Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

[Colonel Sanders]

Canadian Professional Pilots Association

Getting warmer.

[Brown Bear]

As a working professional pilot, I am definitely NOT a blue collar worker.
Gino

And, with that one sentence, you've managed to insult every man and woman who works in the trades. People who, are intelligent enough, or who have enough pride NO TO WORK for FREE! Who will not post enormous bonds because the people they work for don't trust them. People who won't stab their coworkers in the back to get on a "machine" first.
You just keep pounding that sunshine there Gino.
Again, these are issues your college has NO intention of addressing....

[bushhopper]

Traditionally groups like this are called a College. Not a educational college but a professional college.

How would we deal with PPL or recreational pilots? Something we as a College need to figure out. But having 2 bodies is not a bad idea either.

col·lege
ˈkälij/
noun


noun: college; plural noun: colleges

1.
an educational institution or establishment, in particular.

2.
an organized group of professional people with particular aims, duties, and privileges.
"the electoral college"
synonyms: association, society, club, institute, body, fellowship, guild, lodge, order, fraternity, league, union, alliance More
"the college of physicians"

Origin
late Middle English: from Old French, from Latin collegium ‘partnership, association,’ from collega ‘partner in office,’ from col- ‘together with’ + legare ‘depute.’

as·so·ci·a·tion
əˌsōsēˈāSHən,-SHē-/
noun
noun: association; plural noun: associations; noun: assn.

1.
(often in names) a group of people organized for a joint purpose.
"the National Association of Broadcasters"
synonyms: alliance, consortium, coalition, union, league, guild, syndicate, federation, confederation, confederacy, conglomerate, cooperative, partnership, affiliation, organization; More
club, society, congress
"a trade association"
Ecology
a plant community defined by a characteristic group of dominant plant species.
2.
a connection or cooperative link between people or organizations.
"he developed a close association with the university"
synonyms: relationship, relation, interrelation, connection, interconnection, link, bond, union, tie, attachment, interdependence, affiliation More

[Brown Bear]

Seems to me, that it's a real kick in the teeth to refer to a pilot as "blue collar"? Even though, a vast number of us, carry our lunch to work, wear steel toed boots, wear fashionable Carharts or Levi's? Outside of the airlines, we have our group of "pretend" white collar drivers, flying around the north, freezing our asses off, in totally inappropriate white shirts and ties to impress the reserves.
Some also seem to think persons in classic "blue collar" jobs, have no training, responsibility, or skills. You'd be very wrong.
Most are under the mistaken (still waiting for somebody in the know to contradict me on this???) impression that the college will address the real issues facing young pilots today. Crap wages. Dangerous working conditions. Huge bonds. Payroll hold backs. Workplace harassment. Your college will do NOTHING to address these issues.
If you attend these meetings (and I think you should) ask what the college will do for YOU? And don't settle for abstract answers about "code of ethics" etc., get to the meat of the matter. You, Joe Pilot, working for the small operator, pushing weather, being called a coksucker, having your wages docked, paying huge bonds.....YOU...not your airline pilot buddies....YOU!

[bushhopper]

As a working professional pilot, I am definitely NOT a blue collar worker.
Gino

And, with that one sentence, you've managed to insult every man and woman who works in the trades. People who, are intelligent enough, or who have enough pride NO TO WORK for FREE! Who will not post enormous bonds because the people they work for don't trust them. People who won't stab their coworkers in the back to get on a "machine" first.
You just keep pounding that sunshine there Gino.
Again, these are issues your college has NO intention of addressing....

Here is my take on it as a member:

Obviously you missed the part where the COPC is seeking opinions form guys like you, if so you would of picked up on the fact that the college would love to address those issues, of working for free, expats underselling Canadian wages. COPC cant control wages, or never will be able too. Limiting foreign pilots from underselling is something we could as a organization lobbying the goverment. Only way to control wages, is to control the supply and demand of pilots, that is risky business. Bonds is something the college shouldn't get involved in as it is company issue, which we have no influence over. It is a financial decisions. If a company spends $40,000 on a type rating, it is logical you will need to commit to a term. I am glad you are taking part in the conversion just I am disappointed in your hostile attitude while COPC made it clear we are open to ideas, solutions and reasonable policy. COPC is still under construction, and does not have solutions for everything. If you would like to join, and volunteer your time to a specific issue and figuring out a solution, please email the OP.

