737-500 crashes in Kazan, Russia

[Rudy]

http://rt.com/news/passenger-plane-crash-kazan-866/

[Rudy]

CBC is reporting it was their second approach attempt.

[bizjets101]

http://avherald.com/h?article=46b9ecbc&opt=0

[Troubleshot]

Caught on CCTV, looks like a complete nose dive?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1384773205

[flyinthebug]

Disturbing video to say the least.

Condolences to the families and friends of those lost.

I also heard they missed on their 1st attempt and this was their 2nd approach. Very sad.

[Elliot Moose]

Here's another

http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm

I taught pilots from Tatarstan airlines some years ago when they were going to buy CRJ900's. Scary outfit and some scary piloting skills at that airline!

[Gino Under]

Ak Bars Aero is the name associated with this "accident" despite the Kazan, Tartarstan label initially attached claiming Air Tartarstan as the airline. Okay, whatever.
I'm not surprised they augered in. I AM surprised more of them haven't. The lack of piloting skills and abilities in that part of the world coupled with poor regulatory oversight, nepotism, lack of training and completely invisible use of CRM along with an acute shortage of "glass"/FMS abilities creates a very dangerous mix. A mix found on so many former soviet era flight decks now showing up in more modern and more capable western aircraft.

We'll see what comes out in the wash.

Gino

[JDW]

1900 and 2500 hours for the crew of a 737!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Ru ... 987-1.html


Just three days after 50 people died in the crash of a Boeing 737 in Russia, a government panel said the pilots climbed too steeply after their first missed landing attempt, then lowered the nose to try to gain speed, but they overcompensated and sent the airplane into a near-vertical dive. The Interstate Aviation Committee said there were no problems with the airplane or any of its systems, according to the Associated Press. The report was based on an analysis of the flight data recorder. The cockpit voice recorder's tape has not been found, the AP said, although the box itself was recovered.

An official from Tartarstan Airlines said in a news conference on Tuesday that the two pilots had undergone all the required instruction, and their total time was 1,900 and 2,500 hours. Neither of the pilots had any known prior experience with executing a second landing attempt in the 737, the official said. The airplane, which was 23 years old, had undergone regularly scheduled maintenance last week, just two days before the crash. The FDR showed the airplane's engines and other systems all were working fine up to the moment of impact, according to the AP. The report also said the climb and subsequent dive lasted about one minute, and the aircraft hit the ground at about 280 mph, according to the AP.

[slowstream]

1900 and 2500 hours for the crew of a 737!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Ru ... 987-1.html

Really? 2500 hrs for the Capt I am assuming, really? OMG!

I don't mean to be disrespectful of the dead, but only in Russia comes to mind.

I'm not sure what the laws are like in Russia but I hope the families can and do take the management and owners to court, strip them of their company, all of their cash and asset's, plus a preverbal strip off their backside before their thrown in the Gulag!

[ReserveTank]

I'm confused. Everyone here is so sensitive about the YRL Metro crash, but I see some rather speculative and insulting posting about this Russian crash.

Really? 2500 hrs for the Capt I am assuming, really? OMG!

I don't mean to be disrespectful of the dead, but only in Russia comes to mind.

I'm not sure what the laws are like in Russia but I hope the families can and do take the management and owners to court, strip them of their company, all of their cash and asset's, plus a preverbal strip off their backside before their thrown in the Gulag!

Only in NWO comes to my mind frequently. We've had our fair share of flying airplanes right into the dirt too.
If we have to make a speculation thread about Bearskin's latest botched approach, then we'll have to do one for this Russian crash.
You can't just decide to be sensitive about Canadians that you like...it's an entire industry made of people.

[CpnCrunch]

1900 and 2500 hours for the crew of a 737!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Ru ... 987-1.html

Really? 2500 hrs for the Capt I am assuming, really? OMG!

So if you've anything less than, say, 6000 hours then you'll automatically drive the 737 into the ground when you do a missed approach?

[Doc]

I can't help thinking of the rocket scientist at the wheel of the South West 737 in ( I think NWK?). We don't do go-a rounds here......SPLAT
Nothing wrong with 2500 hours.....if they're the RIGHT hours.
Air France doesn't chime in any higher on my "not too well trained pilot" list....
Wouldn't a 735 have TOGA and auto throttles? Let the "machine" do what it was designed to do. Why would you hand fly a missed?

[Donald]

Wouldn't a 735 have TOGA and auto throttles? Let the "machine" do what it was designed to do. Why would you hand fly a missed?

Only on a dual channel approach?

[cncpc]

Caught on CCTV, looks like a complete nose dive?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1384773205

There looks to be an explosion about 100 feet off the ground.

