Canada Jetlines

[Krimson]

Step aside Ryanair.

...“There isn’t an [ultra-low cost] model in Canada,” he added.

Vancouver’s Salman Partners Inc. is raising $100-million in financing for the launch of Jetlines, and Robson Capital Management is looking to raise an additional $25-million in seed money, Mr. Solloway said.

The airline will be modeled after successful ultra-low cost carriers like Ireland’s Ryanair, Allegiant Air and Spirit Airlines in the U.S., and Air Asia and Scoot Airlines in Asia, offering no-frills service for lower prices than its competitors.

Jetlines has already applied for an airline license to operate large aircraft in Canada, according to the Canadian Transportation Agency.

It has also negotiated landing slots in both Vancouver and other key airports in Western Canada, according to an investor briefing obtained by the Financial Post.

The plan calls for the airline to launch with two Airbus A319s in the summer of 2014, and expand to 16 aircraft by 2017 using a fleet of A319s and A320s. Jetlines has already hired about 25 people...

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/ ... rn-canada/

[longjon]

Do you think they will have trouble finding pilots to fly for them? We all know the answer don't we.

I do like the saying, 'race to the bottom'

[ZBBYLW]

Well let's all hope either a) they treat their employees well or b) this is a very short lived adventure...

[tdp19]

I talked to a guy who fly's for spirt airlines down in Florida and he said they are one of the best paying airlines in the U.S, and have a lot higher requirements than other airlines. I think they want 5000 hrs, with 1000 mpic, as oppose to delta or american using 1500 hrs as requirrments. I am not supporting Jetlines, but hopefully they will model their payscale off Spirt.

[YWGGuy]

Every one is sh!ting on Encore for paying King Air wages for a Q.. I hope I am wrong but I bet this outfit will probably want similar wages to fly a 320.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

With the seniority system in place in most airlines, high time jet captains who lost their jobs dues to the failure of the airline they were working for are often doomed to either finding work overseas or accepting a right seat at another airline at the bottom of the pay scale, often at one third of the salary they were earning in the job they lost (if not less). The only alternative to these two scenarios are start-ups such as Jetlines.
A new airline such as Jetlines will need experienced 320 captains and they will find them. I have heard from several such pilots who wanted to apply for the seasonal captain positions at Sunwing but were told that seasonal positions were for First Officers only. In reality, the Sunwing seasonal captain jobs are allocated in advance to foreign seasonal pilots. Canadians need not apply.

[Rogerdodger2]

Actually Gilles,
There are very strict clauses in the SW CBA that restrict seasonal Capt. In any capacity, Foreign or Canadian. Those clauses exist to keep the FOs who meet the requirements the first to be offered the left seat before seasonal contractors or foreigners. You have a copy of the contract, read it. If your going to slam SW every time you come on this site at least put out all the info not just what suites your cause.

[Takeoff OK]

I talked to a guy who fly's for spirt airlines down in Florida and he said they are one of the best paying airlines in the U.S, and have a lot higher requirements than other airlines. I think they want 5000 hrs, with 1000 mpic, as oppose to delta or american using 1500 hrs as requirrments. I am not supporting Jetlines, but hopefully they will model their payscale off Spirt.

^ ^ ^ Absolute crap. ^ ^ ^

Either he was pulling your leg, or he has no idea what the legacy requirements and pay scales really are in the US. Spirit pays okay, sure, but they are no comparison to the mainline carriers.

Sorry if I'm bursting anyone's bubble of blissful ignorance here.

[897]

Race to the bottom.....if they are charging half of what everyone else is for a ticket they have to make up for that somehow.

[TheStig]

Do you think they will have trouble finding pilots to fly for them? We all know the answer don't we.

I do like the saying, 'race to the bottom'

Should be irrelevant, the real question is who would be stupid enough to invest $1 in this venture, yet alone $100 million? This is WestJets playground, and it's not a very big one. I really don't understand this? The capital markets should be investing these funds into carriers that actually stand a chance of staying solvent, instead they're going to watch as tens of millions of dollars get flushed down the toilet, and then complain about the volatility of the airline market and never invest in it again.