[bushhopper]

No one here really cares, call me blue or white, but that is not a argument to discredit or argue against COPC. It seems like you and a few others are saying blue collar pilots are too inferior to form a College, which is not true, pilots obviously already formed COPC and have 1400 members. Getting down to the meat and bone issues, it takes time, and COPC leadership must be politically sensitive. COPC legacy is not to be a union. Most of us would be happy with health benefits if that is the only real result of our efforts.

[Pavese]

Traditionally groups like this are called a College. Not a educational college but a professional college.

How would we deal with PPL or recreational pilots? Something we as a College need to figure out. But having 2 bodies is not a bad idea either.
SNIP!

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on both counts and here is my supporting argument:

You can quote the dictionary but college is not a term that has wide recognition and use for anything except an educational institution. The only other associations using the term are medical practitioners which is why I made the comment that it was a pretentious title. If you Google you will find only references to educational institutions and medical associations (College of Physicians & Surgeons, Therapists etc.). "Association" (as in Canadian Professional Pilots Association) would be a more credible and informative title to adopt and eliminate any side discussion (like this) about credibility of the organization and it's objectives based on first impressions.

On point #2, dividing regulation of pilots between a recreational organization (TC) and a (private) "Professional" organization is a recipe for destructive bureaucracy^2 and infighting over turf which we do not need in any form (and how do you draw the line for a PPL who is a member of a professional pilot's organization yet still covered by TC??). We do not need a scenario where the government organization washes their hands of an area like PPL because it's expedient and dumps it on a private organizations like this who don't want the responsibility! Think of the national airport policy and the havoc it has created for the smaller airports which train the very members the association is counting on recruiting.

We need ONE "go-to" point for regulation, period. We do not need more dismantling of our national aviation infrastructure, or national government is doing just fine on their own.

Addressing medical coverage, tailored work and life insurance, professional ethics, mentoring etc. etc. in the role of an organization a pilot can opt into are positive and valuable objectives, involving itself in regulatory (legal) management and dividing the aviating population are not positive objectives.

Closing with all of the necessary IMHO & YMMV and all that

D

[iflyforpie]

As a working professional pilot, I am definitely NOT a blue collar worker.
Gino

Sorry Gino, you are a machinery operator. Blue collar all the way.

I don't know what this obsession with the colour of your collar is anyways. I make more than my white collar banker does... but less than my blue collar brother in law who works in the patch.

[armchair]

The College could only be truly functional if it was mandatory membership for all commercial and above pilot licenses. However, this will be nearly impossible to achieve. In that same vein, if the day comes when we have two distinct classes of commercial pilots - those who are members of a COPC and those who are not - and this affects employment opportunities (ie some biased companies hire only those who are members, hence discriminating against those who are not) , we'll have a worst problem that we have now.

Further, the College could only be truly functional - in the way a College of Physicians is - if it had that outright ability to pull license privileges in the event a "member" seriously violates a basic code of ethics, or seriously violates a regulation. Does that mean the COPC will have its own enforcement division, wearing pretend-TC enforcement hat, and investigate the facts? Could the College budget shoulder the escalating expenses of investigating violations? Watch that membership fee increase in leaps and bounds as the COPC responsibilities increase.

Clearly we cannot have two regulating bodies. My preference would be to turn the table around and look at operators, and force holders of 604, 702, 703 and 704 operating certificates as well as flight schools abide by a specific code of ethics and working conditions for their working pilots and flight instructors, including compensation, hours of work, fatigue rules, OSH etc. Their insurance companies should keep a tight leash on compliance, so operators have no choice but to comply. Get suspended by TC, or lose your insurance coverage for a month... That model has its own set of problems too though, but it would eliminate the need to worry about the private pilot sector, and having two sets of governing bodies.

[bushhopper]

Solving the details and how to make it function, on recommendation of policy is something we as a group can implement or not. Trying to avoid negative impact on the PPL sector is most likely of great concern. The idea of COPC making recommendations to TC sterns from the fact that some pilot feel there are discrepancy between TC and industry standards. Also if the COPC has governing power, we would be able to suspend or pull licenses for braking code of ethics.

