Alaska C208 Crash

[swervin]

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2347599994

[Heliian]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/troo ... d-21056018

non pay link with more details.

Why is Alaska so dangerous? Is it the "get er done" culture?

[Rowdy]

Brutal news. Condolences to those are ERA/Hageland

[MUSKEG]

Of course Helian you're presuming there is a " get her done culture" right?

[Jack In The Box]

I read in the Winnipeg Free Press that the ceilings were 300 feet and 1 mile vis. This makes me angry! You have to know they probably weren't flying IFR. Alaska is NOT a place you want to be f*king around in IMC (not that you'd want to anywhere else...).



RIP to those who died. The best to the injured.

[sky's the limit]

I read in the Winnipeg Free Press that the ceilings were 300 feet and 1 mile vis. This makes me angry! You have to know they probably weren't flying IFR. Alaska is NOT a place you want to be f*king around in IMC (not that you'd want to anywhere else...).



RIP to those who died. The best to the injured.

Have you ever flown in Alaska Jack? Yukon? Northern BC?

Just asking, because you seem to be drawing an awful lot of conclusions from a newspaper article, unless of course you know what flying there entails by experience.

FWIW, Class G Mimima: 1sm, clear of cloud.

stl

[Doc]

I read in the Winnipeg Free Press that the ceilings were 300 feet and 1 mile vis. This makes me angry! You have to know they probably weren't flying IFR. Alaska is NOT a place you want to be f*king around in IMC (not that you'd want to anywhere else...).



RIP to those who died. The best to the injured.

Have you ever flown in Alaska Jack? Yukon? Northern BC?

Just asking, because you seem to be drawing an awful lot of conclusions from a newspaper article, unless of course you know what flying there entails by experience.

FWIW, Class G Mimima: 1sm, clear of cloud.



stl

STL, I think he's referring to the fact that romping around, maintaining VFR in 300 and 1, is a piss poor idea anywhere? Of course, his source of weather may be less than gospel....that said, these accidents don't tend to happen in good VFR weather.

[2R]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... e/3795197/


Describes conditions similar to freezing fog, low ceilings, poor visibility and freezing drizzle fog conditions.
There is no shame in turning around in such conditions boys and girls. I have seen some hairy assed bastards run away from fighting freezing precipitation and fog.

Knowing when to say NO can take a lifetime.

[xsbank]

"Megan Peters, a spokeswoman for the Alaska State Troopers, said the airplane would have been flying in freezing rain with a mile of visibility and a 300-foot (100-meter) ceiling. Lamont described conditions as ice fog with moisture that stuck to vehicles."



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Plane+ ... z2mFAeJ7Ul

You can blather on about "git 'er done" and northern conditions all you want, but freezing rain? Sorry, but nothing that flies should have been there and a Caravan is probably the worst choice of any aircraft to have been out in it.

[Koalemos]

There is a *huge* difference between 300-1 on a summer day and 300-1 in freezing precip, especially in a 208. One can be done safety, the other cannot.

Initial reports seem to indicate it's the latter, however, it will take time to get a full accident report so jumping to conclusions is unwarranted.

[MUSKEG]

Geez STL who peed in your cornflakes. Every time there's an accident ya"ll jump on your soap boxes and holler away. People including pilots do stupid stuff. We can't legislate nor educate accidents out of existence. They are a fact of life. Doesn't mean you throw your hands in the air and stop trying but they are gonna happen. Accidents are never planned. There is nothing to be gained by pounding ones chest and being judgemental. This is no more tragic than all the people killed by drunk drivers last night. Preventable yes, stoppable? not so sure.

[esp803]

I've spent the vast majority of my thus short career flying in the Yukon, and a good chunk of that is on a Caravan. I make it a point to be IFR if the ceilings allow me to, unfortunately this is not the case most of the time. Now granted I don't like ".. running" in a caravan, they go to fast and the vis is terrible compared to the dehavilland line of aircraft. That being said they are quite capable and are able to operate safely at VFR mins in the mountains in the winter. Always leaving yourself an out... or 2... or 3 is key. If you are at VFR mins, an empty King Air won't out climb most of the "boxed Canyons" let alone a Caravan.

I don't think there is enough information out at this point to jump to conclusions about the pilots decision to fly, or why the crew and passengers fate ended so tragically. If there is Freezing Precip in a GFA for example generally it's not the entire area, and they are not always 100% accurate, but you have to leave yourself a way out if it does come down to freezing precip. These outs are harder to leave yourself in an underpowered aircraft like a caravan and even harder in the mountains. Personally I think that ALL operators that fly Caravans in the mountains should upgrade them to either the Blackhawk or the Garrett. I've flown both, and they are both infinitely safer in these sort of conditions. Now that Blackhawk has the IFR approval and Texas Turbine is gunning for it as well there is no reason not to do it.

