Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pilot Research »

cncpc wrote:I don't think the "College" did any of the aviation colleges any favors by openly identifying them as places where this type of radicalism, if that's the word, or stupidity, if that's another option, could flourish.

Graduates from these programs have a tough enough time getting a seat with a good segment of the industry looking to hire low timers.

If employers decide to filter out any applicant who may have had anything to do with the "College" idea, or who may be a stalking horse within their own pilot ranks, openly identifying these institutions as potential breeding grounds was a very bad idea.

Aviation college graduates already have a strike against them, not necessarily rightly so, but this idea that the colleges is where the votes for a College will come from is going to seriously reduce their first employment chances.

I think that Coastal Pacific, Confederation, Seneca, and all the rest may rue the day they allowed their names to be associated with this contentious idea.

The idea of pilots coming together and forming an organization to run our own profession is actually not that radical of an idea. This is part of a country-wide trend where members of other professions have come together and set up their own organizations to run their professions. The most recent I was told of were environmental biologists and social workers.

Once upon a time, SMS was considered to be a dangerous and radical experiment. The idea of not punishing people for their mistakes was unheard of. The logic of the day was that if people made mistakes clearly they were bad people and should have their money taken away from them in the form of a fine. But then Human Factors experts like James Reason (who authored the Swiss Cheese model of accident causation), Sidney Dekker (a Swedish professor) and Key Dismukes (NASA researcher) came along and said this was totally unfair to the operator (pilot). If the operator made mistakes there were probably many other reasons why they made mistakes. Pilots generally have too deep a level of care for their passengers and co-workers to simply label them as bad people. So these Human Factors (HF) experts suggested a non-punishment reporting system where errors could be shared and then new procedures could be made to prevent these errors from happening. These experts said that by punishing people who made mistakes while trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities, it motivated people to lie and hide their mistakes. When they hid their mistakes, that led to other people behind them falling into the same traps. A non-punishment reporting system would show everyone what the mistakes were so they did not make those same mistakes themselves.

So based on this expert advice, Transport Canada took the “radical” step of trying out SMS in Canada and not punishing pilots for their errors; much to the skepticism of some regulators around the world. The introduction of SMS was an admission that in order to improve aviation safety in Canada, we might have to “think outside the box” and try unconventional methods in order to reduce the accident rate. We tend to bash Transport Canada, but Transport Canada is actually seen as an innovative organization on the world stage. When I have attended accident investigation courses I met accident investigators from EADS (Airbus’s parent), Saab in Sweden, Sikorsky Helicopters, and many other Americans. One comment I heard consistently over and over was “Are you from Canada? I have a great deal of respect for Canada. Introducing SMS was a great idea. I wish we had it in our country.”

So what the College of Pilots wants to do is approach Transport Canada and say, if you were innovative enough to introduce a non-punishment reporting system to advance aviation safety, will you take it one step further and let pilots run our own profession? The College of Pilots feels that our profession is now mature enough that we can take over running it ourselves. We have some very effective accident prevention tools such as CRM and SMS. By running our profession ourselves, it would free up resources in Transport Canada to target sources of greater concern within their area of responsibility. The College of Pilots feels we can run our profession in a more streamlined manner. Let’s face it - our technology changes on a monthly basis, while our profession is not nearly as adaptable in a timely manner. NAV Canada is introducing ADS-B to parts of Hudson Bay as opposed to conventional radar installations. What do pilots need to know about it to safely operate in this airspace? The College of Pilots can keep our members up to date on technology changes before they have to find out the hard way.

As for graduates from these venues having a tough time getting their first job, I know exactly what you are talking about because I was one of them. The post-September 11, 2001 job market was brutal. I spent 3.5 years doing every job other than flying in order to get a right-seat Navajo job. That employer rewarded managers who were verbally abusive to the ramp staff, aircraft were overloaded on a routine basis, and who knows how many times minimums were busted in the name of customer service. To this day, I’m still baffled as to why this has to be part of the piloting profession. As a way to get over it, I found myself bitching constantly about my bad experiences starting out in aviation. Then finally someone got tired of me and told me they didn’t want to hear it anymore and why don’t I get off my rear end and do something about it? It was good advice, and when I looked around at all the ideas to improve our profession, the one that I think stands the most chance of being successful and effective is a College of Pilots. So that’s why I’m here and going on this cross-country tour with my team, to see if other pilots agree.

As for employers not approving of the work we are doing, I do not think employers have a reason to be concerned. We are not going to enter the wages arena; that will remain a union function for unionized pilots and an individual pilot’s function if they are non-unionized. I think in fact the College of Pilots will actually help employers. There are instances of established employers with high safety standards facing new competitors who bust regulations in order to gain new customers. The College of Pilots would teach new pilots effective ways to deal with those sources that want them to bust regulations in the name of customer service. Businesses with high safety standards and who care for their passengers should not be punished by new entrants who feel the only way to compete is by cheating on the safety margin. The College of Pilots is looking to set up a level playing field across our profession so it does not matter from one business to the next. These businesses can then compete on schedule, routes, aircraft type, etc. There are many ways to compete without sacrificing the safety level. I know it has been said a million times before, but the truth is if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.

As for these events damaging the reputation of these venues, every venue got an advance copy of the presentation and the talking points before they were asked to approve or disapprove of the presentation. So we have not hid anything from them, nor in any way are we attempting to be dishonest with them. The great benefit for these venues is that their students will be able to make contacts with pilots who work at companies they may want to work for in the future. Perhaps the contacts they meet will one day write them a reference letter to get hired at a company they want to work for. Mentoring of junior pilots is a core value to the College of Pilots because it is a powerful tool for preventing junior pilots from learning things in aviation the hard way. I think about the pilot who ran out of fuel in Winnipeg and landed in a city intersection. If he had a mentor, is it possible the mentor could have prevented him from ending up in a situation he did?