[Diadem]

Caught on CCTV, looks like a complete nose dive?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b12_1384773205

There looks to be an explosion about 100 feet off the ground.

I don't know what you were looking at, but I saw the beacon flashing. You can also see the beacon's reflection on the ground at the beginning of the video before the aircraft comes into frame.

[Doc]

Wouldn't a 735 have TOGA and auto throttles? Let the "machine" do what it was designed to do. Why would you hand fly a missed?

Only on a dual channel approach?

Yup. You need to be on an ILS with two autopilots....I don't know the type of approach here?

[Donald]

You need to be on an ILS with two autopilots....I don't know the type of approach here?

You don't "need" to use both autopilots on an ILS approach, however it is preferable just for the fact that a go around is fully coupled.

Going from the info that this go around was initiated due to an un-stabilized approach in regards to altitude, I will speculate that a single channel approach was flown. Most likely the localizer was captured, and the pilot was attempting to capture the glideslope from above using vertical speed. When it was decided that a stabilized approach was not possible, a go around was initiated.

On a single channel go around, pushing the TOGA switch will disconnect the autopilot and auto throttle, and the flight director will command approx 15 degrees nose up. The pilots then manually selected GA thrust, over rotated, and over controlled the pitch recovery into the ground.

Lots of speculation and a few assumptions about the -500 there, feel free to flame away or correct me.

[Gino Under]

It is a flawed notion that hours = experience and experience = hours. What should be better appreciated is the kinds of aircraft and in what kinds of flight operations was that experienced gained. The simple claiming of 2500 hours total time is actually meaningless. Other than to conclude both likely held ATPLs there is nothing else to conclude except they were likely type rated in the B737-500.

That said, I personally don't assume the go-around switches were pressed.
If not, the FD would still be commanding LOC and GS tracking.
Was the aircraft being manually flown? That hasn't been established yet. If it were and the thrust were advanced to maximum, underwing mounted engines would have caused the aircraft to pitch up.
In the confusion or panic that likely followed, (especially the shouting) the PF might have tried to aggressively follow the FD, which could likely have been a GS command. Thus, the nose down attitude at impact.

It's an interesting country, Russia.
Did you know, for example, when a crew completes a go-around they are arrested when they land. Given a medical examination and placed in jail while accident investigators complete their investigation into why the go-around was necessary?

Maybe buying the farm was the easy way out.

Gino Under

[GRK]

Hi Gino,

I'm not going to comment on the accident, there's already plenty of expert investigators doing that for us on this site. What I will comment on is your claim of pilots being arrested for a Go Around in Russia. Not so sure you have the right information here. On several occasions in more than one ex Soviet run country ( mostly ending in "something "stan) we have had to go around for a few reasons, weather, ATC, and in one case traffic ignoring clear instructions in both Russian and English... I and my crew are still free to walk the earth and can still get visas allowing us back in! I would be very interested in more information from you when you get a chance. Cheers!
GRK
PS: I did see a Russian B737 crew arrested in a nasty northern Pakistani airport after they entered the hold between levels (500 foot separation instead of 1000) turn the wrong way in that same hold, and break off out of sequence and land…he was 500 feet below us and his RT was textbook ICAO standard, just not his handling. We landed safely just in time to see the Captain being frogmarched down the air stairs by the collar of his shirt and the back of his pants by several Pakistani Military personnel…I sometimes wonder what happened to those bad boys!

[Eric Janson]

Wouldn't a 735 have TOGA and auto throttles? Let the "machine" do what it was designed to do. Why would you hand fly a missed?

Unfortunately the 737 series still has a lot of 1950's technology incorporated into it. All to keep a single rating for all models.

I have flown the -300 (3900 hours) and if flown correctly it is a very nice/straightforward aircraft to fly.

The problems start if you let it get away from you - then it can bite you very hard.

On a single autopilot approach any go-around had to be manually flown as selecting GA mode disconnected the Autopilot. Increasing the thrust causes a pitch up moment. Large thrust changes will generate large changes in pitch.

One push of the GA buttons caused a reduced GA thrust to be selected giving a 2000'/min rate of climb. A second push gave full GA thrust. Full GA thrust in a lightly loaded aircraft will generate a massive pitch up moment. If you are not quick enough pushing the nose down (with both hands pushing hard while you re-trim) pitch angle will quickly go over 20 degrees nose up.

Older model 737s would not allow Autopilot engagement if the flight directors were not centered.

It will be interesting to read the final report.

[Gino Under]

GRK
update

In light of the fact you're "free to walk the earth", I would conclude you are not a Russian pilot with a Russian licence flying for a Russian operator.
Would that conclusion be reasonable?