1. I would like to see the benefit package, mentorship, and etc be implemented.
2. Lobby the goverment to stop issuing temporary work permits or visas to Expat pilots. The reason why the industry is able to do it is because they lobbied for it. We must lobby against it and find a happy medium.

There is a lack of Balance in our industry, with most of the power, lobby, and influence is on the operator side. Unions fight over internal stuff like seniority, pay and etc and those fight are limited to the company they work for, does not help me and other none union pilots who have currently no voice. Unions do not resolve some key issues and therefore I encourage everyone to join and help this association come to fruit in a manner that most of us are happy.

I personally respect the opinion that "association" compared to "College" would be a much more clear tittle for some. But at this point I think we made it clear what COPC stands for, and it is not there to issues diplomas and degrees lol. I am sure board of directors will take your concern seriously and try to implement a action plan to clarify the tittle after the OP passes on the your concern. I guess COPC will have to make it more clear it is a professional association not a educational institution.

Please remember, COPC is still under construction, and COPC needs your help. If you are worried about this association turning into something you may not like, the only way to insure your interest are respected is to become a member. Refusing to join only limits your ability to implement your ideas in our democratic process. Instead of sitting by and watching from the sides lines, I joined myself to make sure it becomes what it should become.

[B52]

The idea of a "College" and their choice of that word over "Association" is frightening.
It has all the indicators of an attempt to grab incrementally, as much power as is possible.

What's next, a requirement that pilots have attended a college in order to be employed?

What is next is their quest to be able to "pull licences"

We already have One Government Regulatory Authority and it has the sole authority
to administer the Regulations.

One way or another, "The College" seeks to take over that role.
So what they are saying is, would you prefer to have an "accountable" Government Department
or a "private corporation" administering the legislation.

There are already several frightening examples of "private corporations" that end up re-writing legislation
and effectively creating secret police.

Let's take an example, "The College" gets to make recommendations, as to who can be a
transport canada inspector, who can do rides, who can be admitted to rides.
Then they make submissions and have the Legislation changed to suit their agenda,
which will end up being gaining as much power as possible.

Then if you disagree with what the central cult think or more to the point dictate
what is their view of correctness, then you will be deemed to disagree with them
and unsuitable to be a member.

They can claim honourable intentions and you can see that it has already created
several full time positions and it's budget can only be increasing and that will raise
motivations to create ever more bureaucracy to create more bureaucracy whose
employment will have nothing to do with all the poor low timers ending working
for the worst operators and playing Russian Roulette.
op
Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. You only have to look at this forum
to see abuse of absolute power when it comes to saying anything that those
who run the forum might not like.

Any post like this is normally deleted as soon as it is posted and the poster banned.

Can you imagine how a "college" would operate if it gains the powers it seeks?


The College of Physicians and Surgeons is a classic example, as is the OIPRD, the Ontario organization
for investigating police complaints. Both organizations actively sanitize complaints. Then you have the
Canadian Judicial Council, another organization with the frightening ability to sanitize or remove any and all complaints
regarding the Judiciary.

We can be thankful that the College do not yet have power in Canada and if we have a problem with Transport
Canada there are legal and political recourse's available.

What we need is "an Association" to ensure that we have accountability by the Government and
its appropriate department to administer Aviation Regulations, who by the way, should be
taking care of those who one way or another are accidents going to happen or cause accidents.

[Brown Bear]

As a working professional pilot, I am definitely NOT a blue collar worker.
Gino

And, with that one sentence, you've managed to insult every man and woman who works in the trades. People who, are intelligent enough, or who have enough pride NO TO WORK for FREE! Who will not post enormous bonds because the people they work for don't trust them. People who won't stab their coworkers in the back to get on a "machine" first.
You just keep pounding that sunshine there Gino.
Again, these are issues your college has NO intention of addressing....

Here is my take on it as a member:

Obviously you missed the part where the COPC is seeking opinions form guys like you, if so you would of picked up on the fact that the college would love to address those issues, of working for free, expats underselling Canadian wages. COPC cant control wages, or never will be able too. Limiting foreign pilots from underselling is something we could as a organization lobbying the goverment. Only way to control wages, is to control the supply and demand of pilots, that is risky business. Bonds is something the college shouldn't get involved in as it is company issue, which we have no influence over. It is a financial decisions. If a company spends $40,000 on a type rating, it is logical you will need to commit to a term. I am glad you are taking part in the conversion just I am disappointed in your hostile attitude while COPC made it clear we are open to ideas, solutions and reasonable policy. COPC is still under construction, and does not have solutions for everything. If you would like to join, and volunteer your time to a specific issue and figuring out a solution, please email the OP.