2 Major flaws:
-This venture is at least 5 years too late to the party. Air Canada and WestJet have already taken huge step to reduce their own cost structures. Air Canada rouge has a 1.5 year head start (and it will still have a tough time competing with WJ in the western Canadian Vacation market. WJ Encore will simply eat Canada Jetlines' lunch on any on any shorter range sectors in the west with their Q400 and it's lower operating costs?. Do these intrepid airline visionaries really think there is some big untapped or under serviced market to Prince George? Or that AC and WJ are already deriving huge revenue from ancilliary revenue. The article makes it sound like they're about to discover something neither airline is already doing.

-The reason Canada doesn't have a Ryanair or Allegant already is simple. The industry in Canada isn't structured to be low cost, airlines are burdened with high airport improvement fees, NavCanada fees, landing fees, Air Travellers Security fees, extra taxes on jet fuel. The EU and USA have both proven to be lucrative markets for LCC's because they offer large populations with few obstructions to travellers. Think about it? SouthWest has over 500 aircraft and doesn't leave the USA. If this model worked in Canada, Jetsgo would have 200+ aircraft.

[Xander]

I wonder if guys will have to front their TR...

[AirSprint HR]

For more on Spirit and the ULCC business model...

http://commons.erau.edu/jaaer/vol23/iss1/6/

Not saying this new venture will be successful, but do not underestimate the model.

AirSprint HR (although this has nothing to do with AirSprint. Maybe I need another profile.)

[Jack In The Box]

I talked to a guy who fly's for spirt airlines down in Florida and he said they are one of the best paying airlines in the U.S, and have a lot higher requirements than other airlines. I think they want 5000 hrs, with 1000 mpic, as oppose to delta or american using 1500 hrs as requirrments. I am not supporting Jetlines, but hopefully they will model their payscale off Spirt.

^ ^ ^ Absolute crap. ^ ^ ^

Either he was pulling your leg, or he has no idea what the legacy requirements and pay scales really are in the US. Spirit pays okay, sure, but they are no comparison to the mainline carriers.

Sorry if I'm bursting anyone's bubble of blissful ignorance here.

Not crap at all. Spirit pilots are some of the happiest in the industry. I know many that are not willing to leave for any US major.

The system and model, if done right, can work. If not Spirit, then ask SWA or JetBlue.

[Takeoff OK]

I talked to a guy who fly's for spirt airlines down in Florida and he said they are one of the best paying airlines in the U.S, and have a lot higher requirements than other airlines. I think they want 5000 hrs, with 1000 mpic, as oppose to delta or american using 1500 hrs as requirrments. I am not supporting Jetlines, but hopefully they will model their payscale off Spirt.

^ ^ ^ Absolute crap. ^ ^ ^

Either he was pulling your leg, or he has no idea what the legacy requirements and pay scales really are in the US. Spirit pays okay, sure, but they are no comparison to the mainline carriers.

Sorry if I'm bursting anyone's bubble of blissful ignorance here.

Not crap at all. Spirit pilots are some of the happiest in the industry. I know many that are not willing to leave for any US major.

The system and model, if done right, can work. If not Spirit, then ask SWA or JetBlue.

I'm not saying they aren't happy. I'm saying that Spirit is neither one of the best paying airlines (compared to the big boys -- including Southwest), nor do they have hiring mins than are truly any higher than what the legacies are looking for. The post I replied to (as a result) is exactly what I called it -- absolute crap.

As to your friends at Spirit: Saying they wouldn't consider leaving to go to the majors is a statement that is based on many many factors. I guarantee you every single one of them was shooting for the majors at some point. Regardless, saying any group of pilots is happier than any other group of pilots is pointless. I bet you that the majority of the DAL, Southwest, UAL and AA pilots are just as happy as your Spirit friends; and either currently do, or eventually will, enjoy far better compensation than them.

This is sort of a pointless discussion drift, though, because this new piece of sh*t upstart will not offer compensation anywhere near to even the Spirit scales. I hope they never make it out of the blocks.

[spm]

The Spirit pilot group had to push hard to achieve the wage rates they have today in the form of a strike not that long ago. They were allowed to shut it down until an agreement was reached to be paid closer to industry rates.

Encore/SKY/Jetline pilots will have to do the same if they want to improve their wages and working conditions.

[Takeoff OK]

The Spirit pilot group had to push hard to achieve the wage rates they have today in the form of a strike not that long ago. They were allowed to shut it down until an agreement was reached to be paid closer to industry rates.

Encore/SKY/Jetline pilots will have to do the same if they want to improve their wages and working conditions.

