a detailed response from our MEC about this meeting and while I don't want to publish it on a public site I will say this, they agree with your view on the issue but they have been advised against the tactics you're suggesting.
I am personally satisfied they are moving in the right direction and in our best interest. It would be great if this was fixed overnight but the fact is, you/we could win a legal battle with T.C, which could abolish FLVCs and they could change the regs to suit their needs, so it would be all for naught.
Thank you for all your efforts!

Thank you for this post. I will then clarify and tell you the truth.

I was not proposing any tactics. I was not proposing any methods.

Here is what the position of our Committee was:

1) We think FLVCs are illegal as they are used for Canjet and Sunwing.

2) ALPA, athough they don't interpret the CARs exactly like we do, has also come out in a secret March 20th 2013 letter to Transport Canada in stating that they also agree that FLVCs are illegal.

3) We asked ACPA to form a coalition with us (ALPA) against FLVCs. ACPA accepted, unanimously.

4) We asked that ALPA Canada accept to join ACPA and other unions in such a coalition against the illegal use of FLVCs.


How that coalition was going to be formed, what its game plan was going to be, what methods it was going to use to fight FLVC, all this would be left up to those who were going to form that Pan-Union Committee against illegal FLVCs.

Gilles Hudicourt was not going to decide these things. Gilles Hudicourt was not going to dictate the methods that were going to be used. Gilles Hudicourt was not going to be directing strategy. It was not even determined that Gilles Hudicourt would be part of the Committee or that I would accept to be part of it.

So in essence, what ALPA said "NO" to on Oct 03 had nothing to do with my methods, nothing to do with my strategies, nothing to do with the fictitious LAWSUIT against Transport Canada that they put forward as a scarecrow to those present although I never said or suggested that is what I wanted to do.

What ALPA voted "NO" to was the creation of a formal Pan-Union Committee against the illegal use of FLVCs on which it would sit (by nominating people to it), along with other nominees from other Unions, including ACPA, and which Committee would decide on how to deal with those illegal FLVCs in the manner the Committee saw fit.

Such a Pan-Union Committee would have had tremendous bargaining power had it included ALPA, ACPA and the WJPA.

Had ALPA voted "YES" on Oct 03, this issue would now be in controlled hands of a Pan-Union ACPA-ALPA (and possibly other unions) Committee, which would be making its the decisions on strategy and methods. Not me.

Had ALPA voted "YES" ont Oct 03, this issue would no longer be in my hands and on public forums, where the ALPA Oct 03 vote left it and I would not be be here, writing this today.

Respectfully.

Gilles Hudicourt

[teacher]

Gilles,

With all due respect there's nothing we can do to change the government’s policies unless they themselves decide to do so. No matter what we do if they don't want to do it they won't. That has been the policy of the Conservative government from day 1. ALPA has based their efforts on this premise that if you go against the grain than progress will not be made. It's better to be in the room negotiating than outside holding a picket sign isn't it? Just look what they did to us (Jazz)!!! Even though it's spelled out in our contract that we ARE NOT an essential service we were labeled as such after our strike vote and threatened with back to work legislation.

To add to the above do you really think that the government would make a drastic change affecting Sunwing and Canjet therefore also affecting the cheap vacations of thousands of Canadian all for a few hundred pilot jobs at best? I don't think so. The best we can hope for is what ALPA has done so far and have incremental changes to the rules that have a limited effect on the bottom-line of a Canadian company.

The only drastic technique we could ever use to change the rules would be if EVERY pilot in Canada refused to go to work until the rules were changed in our favour, PERIOD. But we all know that would never happen. Next best thing in my opinion is to have a seat at the table and talk this out with TC and the Canadian government. It's slow and painful but it's better than no progress at all.

I'll take a guess here but I'm sure that what ALPA is afraid of is ALPA represented pilots making noise and embarrassing the government and therefore shutting ALPA out from the room and any further negotiations on the subject.