So, by your own admission there are no plans to address bonds, working condition and other concerns of young pilots. Wages and working conditions ARE the problems facing entry level pilots. Off shore workers? Good luck with that. I'm not hostile. I just don't agree with your whole college dream.

[Brown Bear]

B52, good post.

[frozen solid]

I think some of you guys need to forget about this "collar" bullshit. Sure pilots are heavy-equipment operators. You can also compare some of them to blue-ocean sailors if you like, or the guy with a white hardhat, tie and clipboard in the control-room of a mill. And I suppose you can call the white-collar workers "light equipment operators" too, in the sense that they operate blackberries and other "business machines". Who cares? A pilot is a pilot. Not a business-man, not a truck-driver, not an accountant. A pilot. The work is inherently different to any of those things, as they are inherently different from other things. This whole "collar" business is just an expression of peoples' general instinct to separate themselves into classes, and the assumption of some kind of superiority inherent to one or the other depending on who you listen to. Personally my collar has most often got fur on it. I'm just going to automatically not listen to anyone who refers to me as a "driver" or a "systems manager" or "white collar" or "blue collar". Just like any other job (I expect) I try to fight the good fight against the forces trying to prevent my work from getting done. That's it. It's difficult to quantify the value of this work when you're forced to listen to yourself being called by names that belong to other jobs, that other people do.

I'm beginning to think that this line of work, or profession or whatever, attracts the kind of minds that make organising any of them a pipe dream. I used to compare flying to being a professional mariner, and I still think they have a lot in common. However, I think if I was going to compare this racket to anything, I'd tend to compare it to being an actor. Everyone secretly wants to be an actor. You've got a gig that looks from the outside to be easy and well-paying. Some of the highest "practitioners" live in mansions and waste their money on all kinds of outrageous things, and prance around in high society. Others are lifting tail in the back of a van in front of a camera for small bills. Some of them are experienced "casting couch" drivers, and others turn down roles because they won't work with children or animals. Some of them are willing to work for free, because they see the job as fun and glamourous, and have always wanted to do it. Others see it as work and demand fair pay. Others vastly over-value themselves. You portray a retard in a big-budget film and you're type-cast forever. (Or fly a plane in a "reality show") All of them got really exited over their first "big break" for about ten seconds before they got jaded and full of themselves. I remember when I got my first flying job, buzzing around in a 1955 Cessna 180 to clean beer cans and fish guts out of boats. I thought I had climbed aboard an escalator to the top. I felt like Harrison Ford probably did when he got the "Han Solo" gig.

You guys are all wrong. We don't need a college OR a lazy pig-f**king blue-collar Fred-Flinstone UNION. We need something modeled after the "Screen Actor's Guild".

[bushhopper]

@Brown Bear: In my opnion: It is very simple, you admitted that health benefit package would be a great asset, that alone justifies our "dream" or soon to be reality, but I by no means support the college getting involved in union style dealings. And no! bonds are not a issue in my opinion, bonds are govern by supply and demand, working conditions; so many of us have no issue with our working conditions and we are fully aware of the job descriptions we take. Companies provide, lodging, food, clothing, equipment, what else is to ask for more? I have not seen 1 companies yet that offered poor working conditions, I was always fully aware of how good or shitty it will be. I do not think working conditions are a concern of many young pilots, I never heard 1 young pilot complain about working conditions, and most companies do not request payment upfront for bonds, but offer more promissory notes. There is nothing wrong with a young pilot making a commitment while he builds a reputation.

Again my opinions are my opinions and I will support my ideas via COPC democratic system, but other members may have other ideas or goals and I respect them. This is not just about me me, its about us, and I am happy to reach a medium.

[cncpc]

My preference would be to turn the table around and look at operators, and force holders of 604, 702, 703 and 704 operating certificates as well as flight schools abide by a specific code of ethics and working conditions for their working pilots and flight instructors, including compensation, hours of work, fatigue rules, OSH etc. Their insurance companies should keep a tight leash on compliance, so operators have no choice but to comply.

