Hour building, Canada - UPDATED

[Style]

Hi everyone,

I have been reading other topics regarding the same question - i just want a updated version.

At the moment I am doing my ATPL-theory in Europe. I have decided, together with 5-6 friends, to build hours in either Canada or USA.

I would LOVE to hear some of the positive and negative things about building hours in Canada? Is it possible to rent planes for a longer time ect?

Also, if anyone are in contact with any schools/plane rentals, or have been building hours in Canada, i would really want to hear from you.

We wont nessesaryly be choosing the same flight school - unless we find something we really like.

Kinds Regards,
J

[bushhopper]

LOL, is credit to cheap in Europe?

[Iliopolus_1]

You need to think a little further ahead unless of course you have a job guaranteed before you get your licences and ratings.

The USA may be a little cheaper but you have a good selection of cheap used aircraft in which to buy and then sell after you do your hours, thats the cheapest way, or take a share in an aircraft or, look for block time.

Both systems have excellent flight training, and at the end you can convert one to the other if you are interested in CAnadian and USA licences.

Flying in both countries will give you a variety of experiences..
If you want to find work, you need to plan ahead and figure out if you wish to instruct or just fly...

[Colonel Sanders]

positive and negative things about building hours in Canada?

Spend a little time with google, researching the climate
of where you want to go. You probably want good VFR
wx most of the time.

I might humbly opine that because of the limitless amount
of moisture available from the ocean, that you be careful
about the east and west ocean coasts of North America,
which can manufacture endless amounts of rain and fog.
And snow. One of my daughters is in Newfoundland at
the moment - check out the forecast:

http://weather.gc.ca/city/pages/nl-41_metric_e.html

Similar to the coasts, the Great Lakes can manufacture a
lot of IFR wx as well. Fantastic sources of moisture.

You will die in the Rocky Mountains in a little airplane. Don't
go there.

So, where does that leave us? Central North America.

I might point out that winter in Canada and the USA midwest
is unbelievably cold and hostile. Don't go there in December,
Jan, Feb. March can produce FEET of snowfall.

April, May, June are generally nice, but too many bugs.

July and August are bloody hot. Like living in an oven,
worse down south.

September, October are quite nice. November can be
iffy - see "The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw


I hope this helps a little bit. North America (Canada
and the USA) is a giant GA playground. Spend time
in both! Compared to Europe, you simply won't believe
the freedom and open spaces that we enjoy here.

PS Stay the hell away from big airports unless you
like a linguistic challenge. If you fly in the USA, learn
what a TFR is.

[digits_]

Do you just want to build hours ? Or are you planning to move/work in Canada ?

If it's just to build hours, I would suggest to rent the plane in the US. Much cheaper, but beware, the quality of the plane might be less as well. Make sure you get what you pay for. You can fly in Canada with a USA airplane (if the plane owner does some paperwork, shouldn't be too hard or too expensive).

Regarding the "big airports": small/medium sized airports are a real treat to land on, especially in the USA. But, landing fees are (almost) always low in comparison with Europe, so squeezing a big one into your trip might be fun as well. The fuel will be very expensive though. But nobody says you have to refuel at such a place.

Enjoy ! And prepare to be scanned for nuclear weapons when crossing the border between Canada and the USA. Tip: they'll only scan in one direction. You may guess which one

[Colonel Sanders]

Let's say you're going to Jacksonville, FL. You might
think you should land at KJAX but instead I might suggest
you land at the "executive" or "GA" airport KCRG (Craig).
Watch out for the towers.

Pull up Google maps and punch in KJAX KCRG.

Now let's say you're going to Ft Lauderdale, FL. You
might think that you want to go to KFLL but in fact
KFXE is a much better choice for a little airplane. Great
pilot shop there. I wrote the IFP at KFXE back in
the 90's when I was living there and got my FAR 61.75
FAA COMM-SMEL-IA.

Anyways. Spot the pattern?

[digits_]

Yes yes yes, there are lots of alternatives for small airplanes wich much better facilities aimed at small airplanes. All I am saying is, if you really want to land on some fat ass big airports that are unaffordable in Europe, the USA is the place to do it affordably. That's all.