**I support ALPA's efforts thus far HOWEVER I reserve the right to withdraw my support if I choose in the future

[prop2jet]

Teacher, it might be worthy to go back and review what transpired with the Foreign Worker program. If I recall RBC was sending work offshore causing a number of Canadian workers to lose their jobs. It was in large part their vocal opposition and bringing it to the forefront of public awareness that the Feds had to do a quick backtrack. It does not look good on them when jobs are being farmed out.

Working within the political system is to be expected however there also comes a time when one has to make light of the hypocrisy of it all. If they can't or won't enforce the current rules, what is to stop them from enforcing new ones?

[teacher]

The RBC situation may have sped things up but ALPA had been dealing with this issue already for years. Those new rules were in par the ones negotiated by ALPA for many years as far as I've been told.

The slow pace of change is appalling I agree, but saying ALPA isn't doing anything is hugely incorrect.

[chikiebella]

Prop2jet,

I like the way you think! The RBC employees got themself respected. As for Teacher the long approach with the government would be the way to go if we would have to make them change the law.

But the problem here is that the law is already there they just ignored it.

The FLVC's are illegal. The foreign workers or pilots should have a social insurance number and pay taxes EI and CPP. The employer in this case Sunwing and Canjet should also pay their part of the cotisation to CPP and EI. These guys are paid offshore right now. What kind of society allow that to happened? What kind of union allow that to happened?

By closing our eyes on the violations and negotiating with them make us accomplice to a certain degree.

Since 2006 foreign pilots came and left on the same scheme every winters. On the reciprocity I am ok with that but it's not what's happening right now. The reality is ALPA and all the other unions failed miserably to address the problem and nothing has been done to stop this practice so far. As Canadians Pilots we have the responsibility to protect our profession.

How long do you think it will take for construction workers unions to kick foreign workers out?

It's sad that with us pilots we always take the good guy approach. We also always find one of us welling to sell us all to better themself. If it's not by selling the juniors by negociating a different pension plan or a "B" scale it's by preparing the landscape for a good job at TC... Lol.

It's really sad to watch that sometime.

I am close to half the list at AC it won't touch me. But I still care for my other brothers in the flight deck who might some day (like 2020 for instance) looking for a job and realized that the market is flooded by foreign pilots and they don't have a PPC on B737.

With all due respect!

[chikiebella]

The RBC situation may have sped things up but ALPA had been dealing with this issue already for years. Those new rules were in par the ones negotiated by ALPA for many years as far as I've been told.

The slow pace of change is appalling I agree, but saying ALPA isn't doing anything is hugely incorrect.

Do you realized that you said it yourself ... The RBC employees they didn't work for years on it and they got result right away.

Maybe they got the right approach to their problem.

And they did that without a union.

Imagine with a union now...

It will takes years!

Lol

Ps: And it would also take a good chunk on their pay cheque.

[teacher]

What I meant by my RBC comment is that the ground work had already been laid out by ALPA for the rule changes and the media spotlight sped the implementation.

As for FLVCs I must admit I am being swayed by all your arguments. I will now do what an ALPA member with concerns SHOULD do. Ask MY reps for an answer and move up the chain if need be to get it.

I will admit though that I am kinda surprised how little ALPA has said about his subject. Cargojet scabs a U.S. Airline with a few pilots and all hell breaks loose. We import a few hundred pilots and layoff Canadians and nothing is said. Again I was told there was a reason for this silence so a choose to believe my elected ALPA reps at this time but continue to question and push to make sure my best interests are being met.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I never said or insinuated that ALPA did nothing for the Foreign Pilot issue. Quite the contrary. When it came to fighting CIC, HRSDC and the CTA they did great.

However, I met a wall at ALPA when it came to fighting Transport Canada for it's role on this issue. And Transport played a major role in allowing thousands of foreign commercial pilots into cockpits the CARs did not allow them in.