If you ARE a Russian pilot it would be nice to know how you managed to avoid detention and the investigations?
Maybe things have changed?

While I've certainly been wrong before, (and stand to be corrected) it would be great to have an update. Meanwhile, I'll go back to my source.

Gino

[GRK]

Hi Gino,

Yup, nailed it, not a Russian pilot, not flying on a Russian Licence , or flying a Russian airplane…not hard to tell is it? Just passing on my experiences flying in the Rodina. Still don't see your source here, all I did was wonder where you might have seen it? Anyway, I'm sure this could slide into a drift so if you can tell me, I'd be interested. In addition to my flying job, I am a HFCRM instructor and would really be interested in finding out more.
Thanks,

GRK

[JDW]

Reports that one of the pilots might have had a fake license.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/06 ... e-licence/

MOSCOW — The Russian pilot who sent a Boeing 737 into a near-vertical dive, killing all 50 people on board, might have had a fake licence, investigators said Friday.

Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin said his team believes that some pilots working for small regional airlines in Russia have not been properly trained but managed to get fake licences in centres certified by the country’s aviation agency.

Markin said the pilot who sent the Boeing 737 into a dive after an aborted first landing attempt in the city of Kazan had received his licence from a small training centre that has since been shut down.

Related
Russian plane in fatal crash was 'practically vertical' as it fell, officials say, as both black boxes found
Russian plane crash near Kazan kills 50: official
His investigators were conducting searches at the aviation agency and elsewhere for documents relating to such centres. He did not give a specific number of centres his team considered questionable but at least two ones were shut down — where the captain and co-pilot of the crashed plane had trained.

No criminal charges have been filed yet in the Nov. 17 crash of the Tatarstan Airlines jet in Kazan, 720 kilometres east of Moscow. Industry experts say, however, that early results of the crash probe pointed at a pilot error possibly resulting from the crew’s insufficient skills in handling the plane.



Markin said the captain of the crashed jet, Rustem Salikhov, had previously served as a navigator and had allegedly been trained to fly Boeing planes.

“[But] investigators have certain doubts about whether the captain of the crashed Boeing had indeed received training there,” Markin said.

Russia’s federal aviation regulator, Rosaviatsiya, said it was investigating to check the legitimacy of all pilots’ licenses issued at the training centre mentioned by Markin and at other similar facilities.

HO/AFP/Getty Images
HO/AFP/Getty ImagesEmergency personnel working at the crash site
Agency chief Alexander Neradko said the centres had been created to help fill the shortage of pilots but acknowledged that some of them were later shut down because of flaws.

Soviet-made airliners typically had crews of four, including a navigator and a flight engineer in addition to two pilots, unlike the more computerized Western planes that long have switched to crews consisting of two pilots.

Russia began to experience a severe shortage of flight personnel in recent years as veteran crew retired and the number of passengers swelled thanks to an oil-driven economic growth.

At the same time, an increasing number of Russian carriers dropped Soviet-made Tupolev and Ilyushin planes, opting for more fuel-efficient yet complicated Boeings and Airbuses.

Roman Kruchinin / AFP / Getty Images
Roman Kruchinin / AFP / Getty ImagesFlowers and toys lay at a list of the recent plane crash victims in the international airport of Russia's Volga city of Kazan on November 18, 2013. The list's title reads: 'We remember and grieve'
To help ease the crew shortage, aviation officials set up centres to train navigators and flight engineers to serve as pilots of Western-made planes. Critics said that carriers often sought to cut corners on training in the run for profits.

The Moscow-based Interstate Aviation Committee, which investigates plane crashes across the former Soviet Union, have concluded that the crew failed to land on their first attempt, brought the plane into a steep climb that caused it to stall, then fatally overcompensated.

The report was based on the data retrieved from the plane’s flight data recorder, which also showed that its engines and other systems were working fine until the plane slammed into the ground.

Investigators have yet to release data from the cockpit conversation recorder.

[MIQ]

What seems interesting to me too is that the Co-Pilot had exactly 150 hours before moving onto the 737. I don't know the russian aviation regulations at all but I would imagine that those are the bare minimums to get your CPL. So at some point they must have had 737s flying around with a captain with, hopefully, +2.000 hours and a Co-Pilot with less than 200 hours...

[pdw]

Is there the proper name available (a correct terminology) for this variety of accident ?

The airliner noses up inadvertantly too much here ... while (understood to be) in a process where a steady approach turned into an overshoot procedure. Not like the one in Iraq on youtube where the cargo airliner stalls due to the load shift ... but looks like a similar result