For example: KJFK international would be around 125 USD according to airnav (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJFK/SHELTAIR)
Similar airport in Europe, Frankfurt international would cost you 600 EUR in a small plane.

So if you want to do that stuff, do it in the USA, not Europe. Have fun.

[Colonel Sanders]

Note that at a large airport, you can expect the FBO to
additionally have a ramp fee (eg $100 to $200). And
they probably won't even have 100LL (Jet-A only) so
after paying all that money, you can sit there, out of
gas.

I suppose you can try to borrow the crew van and go
to a big-box store and buy a bunch of 5 gallon plastic
gas jugs, and drive to a reliever airport which does
have 100LL, fill up the plastic jugs, drive back to the
large airport, refuel your airplane and give the FBO the
plastic gas jugs.

You guys in Europe have a strange idea of "fun". I
can think of a lot more fun that you could have with
a thousand bucks in a big city.

Anyways, digits, you don't think that I know very
much about aviation compared to you, and I'm willing
to admit that.

However, if you want to be "part of the team" and
fly a bugsmasher into a large airport, please do it with
at least 150 mph on approach (which I have done with
a 172 at night, into Pearson). As a more experienced pilot
than I, you will know why, and how to land out of such
an approach.

[digits_]

Note that at a large airport, you can expect the FBO to
additionally have a ramp fee (eg $100 to $200). And
they probably won't even have 100LL (Jet-A only) so
after paying all that money, you can sit there, out of
gas.

From the airnav website (link: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJFK/SHELTAIR )

Fuel prices as last reported on 19-Nov-2013
100LL Avgas Full service $7.942 Reported by the FBO
Jet A Full service $7.58 Reported by the FBO

Ramp fee from the FBO is waived if you buy 7 gallons of fuel. Might be wise to call in advance to check it. And even with another 75$ ramp fee, it is still only a third of the costs in Europe.

[Beefitarian]

Hi, I'm from the old days. I don't remember the numbers but they waived the parking fee when I bought a full tank of fuel at DCA back in 1995. Everyone warned me the fuel there was expensive. Turned out to be several cents extra per gallon. I was more upset that the hotel was $100 per night instead of the 40 or less we paid everywhere else.

If I went now I'd find the close small airport to save money but I certainly don't regret spending a little extra then. I got to fly a Warrior II somewhere you're not allowed to go anymore. It was terrific.

There are probably big airports in the middle of the US&A that have pretty low landing fees. The guys I flew with near LA kept warning me not to land on Catalina Island because of the landing fee. It was $20.

Decide where you want to go. Find out if there is a landing fee and decide if it's worth the cost to you. Just because I don't love Toronto does not mean other people would not enjoy paying extra to be able to land there once.

Have fun.

[Shiny Side Up]

Do you remember when it was free to land at CYYC? Ah, the good ol' days when the world was more GA friendly. A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, when I got my initial IFR we used to go do approaches there after hours, and periodically do a few touch and goes in the dark. When you needed a break, you'd stop and taxi over to the Shell, have a coffee, maybe a choclate bar if you remembered to bring change for the machine. Sit and watch the big planes, I remember watching this giant shadow land and it when it taxied by it was the Big Antonov. Neat stuff. The go practice more approaches. The people at the Shell used to be happy to see you. Last time I was there a surly rampie made sure he met us at the door with his "ramp fee" even before we asked for gas. That was about eight years ago now. These days the total cost of that adventure would be up around $500 bucks with all the fees, more than it even costs to rent the airplane to do it.

Big airports aren't places for small airplanes anymore, unless you have a lot of cash that for some reason you feel you need to burn.

[Beefitarian]

I remember there being more schools at YYC than YBW. I also remember being told to stay far away from their class C airspace because the other students would get in trouble for breaking altitude restrictions.

I know someone who keeps his 182 there still. Fairly long story.

[Colonel Sanders]

Big airports aren't places for small airplanes anymore

Exactly. On occasion, I will fly into a large airport
with a "f__k you, I'm shouldering my way in" attitude
that ironically is extremely unpopular here.

Fly fast - throttles all the way forward - and talk faster.
Try to get a speed reduction form ATC for the kerosene
burners in front. Enemy territory.