1) ALPA was not willing to challenge TC on FLVCs
2) ALPA was not willing to challenge TC on foreign pilot flight time and duty time limitations. Foreign pilots flying for Canadian airlines with an FLVC (and thus a foreign licence) are still limited to their foreign licence limitations when flying in Canada: in the case of European pilots, 900 hours in a year, 13 hour duty day and many other such restrictions that are neither respected nor enforced by Transport Canada, and ALPA does not care or make an issue of it.
3) ALPA did not challenge TC on CAR 203 restrictions that say that pilots flying foreign registered aircraft under CAR 203 must be "employed by the lessee" when for several years Sunwing had foreign pilots employed by the lessor who were flying foreign registered aircraft under CAR 203. Transport Canada claims that when full time British Thomson pilots, paid by Thomson in the UK were in Canada flying UK registered aircraft registered to Thomson on behalf of Sunwing under CAR 203, the Thomson pilots were to be considered "contract employees of Sunwing" and not employees of Thomson and thus complied with CAR 203. I will believe in the tooth fairy before I believe that one.......
4) When last winter, Sunwing imported a Slovak registered wet-lease, although said company did not have a Canadian Foreign Air Operator's Certificate (CFAOC) as required by the CARs, ALPA did nothing.

There are many many angles under which the foreign pilot problem can be tackled. Whenever it concerns Transport Canada, ALPA is not present. Or if they are present, it is with secret letters like the March 20th letter, that we can only learn about through ATIP requests, if at all.

ALPA Canada seems to entertain a very special and close relationship with TC, one that will not allow it to antagonize or challenge Transport in any form or manner, even when TC shafts our profession on a grand scale, as is the case here.

[rhythm101]

I have often wondered why the companies - Air Canada, Westjet, etc - are not doing more to combat foreign pilots.

As for a pilots perspective, wouldn't the best, most efficient, cost effective and long term solution be to add our support to the College of Professional Pilots? With a College, no pilot could operate in Canada without being a member and - much like the medical profession - without passing Canadian exams and receiving a Canadian licence. Just one of the many benefits of taking control of our profession.

[TrailerParkBoy]

Great point rhythm101.

And for the fighting the TC issues about foreign pilots, why not get to the consumers. Why not let them know who might be at the controls of their Canadian purchased vacation?!?!

The majority of people traveling don't even know which airline will be taking them...I mean even people who buy tickets on Air Canada don't even know who or what Jazz is, and they have been flying the same passengers around for many decades!

[teacher]

Trailer, people will care until someone says the prices will go up and they'll fall silent, sad reality.

[Old fella]

Great point rhythm101.

And for the fighting the TC issues about foreign pilots, why not get to the consumers. Why not let them know who might be at the controls of their Canadian purchased vacation?!?!

The majority of people traveling don't even know which airline will be taking them...I mean even people who buy tickets on Air Canada don't even know who or what Jazz is, and they have been flying the same passengers around for many decades!

Certainly your statement has merit. I for one didn't know the issue(s) at Sungwing, CanJet and AT et al on foreign pilots flying Canadian registered airplanes with Canadian vacationers out of Canadian airports when there are Canadian pilots available for these jobs. I think it would resonate with the general public even if they do not understand things aviation(a good many certainly do not).

It will be interesting to see later on with this new EU agreement what the labor mobility substance(if any) will be.

[Black Cat]

I was the one who asked Gilles to put that letter in writting. He does not know me by anything other than my handle. Why would anyone want to be know by their real name with such venomous people around.

I asked Gilles to do this not because of the reasons you state but to make it easier for jazz pilots to ask ALPA "what's up with this", get some clarification on what Gilles is saying, And the reason they didn't support Gilles when others have.

Personally, I don't understand why ALPA would not support what Gilles is trying to do? Am I missing something? I want ALPA to know exactly what the issue I am asking about, is about. I don't know a pilot who is FOR foreign pilots working in canada. Why isn't our assosiation voicing this for us and supporting those who are trying?