Exactly. That is your answer. Certify the operators to a higher, privately established, standard, and market that higher standard to customers. No, not the independent auditor scam, but a genuine standard set and enforced by the "Operators College" or Association, or whatever, and by people who really do know what makes an aviation company safe and capable of providing good and reliable service.

Implicit in that is adequate compensation and benefits for pilots, engineers, and all others who work to make such companies what they are.

[x-wind]

Knowledge is Power. It's been a proverb for some time.

The college is looking to take over the education of professional pilots. The argument that such a college won't have an effect on the problems for professional pilots is very near sighted.

[Beefitarian]

Canadian Professional Pilots Association

Getting warmer.

Registered Official Canadian Kindred of Extra Terrific pilots?

[trey kule]

What concerns me is this. There will be a college. But other than some rather limited insurance plans we dont know exactly what the college will be. In fact, if I understand it correctly, the plan for the information sessions is to determine the role of this predetermined college.

If the college is not trying to usurp Tc regarding licensing, it would typically only involve commercially licensed pilots , or pilots who fly for a living. Small problem. I am sure it will be overcome, but the college will go ahead.

Someone, somewhere, during the organizational planning must have identified some needs for the college to fulfil, which makes the reason for all these information meeting a bit puzzling. The college is fait complete but is now looking for reasons to exist? Very odd.

Lastly, I think. that it is a very valid concern of many of the new commercial pilots that they have representation with regard to small companies' labour practices.

What I see, at this stage is a need to really determine, on an objective level, if the college will be anything other than an insurance provider.....the whole information thing appears to me to be a membership drive by a different name.

Do I support it? Support what? All we know is it is going to happen, and after the information sessions when everyone signs up, we will find out.

Am I the only one that finds this odd?

BTW. I think TC might have learned a lesson with the CBAA and 604.

[ajet32]

"trey kule" has identified the primary concern that I have with the College. In 2005 following several studies and discussion Transport Canada gave the authority to issue Operating certificates and monitor Business Aircraft operations to the CBAA.( If my dates are incorrect please feel free to correct them) In 2011-12 Transport Canada again took responsibility for issuing POC's and for the monitoring of private operators.There have been many discussions about why this happened and there is a great deal of information on TC's site regarding this as well as on the CBAA site.

Why after giving this to an organization and then taking it back would it make sense to give licensing to an organization "College" rather than keep it regulated by the government department responsible. Also of concern to me, the Transport Canada ATPL is ICAO compliant and well recognized throughout the world. I am not so sure a licence issued by a self governing "College" would be as recognized.

My opinion based on some discussion and information that is floating around, just that my opinion.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Mr. Kule summed up my concerns eloquently and I think you're going to find his view to be the predominant sentiment that, to me, has gone completely unacknowledged.

I know the response already: "Just join and change it then". We'll require a better response than that if you truly hope to get everyone on board.

[armchair]

What concerns me is this. There will be a college. .... ... The college is de facto going ahead, but now looking for reasons to exist? Very odd.

Well, you will recall the Quebec ¨Gens de l Air¨ association had similar goals and was also looking for members and to justify its existence... it folded last month. The ¨College¨has been struggling for such answers since at least 2008 now, that is more than 5 years.... There are multiple threads in Avcanada on this subject, with repeated arguments ad nauseam. My bet is that the College will continue to crawl like this for another 3 to 5 years and then fold.

[Beefitarian]

Will there be ice cream at these meetings?

[highlander]

For those of you with any doubts or concerns, have you thought of attending one of these informations sessions? The presentation is quite good, quite thorough and the College is not afraid to take your questions.

The College is still very much in the early stages. However, we have a great group of volunteers who see the long term potential.

I think that many people are confusing the College with a Union. Please don't, they are not the same thing.

As the College membership grows, the intention is to become self-governing. Visit the website and/or attend an information session.

[Justjohn]

I operate with a licence issued by a branch of the CDN government. Every pilot from any country is operating on a licence issued by their government. These governments set the rules and regulations. Nothing is perfect , but it will be a bloody cold day in Hell, before I recognize ANY rules, regulations or codes of conduct imposed on me by any other "governing" body.

If only there was a "Like" button.