Curious about being a VFR!

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MikeAndHike
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Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

I am currently in the VFR stream for YEG. I just received my green light on my second interview yesterday and as you would expect I am very excited. I only just started the application process in June so everything has gone really quickly. I understand I will waiting until December at the earliest now before I hear anything else. I am however very curious about the program. I received a tour of the training area and ACC when I went for my interview a week ago but I have never seen the inside of a tower before. Are any of y'all a VFR? Anyone want to tell me more about the daily working life of a Tower Controller? I have watched all of the Nav Canada youtube videos but would love to learn more. Are there any good non NC videos you would recommend? Also is there any chance of getting a tour of a tower? Really any and all info would be greatly appreciated. I have read back a couple of pages in the forums but most of the info is about the application procedure and some about the course. I am really interested in what life as a VFR is really like.

Thanks,
Mike
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cj555
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by cj555 »

I'm confused. I thought VFR meant "Visual Flight Rules" which are a set of regulations a pilot must operate under. How can you "be" a VFR?

Do you mean what is it like to be an "air traffic controller?" Maybe I don't understand all the lingo, but I'm a bit lost!
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Driving Comet
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by Driving Comet »

VFR generally refers to an airport controller. IFR generally refers to an area controller.

I'm not sure the exact question. I just finished the generic VFR course. You do that for however long, generally 4-6 months and then get sent to a unit in the FIR. Training starts from the basic of basic, provisions of service, and goes all the way to multiple intersecting runway ops with IFR/VFR traffic, mix of size and speed differences and other complexities.

Your timeline seems very quick compared to mine. Good luck!
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looproll
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by looproll »

Well, you might get sent to Fort McMurray if you`re in the YEG program. You`ll have an OJI over your shoulder teaching you how to do it in real life. Once you`re checked out, life is good. Welcome to the NavCanada millionaires club! Work 8.5 hours tower or ground, regular breaks, hangin' out controlling planes. Life if good.
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vince79
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by vince79 »

Hi Mike,

I'm in YQB and had my second interview at the airport, so i had the chance to go in the tower for about an hour ! Really cool !!! View, traffic, etc.. :)

I found this video, which shows pretty much what it's like in the tower. If you understand a bit of french, you'll find it interesting:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4392191251011

Also, i think there's an episode in The Aviators which shows what the tower's work is like. http://www.theaviators.tv.

Bye !

Vincent
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cj555
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by cj555 »

Very cool thread!

I am considering changing careers to become a pilot, but I have also been looking at ATC. Can anyone comment on what its like to make a career out of ATC? How is the schedule? Stress level? Working conditions?

From what I hear it is a fast paced, high stress career with great pay and benefits. As long as you can handle the pressure, you're good to go. Is that an accurate picture?
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Thanks for all of the responses so far. Please keep them coming. To clarify I am currently in stream to be trained as an Air Traffic Controller (VFR) - Tower Controller. I hope to be invited to train this next spring.

I am looking for any and all info in regards to the training and daily life of a Tower Controller.

Driving Comet, it is cool to hear from someone going through the course. I would love to know more about the generic portion you just finished. Was it what you expected? What all do they teach you? And what are some things a guy could do to be more prepared?

I have heard that there isn't a whole lot you can do to prepare. I have heard that learning Airport designations could help. Is there a complete list somewhere. So far my googling is going so so.

Also I would love to hear from anyone working in the Edmonton FIR about different destinations. I am aware and actually pretty excited that we could be sent to Fort Mac, White Horse, or Yellow Knife. Has anyone lived in any of these places? What is it like to live there and work there?

Thanks Again,
Mike
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Driving Comet
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by Driving Comet »

In a nut shell, generic portion is MANOPS and how to apply them.

If you have any specific questions you can message me.
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robshelle
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by robshelle »

Hey mike, welcome to the potential world of ATC. I used to be a commercial pilot for a few years before coming over to this side of the mike, and haven't looked back since. 15 years now, and it makes for a great work/family life. You will be involved in shift work, which means working weekends, evenings and early mornings. after a while, you'll get used to it, and then wonder how normal people live.

If you want a tour of YEG tower,let me know, that's where I work. I have a few days off, but I'll be there this friday (sept 21) to next wednesday from 6:30 am to 2:30 pm. If you don't get there, don't sweat it. If you make the course, you'll come over a couple of times anyways to see us in action.

cj555 - ATC is a far better career choice than pilot right now. Unless you get left seat at westjet, already left seat at AC, or in a few select good companies corporate wise, none of them compare to our lifestyle. If you really want to fly, be prepared for low pay, low job security, lots of strange hours/shifts, and quite possibly never sleeping in your own bed. There are some good jobs out there, but be prepared to sacrifice lots to find them. The good stuff from ATC side (as I see it):

Money: After initial 6-8 months unpaid training in the school, you will get posted to your permanent job location to be trained On the Job. Here, you will recieve training pay, approximately 34000$/year right now. If you are in a tower, qualification time is anywhere from 6-9 months, up to 1.5 years at certain units(YYC, YYZ etc). Initial qualifaction pay is at least 65000$, and top out can be around 90000$ at the smaller units, up to 150000 at the busier units.