To the first paragraph: Absolutely correct. Luckily, they were small enough that the feds didn't play the RLA card. The result was an extremely rare and significant improvement for their pilots on many issues. That situation, by the way, brought to light the issue of scabs in its appropriate context, unlike many of the times that word has been thrown around by some on this forum with no justification whatsoever.

As to the second paragraph: Striking takes not only a government that will keep its dirty little hands out of the issue (not likely with Harper and Co.), but also a group with the balls to actually do it.

How about this: Don't apply to this sham of an airline. Christ, I'm surprised Leblanc isn't involved with it, for once.

[Krimson]

-The reason Canada doesn't have a Ryanair or Allegant already is simple. The industry in Canada isn't structured to be low cost, airlines are burdened with high airport improvement fees, NavCanada fees, landing fees, Air Travellers Security fees, extra taxes on jet fuel. The EU and USA have both proven to be lucrative markets for LCC's because they offer large populations with few obstructions to travellers. Think about it? SouthWest has over 500 aircraft and doesn't leave the USA. If this model worked in Canada, Jetsgo would have 200+ aircraft.

That is very true. The population size just is not here for it to be sustainable. I could see it working for a few years though, just long enough to show the public lower ticket prices are possible, you can go YVR to YYC for under $100 all in. What happens then? The best thing would be for both WJE and ACR to hold their prices to at least what they are now and wait it out.

[EA757]

Spirit Airlines.

Please scroll to the Pilots Payscale

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... t_airlines

[Takeoff OK]

Spirit Airlines.

Please scroll to the Pilots Payscale

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... t_airlines

Delta:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... _air_lines

AA:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... n_airlines

United:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... d_airlines

Southwest:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... t_airlines

[GRK]

Isn't the Road To Hell littered with good intentions? I wish Canada Jetlines all the luck in the world, they'll need it. (been there done that, it's seriously hard work) Taxes and fees alone alone will kill the thing.
Question: Why are you guys comparing a US carrier (Spirit) as well as other US pay structures to any Canadian startup pay? No one has even mentioned a pay scale here and the nay sayers are crying "race to the bottom". Wait and see before you bitch about it.

[JAHinYYC]

I've always loved this quote whenever people start talking about airline startups...

“If a capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk back in the early 1900s, he should have shot Orville Wright. He would have saved his progeny money. But seriously, the airline business has been extraordinary. It has eaten up capital over the past century like almost no other business because people seem to keep coming back to it and putting fresh money in. You’ve got huge fixed costs, you’ve got strong labor unions and you’ve got commodity pricing. That is not a great recipe for success. I have an 800 (free call) number now that I call if I get the urge to buy an airline stock. I call at two in the morning and I say: ‘My name is Warren and I’m an aeroholic.’ And then they talk me down.”

Warren Buffett, Chairman, Berkshire Hathaway, London Telegraph Interview 2002

[berta']

Isn't the Road To Hell littered with good intentions? I wish Canada Jetlines all the luck in the world, they'll need it. (been there done that, it's seriously hard work) Taxes and fees alone alone will kill the thing.
Question: Why are you guys comparing a US carrier (Spirit) as well as other US pay structures to any Canadian startup pay? No one has even mentioned a pay scale here and the nay sayers are crying "race to the bottom". Wait and see before you bitch about it.

Have you not seen the recent pay scale trend in this industry? Encore, Sky regional, Rouge.. I don't think Canada Jetlines pay will be anything to write home about. I'm thinking 40 grand for a 319 FO there... sweeeeeet.

[Johnny#5]

40 grand for FO??? ... Maybe the Captain!

[berta']

40 grand for FO??? ... Maybe the Captain!

My mistake. You're absolutely right.

[Gino Under]

The key to success for any new entrant is the chosen aircraft type.

The A319 will be the kiss of death for this outfit even before it gets off the ground simply based on 319 DOCs.

Debating unknown pilot salaries at this proposed outfit is just a waste of intelligent discussion and nothing more.
Everyone knows "industry standard" pilot wages in Canada haven't changed in more than 30 years and most pilots in Canada (not all) don't seem to be smart enough to factor in inflation over those 30 years as evidenced by the number scrambling to get more information just to have a shot at a window seat at these insolent employers. Industry standard today simply isn't enough.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with outfits like this.

Gino Under