For those who have not operated around Alaska... the weather changes rapidly, the mountains are BIG and STEEP, it's the only place I've ever seen 40-50kt winds in FOG... you get coastal weather combined with mountain waves combined with ice... It can get miserable, and change in a heart beat. I will be following this accident to see what comes once it's investigated properly.

E

[xsbank]

STL, thank you for your cranky response, go have a cup of coffee and get back to us.

Freezing rain? Nobody flies when there is freezing rain. Or, perhaps if that is not true, how bad does it have to get before you say no?

Just because it is Alaska doesn't mean you should push harder. Alaska means you should NOT push as hard, unless you do all your decision making with a butcher's bill.

Yes, this is speculation based on a newspaper report. No, I wasn't there. Git 'er done just kills too many people and is a poor excuse for professionalism. We got in and nobody died. Great gamble, when you wager babies lives. Sorry, I just happen to believe that you aren't supposed to die at work, nor are the people entrusted to your care.

How many of you scared yourselves spitless so far this winter? Did you learn a lesson? Did you make a pact with yourself to not do it again? Did you break any rules? Next time you go for a jaunt when you really shouldn't, take a look at each of your passengers and image killing or maiming them all - still want to go?

[CpnCrunch]

Lots of people spouting off ridiculous crap here. If you bother to actually look at the historical METARs you'll see that:

- weather at St Marys before they departed was overcast at 1200ft with 10SM visibility, temp M09/M33.
- ceiling dropped to 300ft with 1SM vis around the time of the accident
- it was at night
- there was no freezing rain or freezing fog at any time during the night according to the METARS.
- there is no TAF for that airport

(feel free to correct me if any of the above is in error).

So it seems the pilot probably made a reasonable decision to depart, but the weather suddenly changed. Perhaps he should have turned back, but maybe didn't realise.

Perhaps if you're flying at night in marginal VFR with passengers in the back, it might be worth spending a few bucks on synthetic vision or enhanced vision:

http://max-viz.com/2009/08/one-sky-avia ... x-viz-evs/

[Rookie50]

Night and very very marginal weather. Just saying'.

[Doc]

STL, you have your knickers well and truly in a knot today, but in my limited experience, 300 and 1 is NOT safe. I'm sort of gobsmacked to see you defending it here. In a 206, you can set down. In a 208, you can't. Any kind of emergency, or even the slightest distraction can result in a descent into terrain. This is a classic case of legal, not necessarily being safe.
Freezing rain aside, if you're flying a fixed wing aircraft, trying to maintain VFR, at 300 feet, you are not safe.

[xsbank]

Ok, I admit that I am sick to death of reading about dead people, killed the same way over and over by well-meaning pilots who have somehow lost the plot. I keep expecting us to get better, but as a group, we are more dangerous than Al Queda. Every time I read about another accident, another freezing rain, cfit, can't handle an engine failure, gear up, float dig, circling screw up, or flying a perfectly serviceable jet straight into the ground, I want to just scream. I want to slap the pilot, even though he's probably paid the ultimate price for his screw-up.

I think, because I am officially retired after 40 years of aviating, that I should stop reading and posting. STL will live longer and I can remove myself from the collection of people who appear to me to be more and more likely to be involved in someone's death. Some of you are never going to do that, but aviating into sh*tty little airstrips in the middle of the night with marginal aids and inadequate aircraft or not studying or not knowing your drills or not getting enough sleep or somehow being less than professional in your attitude may eventually be the death of even the best of you (remember how many of you thought it was OK to smoke up on your days off?).

I remember that before we used to launch off to battle with some forest fire, our mantra was "they're just trees, right?" In other words, no fire was worth dying for, they all grow back.

We need some similar mantra for other types of flying too, something like: "if we can't get in, we'll look at it again tomorrow." or "the weather always eventually gets better."

So, I apologize for my strong, unpleasant response to yet another accident where innocent people were killed. I have no idea what happened here, except the airplane was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the circumstances overwhelmed the pilot. I am very sorry that many families have lost loved ones. I just hope that somebody will read about this sad event and remember it, so that there will never be another freezing rain accident, but I don't really believe it, I know I will read a similar report some time in the future because we are collectively, pathologically unable to learn from other's mistakes.

I have known 10 pilots whom I worked with and drank beer with and had meals with that have died in accidents; I never want to add to that terrible total. Please remember that flying is incredibly dangerous and demands a huge amount of professionalism yet rewards with great satisfaction.

But if you screw up...

[shimmydampner]

Is it a "bad idea?" Myself and my peers have spent a career doing it and am just fine.

Just because you and your peers are just fine, doesn't mean it's a not a bad idea. There are probably more scenarios where 300/1 is a bad idea than a good one. Every year in Alaska, experienced guys pile it in and kill people in poor weather, indicating to me that it's probably a bad idea scenario.