But as you point out, it's insanely expensive these
days, by the time you pay the airport fee, the NavCan
fee, the $200 ramp fee, etc. You are not welcome.
I need a very good reason to go there - with someone
else paying, generally.

I'd rather fly to a smaller airport that actually wants
my business, instead of taxing me to stay away.

[Shiny Side Up]

And they want you to stay far away as well. I fight about a dozen landing fees a year for places I didn't land at, but merely passed by. Pictures or it didn't hapen. The most amusing/frustrating was the one that claimed the mighty Cessna 180 seated ten people and weighed in over 6000lbs. Especially being explained this by someone who's sole knowledge of aircraft consisted of googling the type after a registration search. Last year I withstood a lengthy tirade about how someone didn't feel it was his job to serve little airplanes, all for the trouble of requesting to work in the airspace. Not sure how it matters to ATC what size of airplane I am. Now I get paid to put up with this kind of shit and abuse, or I don't do it. Not sure why someone would want to do it for fun or the "experience".

[Beefitarian]

I liked the time I was inbound and the nice ATC guy asked. "Could I get you to get your speed up?" I told him, I'll try but I don't know how much faster I can go here. "Say again type?"

[digits_]

Not sure why someone would want to do it for fun or the "experience".

Two reasons.

1) As a PPL, when you land your C150/C172 on a runway that is longer than your ceiling altitude and wider than your takeoff distance for the first time by yourself, it leaves an impression. When I got taxi instructions to "follow the 737" or when another big jet needed to "hold position, cessna 172 on final", I realised for the very first time we all share the same sky. And I was proud, and very impressed as well. Might have been childish, but I am definately not the only PPL who felt that way. I heard similar stories from my pilot friends. It made you dream again, and also realise you had already fulfilled a rather big chunk of yoru dreams. Maybe the experienced pilots need to think back to the time they started their flying career.
Big delays and lots of paperwork and security hassle might be annoying if you need to land on JFK/Toronto/Schiphol/Brussels every day. But as a fresh PPL, you actually cherish these things. They are part of the game, and make it even more real and fun, as strange as it may sound.
Don't forget, for a lot of pilots -and probably all PPLs-, that's as cool or as "real" or "airline-like" as it gets.

2) A more practical one. If you "survive" such a busy airspace, you will never ever be hesitant/"afraid" to use the radio again. You will gain much more self-confidence and radio-maturity. I also find the controllers of said airports very accomodating, all depending of the time of day of course. There will always be exceptions, but soo far I usually have worse experiences with controllers at regional airports who *think* that they are working at a major international airport instead of those who actually *are* working there.

*Disclaimer: based on airports in the USA and Europe

[Colonel Sanders]

you actually cherish these things

To each their own. I suppose there are people
who eagerly look forward to their prostate gland
checks every 6 months, too

You want fun? I rather enjoy 400 knots below
50 feet. Talking dreams? Well, sometime I'd
like 800 knots below 50 feet

To me, an airliner is about as romantic as a bus,
but to each their own, I guess.

[digits_]

You want fun? I rather enjoy 400 knots below
50 feet. Talking dreams? Well, sometime I'd
like 800 knots below 50 feet

Okay, good for you. How can a PPL do this in an affordable way as a PIC ?

[photofly]

When I got taxi instructions to "follow the 737" or when another big jet needed to "hold position, cessna 172 on final", I realised for the very first time we all share the same sky.

It's funny but when a big jet was told to "hold position, cessna 172 on final" for me, all I could think was that I had better make it look easy because 200 people were watching.

[Colonel Sanders]

How can a PPL do this in an affordable way as a PIC?

How good of a scrounger are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darryl_Greenamyer
built his own F-104 out of spare parts and set
the world low-altitude top speed record in a
civilian aircraft. Which still stands.

On October 24, 1977, Greenamyer, flying a modified F-104 Starfighter "Red Baron" (N104RB), set a FAI Class C-1 Group III 3 km speed record of 988.26 mph, which still stands. An earlier attempt on October 2, 1976 yielded a higher time (1,010 mph), but one timing camera didn't work on one run, meaning the record couldn't be certified.