Time off: Start with 15 days vacation, + 11 Lieu days (in lieu of holidays) per year. after 8 years, you get an extra 5 days off. after 35 years you get 30 days vacation + 11 lieu days. Sick leave entitlements(we don't want you working when you are sick!) of up to 15 days per year, and this gets banked up every year if you don't use it. Normal shift rotations have us working 17 days out off every 28, so 3 more days off per 4 weeks than normal mon-fri workers.

Security: unless you really screw up, this is one of those jobs for life. no lay-offs forever, there have been a few firings for other reasons though. Once your schedule is set, you can count on it to plan your life, even knowing what days you will be working 2 years away! (the schedules can change if you trade with someone else, or if management needs to reoptimize the schedule if it is imbalanced, doesn't happen often though) We also have programs in place in case you lose your medical, or even become disabled short term and cannot function as an ATC for a while. Early retirement options as well (25 years only) with decent pension.

Pension: Still gold plated. Defined benifit, after 35 years 70% salary. This is currently under negotiations, but I doubt it will change.

The job itself: Generally really fun, but I am a masochist! There are good days, and bad days, more good than bad though.

The negatives of the job:

It isn't flying, I do miss it. But I rent a C172 once in a while and go flying by myself.

Shift work (I said above that it was good, but there is also some bad). Working weekends (you are guaranteed one weekend off every 4 weeks, and up to 2 weekends depending on your selected shift).

Midnight shifts, our bodies just arne't made for that!

No job perks, no travel benifits, no discounts. We don't even get the NAVCANADA Fees reimbursed from airline tickets!

Training - there is no easy way to say it, training sucks! the course in the school is fun(I have taught it), no real pressure unless you are struggleing, and during evals. It even sucks more when you have been a qualified controller for some time, and are cross training into a new position, a big hit to the ego to be told that you are doing something wrong!

Initial postings. In the ACC if you are IFR - the qualification rate sucks! If you are in a tower, especially in YEG region, you could go to Yellowknife, whitehorse, even Fort McMurray! I have worked in Yellowknife, a nice town, good work environment, its just that it is at the end of a very long road to nowhere. You have to stay there for at least 2 years before you can bid out to wherever you want.

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Robbie, just WOW. That was exactly what I was looking for. What a great post.

As I am not currently a pilot I won't miss the skies like you do. I am excited to work in a tower though. I really hope I get the call this December for the spring classes. That said I am eligible for the next 3 courses I believe and will be ready and willing when ever the call does finally come.

I would love a tour of the tower sometime. I don't live near YEG though so I will message you next time I am coming up to the City of Champions.

As far as the negatives go it sounds a lot like I expected. I am not put off by shift work. Just like you said once you and your family get used to it, it can be great. Knowing your schedule so far in advance is awesome. I am a little sad to hear there are no flight perks but I wasn't expecting it either. Going north doesn't worry me at all. I grew up in some pretty remote locations.

Are there medical/dental benefits and the like? How about when they move you, do they pay the moves or is that at our expense? What is the check out rate like for VFR OJT's?

Thanks Again,
Mike
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looproll
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by looproll »

MikeAndHike wrote:
Are there medical/dental benefits and the like? How about when they move you, do they pay the moves or is that at our expense? What is the check out rate like for VFR OJT's?

Thanks Again,
Mike
I believe the medical/dental coverage is paid by the company which is nice (80% prescription coverage). They move you when you're licenced and win a bid to a new location. They even pay the fees associated with real estate transactions and pay for a house finding trip in your new location before you move!
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Bzubot
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by Bzubot »

Hi Mike,

Similar boat, I'm in the IFR stream for Edmonton, had my assessment in March, and interviews in April and May. I've put a link below from the YYC tower, I didn't make the video, but I was up in the Tower back in February job shadowing.

http://youtu.be/bk5qlmHJvqc

Brett
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evilgravy
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by evilgravy »

also in the IFR stream for YEG... wondering if the May class is filled yet?

best of luck to all waiting for courses! and, I concur - great post by robshelle!
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Hi Brett,

Thanks for sharing that video. It was awesome to watch. I hope to somehow get a visit to either yyc or yeg towers. Who knows, with a little luck, we both may end up in training this May. I was told that both VFR and IFR courses were scheduled to start then. Thanks again for your post.

Mike
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

I thought I would just pop in on this dusty old thread to say that I have been placed on course. I will be starting my VFR training in YEG this September. I was wait listed for the spring course and didn't get the call but I have been patiently waiting and was excited to receive my call yesterday.