[JayVee]

Gee whiz STL, why are you tripping? Normally you're not so arrogant.

I agree with your post about working for a long time in certain conditions and becoming good at it, if you're talking strictly about helicopter flying.
For fixed wing, no way.
Plus freezing precip! In a Caravan! I mean no disrespect to the pilot, but late 60's in age, I would think he would've been aware of ice-covered Caravans. But then again, maybe he was an old seat-of-the-pants bush pilot who's luck ran out.

[sky's the limit]

I've deleted my posts in this topic, save the first one.

Condolences to all involved in an unfortunate accident.

stl

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

wow, this is bunk.
the poor woman, with her wounded little one.
makes me feel sick.

our weather forecast looks eerily similar to this.
guess where you'll find me (sittin' in the lunchroom) if it doesn't change for the better.

STL, I agree on the Class G minima. But I'm a flatlander, I have no idea how you can make it work in your venue, besides knowing every single tree, rock, pond, and mountain on the way. which makes me happy if that was your answer.
You've drawn ire from the mob mainly because of the freezing precip. part (i think), which (i think) wasn't where you were going with that.
But either way, classy move pulling your post.

[Liquid Charlie]

Just one little comment on 300/1 -- it is below non precision approach limits and once was ILS minimums in Canada -- maybe ops normal for a flingwing but not "normal"ops for a fixed wing -- there is an ops spec for that

[Colonel Sanders]

I have known 10 pilots whom I worked with and drank beer with and had meals with that have died in accidents

If after 40 years of flying, you have only lost 10 friends,
your peer group did very well indeed.

[pdw]

If you bother to actually look at the historical METARs you'll see that:

- weather at St Marys before they departed was overcast at 1200ft with 10SM visibility, temp M09/M33.
- ceiling dropped to 300ft with 1SM vis around the time of the accident
- it was at night
- there was no freezing rain or freezing fog at any time during the night according to the METARS.
- there is no TAF for that airport

(feel free to correct me if any of the above is in error).

So it seems the pilot probably made a reasonable decision to depart, but the weather suddenly changed. Perhaps he should have turned back, but maybe didn't realise. ...

That's it, ... and "suddenly" is right.

[Rowdy]

So many different experience and comfort levels on this forum. From fair weather rec. pilots, homebuilt owners, weekend warriors and the like all the way to retired 20k airline drivers, aerobatic champs, off strip twin otters skippers and a pile of coast dogs. I understand where many are coming from. I myself am still relatively low time compared to some here, but this is my opinion on the environment and the derailment of threads like this. The pavement to pavement IFR and fair weather recreational crowd have voiced their opinions on the weather and their personal feelings that 300-1 should be illegal and not flown in. Also that freezing precip should not be flown in. While I agree on the later, it doesn't appear to have been forecast, nor was it showing up in any of the METARS and reports.

Many of us, who survive year round in the 703 and 704 VFR/IFR commercial world have flown down to the limits (much like this incident of 300-1). Many of us have also had close calls, picked up ice unexpectedly, flown into fog, darted CB's that were not meant to be there or watched the winds pick up far more than predicted or anticipated. Even with years of experience and local knowledge, as they say, shit happens.

Its silly to look back and go 'well that idiot should never have gone'. or 'I wouldn't have done that'. Hindsight is 20/20 and you know what? I bet you probably WOULD have gone and done something similar, tempting fate and the unpredictability that is weather and conditions. We all do this all the time, it's part of our responsibility to manage risk while still getting the job done. Stop forgetting that. Listening to a lot of you, I'm simply amazed that airplanes leave the ground in this country.

Instead of this incessant bickering about the accidents PDM, and how some of you think you're out and out better than everyone else.. why are we not looking to improve the odds, the chances, the safety and the reporting in our corners of the industry?

Where is the call for more weather information? Better reporting? more accuracy? More pireps? the technology is there in spades! Yet we are still in the dark ages..

Why are we not better equipping our machines? Especially those operating in harsh environments? Synth vision? FLIR? XM weather? Better comms, more icing protection etc.

Why are we not properly improving training in the 703-704 and ab initio world? A lot of it still has roots in material produced in the 60's and then lightly amended in the touchy feely , sue everyone 80's and 90's? I mean, our annual icing training consists of a little pamphlet and a video made in 1992.. Double you tee eff friends.

Another area which needs improvement. Attitude. Check the ego at the door. There should not be a 'giter done' attitude anywhere.. and yet we still see it in MOST environments in some which way shape or form. Why are we not running initial applicants through personality exams? Why is there no segment in regards to licensing? Simply cut out those that are going to bullhead their way into a smoking hole in the ground!

Now back to the 208 crash speculation...