He built the Starfighter by collecting and putting together a myriad of parts over a 13 year period. The cockpit side panels and some control column bearings of the Red Baron came from the very first production F-104A, which crashed in Palmdale, California 22 years earlier. The tail of the Red Baron, minus stabilizers, came from a junkyard in Ontario, California. The stabilizers and some nose wheel parts were from scrap piles in Tucson and Homestead, Florida. The idler arm for the elevator controls, the ejection seat rails and some electrical relays came from an F-104 that crashed and burned at Edwards Air Force Base on the edge of the Mojave Desert. Greenamyer got his throttle quadrant from a Tennessee flying buff he met at the Reno National Air Races. The trunnion mounts for the nose gear, some of the cooling-system valves and a few relays on the Red Baron came from a 25-ton pile of junk that Greenamyer bought at Eglin Air Force Base. In a swap with NASA, he obtained the nose of a Lockheed NF-104A, with its reaction controls. The all-important J79-GE-10 engine was obtained from the US Navy

1000 statute mph below 50 feet would be a pretty cool club to join.

Maybe not as cool as taxiing behind a 737, but still, pretty cool.

[Shiny Side Up]

1) As a PPL, when you land your C150/C172 on a runway that is longer than your ceiling altitude and wider than your takeoff distance for the first time by yourself, it leaves an impression.

The point is though there's lots of big airports out there where you can experience this without the hassle. The underused CYEG comes to mind. Some big places are more friendly than others, and if you really need to get your jollies in such a fashion it pays to look around. for instance I believe its cheaper to rent a plane at CYBW, fly to CYEG, pretend to be a big airplane and then fly back than it is to fly from CYBW the short hop to CYYC and do the same thing due to all the fees they're going to ding you with. Better yet, get into CYXH before its gone.

2) A more practical one. If you "survive" such a busy airspace, you will never ever be hesitant/"afraid" to use the radio again. You will gain much more self-confidence and radio-maturity.

This is a load of BS that instructors like to foster in a lot of students. If you really knew what was going on a pilot should quickly realise that they're in a more precarious postition in uncontrolled airspace. It would be a frickin' miracle if pilots could get their heads around of how little importance how good they sound on the radio is. Case in point. In controlled airspace you'll quickly find that no one does it perfect, not even the controllers, there will be probably a dozen or so minor screw ups an hour. No one does it the exact same, but it all just manages to happen. Uncontrolled airspace is such a disaster with the radio since everyone is too busy talking, not busy enough looking and thinking. Coddled by controllers.

Don't forget, for a lot of pilots -and probably all PPLs-, that's as cool or as "real" or "airline-like" as it gets.

Something I've never understood, but I'm aware that in the pilot world I'm in the minority in that I don't fantasize about being an airline guy. Not that I wouldn't mind flying a big Boeing, but given the choice I'd stick with an open cockpit Boeing.

You want fun? I rather enjoy 400 knots below
50 feet.

I rather enjoyed getting airborne today at under 40 knots in about 50 feet. It was off a big runway too, that was roughly 2640' wide.

[rob-air]

''1000 statute mph below 50 feet would be a pretty cool club to join.''

Not a club until someone joins him!

DO IT DO IT DO IT!

[Colonel Sanders]

Current land speed record is held by this guy:



He went supersonic - but still only 760 mph.

Odd that after all these years, still only three quarters
of the speed of an obsolete old airplane that first flew
50 years ago.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It would be a frickin' miracle if pilots could get their heads around of how little importance how good they sound on the radio is.

I can not agree with this statement. It is just as easy to teach good radio procedures as it is to let bad ones fester in students. Call a busy tower with a good concise report/request with all the right info and you are likely to get good service. Waste everyone's time with lots of umms and errs, unnecessary words and exchanges that turn into 20 questions and you get the inconvenient routing or just told that you can't enter the Class C airspace.

I see this all the time in the airspace around YVR and not for guys trying to go to CYVR, just pilots who want to transit the zone.

[Colonel Sanders]

PPL's desperately want to sound like this on the radio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkOi2AdjLw

Nobody cares that the best radio call has the minimum
number of syllables, compared to any other radio call
with more syllables, that all convey the same information.

Less is more. Don't tell us your life story. Where are
you, and what do you want to do?

Pressing a button and talking into a microphone is not
as difficult as low-time pilots try to make it. It's the
substance of the call, not the style of the call that matters.