Most importantly, ALPA has not issued any memo that I can find, it was NOT brought up at our last union meeting and the theme was national level proceedingss.

Thanks again Gilles


BC



PS "Beotch", I really hope your just a rouge pilot and not someone who is involved with my association. I am embarrassed to be associated with your toxic and unprofessional behavior...LOW, even for AvCanada. If you doubt I am a jazz pilot PM me your name and I will get back to you with the date of our most recent memo.

[mbav8r]

Black Cat,
No memo has been issued to address this meeting, however if you took part in the most recent "The Contact" on our ALPA site, you would've been able to voice your concern there. Someone did and there is a detailed response to it.
If you go there and click the link " the Contact", the answer to question 42 will address your concerns or at least clarify the Jazz MEC's position on the issue.
I've read through the letter posted by Gilles on your behalf and fail to see why you wanted this posted anonymously, if you have a concern you could always use the ask me button or call your local rep. In the last paragraph, it also almost reads like you're an elected LEC rep yourself, if so, are you afraid of being ousted from voicing your concern? I would be very disheartened to learn that elected reps can't voice their concerns or my concerns for that matter.
One last thing for now, if you want to reach more Jazz pilots you should share your opinion on the ALPA web boards as well, just my opinion.

[Black Cat]

Thanks, I'll go check that out MB.

[Black Cat]

Well that was a disappointment, same line I got when I asked my rep. A non answer. You would think if any pilot group would be ready to fight for jobs it would be us.

[biatch]

Enough of the childish name calling.
Bandaid

[chikiebella]

Black Cat I would like to thank you to come forward and to have the guts to expose your opinion on this forum. I have the deepest respect for you and your voice

These days I am reading a book about Albert Speer who was the architect of a very well known German leader mid 30’s to 1944.

Mr. Speer is doing a great job at not taking responsibility for his own actions into his autobiography but he clearly explained the course of action that lead Germany to solved the economic crises and to rebuilt itself to the country that later on destroyed an entire continent.

What he explained in his own biography shocked me and make’s me think the past few days.

In the mid 30’s that same German leader had a lot of initiative for is people and that made him very popular. He drove the country from a difficult economy post wartime to a fast track economic recovery with the construction of highways and buildings that made any other civilization envy.

There is no definite point were that leader changed to become the one who will later destroy Europe and Germany. The change was insidious and the power slowly corrupted the man responsible for that mess.

To use the words of Albert Speer :

“In the 30’s the politic line was so uniformed that it was impossible for Germans to expose their own ideas in public because of the uniformity of those same politic ideas.”

Fear to go against the party line…

On October 3rd I lived my biggest political defeat. I have to admit it’s been a life lesson.

The MEC chairs present were so well briefed and conquer that it was truly impossible to bring them new notions about FLVC’s and the way that TC is handling the situation.

It was a total defeat on the politic side but we won the battle of legal arguments without any dough.

The director of civil Aviation was invited to answer some questions after the presentation we did on the FLVC’s. I wish I had a camera to document that. Martin Eley of TC was not confortable with the situation and we clearly demonstrated that TC does not have any legal background to validate these licenses.

We are opened for debate. Debate and exchanges of opinions are good and democratic.

We have been as much transparent as it is possible to be. We have nothing to hide and we even shown the down side of our option during the presentation.

Our detractors attack the messenger because they can’t attack the message.

ACPA MEC was clear on the message they sent to ALPA. We are onboard…are you?

Now to talk about ALPA president he did a good job at putting all his weight to stop any actions toward the FLVC's.

Maybe its time for the grassroots to take the debate to a higher level and challenge their own MEC .

Ask questions and get involve but by all means please get informed.

Don’t be afraid to PM me with your phone number I will be happy to get a chat with any one of you … including you Biatch.

If you are not happy with your union representative answers please send the letter on this thread.

With respect and solidarity,

Michel

[teacher]

Check your emails for the latest AMES regarding this issue.