A couple of questions for those at YEG or those that have trained there.
1. I have living arrangements and the finances in order. What are some other important things to have ready for start of class?

2. What is a typical day like during training?

3. Do I need many supplies, binders and the like, or is that provided?

4. What was the most challenging part of your training and what would you advise me to do to be ready for it?

Thanks for your time,
Mike
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TA/RA
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by TA/RA »

Congrats Mike and Hike! Good luck.
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Tango5
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by Tango5 »

Congrats, MikeAndHike! Welcome to the wonderful world of ATC :)

I'll try to share a little bit of wisdom from my training.

It's excellent that you have your finances and housing in order! That will take a nice chunk of the stress off. Be sure that you have a place/nook/room that can be 100% yours. You will need a quiet space to do your studying. There will be a LOT of that! I (kinda) joke that I studied more in my VFR course than I did in 5 years of university. I split my time between quiet coffee shops and my apartment. Find an effective study method. Flash cards are a great tool. Or re-reading and re-writing over and over. Find a study buddy and quiz each other. Whatever works for you! But you WILL need a bullet-proof study method.

A typical training day is basically a lot of knowledge thrown at you very quickly. You'll spend most days back and forth between classroom work and simulator training. Don't worry if you feel like you're constantly running just to keep up. That's normal! It can be very overwhelming. Ask a lot of questions. Seek clarification if you don't understand. The instructors are truly amazing and their purpose is to HELP YOU SUCCEED! They are fantastic sources of information and support. Utilize them accordingly!

Don't worry too much about supplies. Bring a note pad, pen, pencil, and whatever else you think you might need but don't over-do it. They'll provide all the materials that are required in terms of publications and such. I'd also recommend bringing snacks and a water bottle for those long lessons!

I think the most challenging part of training for a lot of people is the complete immersion that happens. You REALLY don't have time for much of a social life. It sounded like an exaggeration when I first started the process but I saw the truth in it right away. The course is demanding. More so than anything else I've ever done. Start practicing saying "no, not tonight" to your friends. If you're not studying, you'll be in the simulator. Or reading. Or sleeping. Lather, rinse, repeat. The payoff is worth it. I promise you that.

Best of luck to you on your new adventure!! I'm a very new controller so I know exactly what you'll be going through, as I went through it pretty recently. Please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions!

Tango
VFR ATC
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Tango, thank you for your reply. I believe that I will take advantage of your offer to exchange pm's.

When I was wait listed this last winter for the spring class I went through the ITA (Introduction to Aviation) course work. I am just waiting to receive the updated version to start again.
Are there any parts of the course that I should devote extra time to? I am not rushing through it. I am lucky to have July and August off so I will be able to take my time, I am just wondering if there are any sections that are more important, or at least more used, than others.

Mike
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KHills
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by KHills »

Mike and Hike,

We were "given" ipads for all of our course material and it was loaded onto our ipads in the first week. So we just needed a pen, but we had supplies available for our use if we wanted the old-school flashcards, highlighters, etc. I say "given" because it will be a taxable benifit for our tax year and if at any point you are CTed (cease training) then you will lose it.

the ITA gives a pretty good review on what is on the ITA exam, what doesnt come up in that exam that you think would have been testable will probably come up in your exams during one of the blocks later in the course.

As far as what to do before you start the course, it all depends on your aviation background (I am too lazy to go through old posts to read about your background) If you are relatively new to aviation, the ITA is a pretty big chunk of material to learn, that said if you've been going through it for the last 8 months and you are ready for the exam there are things that can be learned to get you prepped for the SIM portion.


I am 3 week away from graduating from the vfr course in YVR, PM me with any other questions if you like.
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Thanks for all the great responses so far! Truly, there are a lot of helpful people here.

With my training now just over two months away I can't help but look forward to it, and beyond it. I am curious what are ATC tower schedules like in the Edmonton FIR? What is the rotation from days to evenings to nights, etc..? How many controllers are in the Control Tower on each shift? (I realize that YYC and YXY are going to have different staffing levels, I am curious about them all.)

Thanks Again!
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Well I am 281 hours from the start of my training. Getting pretty excited for it. I move up to YEG this Friday. That will give me a week to settle in and review the ITA material once more. Wish me luck!
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rspencer38
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by rspencer38 »

I'm hoping to start my journey towards ATC, waiting for the invites to the testing session in YEG for october!
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MikeAndHike
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by MikeAndHike »

Thought I might as well pop in with an update. I graduated from the generic vfr course today and will be reporting to Whitehorse for on the job training before Christmas.
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CarbHeat
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by CarbHeat »

Congratulations! Good luck up north
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TA/RA
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Re: Curious about being a VFR!

Post by TA/RA »

Well done MikeandHike! YXY is one of the best places to live in Canada! Enjoy every minute of it!
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