In fact, I think every one of those flight schools and flying clubs should be proud they volunteered to host an evening where pilots can come together, exchange ideas, and discuss how to make our profession better and safer. I am very grateful they gave us a chance to do that. My only regret is we were not able to arrange venues in Quebec, New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland & Labrador, Nunavut, NWT or the Yukon. I accept personal responsibility for that and we will fix that problem next time around.
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Last edited by Pilot Research on Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Gino Under »

Dear "Brown Bear",

Since you've invited me to get personal, I will.
I should know better but apparently, I don't.

Your smart remarks aren't as intelligent as I might have anticipated or hoped. I'd have thought you'd have been keener to offer suggestions for a college based on a more professional level. In fact, the intellectual level to which you have descended, especially with your B.S. remarks about blue collar workers, aren't worth reading. They only serve to illustrate how difficult you must be finding it to stay with and follow the topic. I suggest the reason you're stuck (perhaps frozen would be the more appropriate way of putting it) 'up north' has more to do with your outlook, attitude and self perception than anything else. But I wouldn't know. Maybe nothing more than a personal struggle to fit in with your blue collar buddies than your pilot colleagues. If you are a pilot? Who knows? Sorry, but I'm not sure you are.

If I've insulted any blue collar worker with a simple statement acknowledging which colour of collar worker I perceive myself to be, to f***in' bad. People insult me all the time. In fact, I found your remarks insulting. The simple definition of the term shouldn't insult anyone but you might want to look the definitions up for yourself. Try Wikipedia.

I started my working life as a blue collar tradesman apprentice. My old man was a blue collar tradesman. My father-in-law was a blue collar tradesman. I know what it is, how hard they work, and what it takes to be one so, NO, I am not a blue collar worker nor am I a heavy equipment operator. I've operated "heavies" but NOT the same thing.

FWIW I "paid (at least part of) my dues" up north, working for a 'ma 'n pa' outfit, so you aren't the only one who's experienced hard times, low salary and the suffering that goes with it. I would have thought your lot in aviation would have instilled in you something a lot more creative than the posts you've managed to contribute so far. I know my earlier career experiences 'up north' are still being experienced by a younger generation and for me, that's worth changing.

Except for your remarks about Walter. He IS the best brown Bear ever.
As an Alouette fan I'll go even further. With Mark Trestman at the helm and Jay Cutler as the pivot, I'm looking for many improved Bears next year.

Why not consider what's wrong with this pathetic pilot occupation in Canada and really try to post some of your ideas and suggestions to the good people who've decided it's long over due that something be done about it instead of wasting time trying to insult me. Which, by the way, you can't. I'm too ignorant. But fire away if you like... Maybe we'll both have a laugh?

Cheers,
Gino :partyman:
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Last edited by Gino Under on Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Apollo »

Is there going to be free beer at these meetings? If not, I'm out.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Gino Under »

Apollo

..this is a pilot forum.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by trey kule »

Apollo

..this is a pilot forum.
Hence the interest in free beer. : :smt040

If some people have determined different issues that need to be addressed in our field, why are they not defining the issues , and how an organization will deal with them.
Instead we are being told that a college will come into being and will.....well we will have "information sessions" to determine the answer to that.
I can not help but think that some issues have been identified, but other than planning to start an insurance sales organization, i have not seen any suggestions as to how a college will deal with them....teaching the new pilots not to accept unsafe conditions, you would think would be part of the aviation colleges' curriculum's...dont need a college to do that.
What will the college do, specifically, regarding things like long work hours, no days off, telling pilots not to snag defects. is the college going to get involved in those issues?

I know, i know. Buy a membership. Give us some money and tell us what you want.....

I will reframe from further comment until I have the pleasure of attending one of these information sessions.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by frozen solid »

trey kule wrote:
I know, i know. Buy a membership. Give us some money and tell us what you want.....
I bought a membership for that reason several months ago. I have yet to learn anything. I just figured it would put me in a better position to comment; it didn't. I'm still confused.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pavese »

Pilot Research wrote: My only regret is we were not able to arrange venues in Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland & Labrador, Nunavut, NWT or the Yukon. I accept personal responsibility for that and we will fix that problem next time around.
Why not post a link so that the pilot population not in the selected centers you're visiting can download the presentation? It may address some of the questions which have caused distraction here.

D 8)
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by bushhopper »

I was not personally aware that the current duty rules and guidelines are insufficient or bad. I don't think they are the issue right now. If a study showed that duty time rules are poorly written, what could college do about it?

A: COPC could lobby TC to make the necessary adjustment. We can not do everything at once.

But: I hope the first stage for COPC is to secure benefit package as it is the most dire requirement, and something I want as soonest possible. To make this successful we need to take a multi stage approach not get scattered on multiple projects. Lets give our members something in return that can benefit them right now, and move on to solving other issues at the next stage.

Just like a check list...

COPC can't just fight every single issue an individual pilot may have. I hope that COPC would actually study the validity of issues before taking action and wasting resources.

Changing the duty rules to shorter work days,at this point would actually hurt my ability to make a living.
trey kule wrote:
Apollo

..this is a pilot forum.
Hence the interest in free beer. : :smt040

If some people have determined different issues that need to be addressed in our field, why are they not defining the issues , and how an organization will deal with them.
Instead we are being told that a college will come into being and will.....well we will have "information sessions" to determine the answer to that.
I can not help but think that some issues have been identified, but other than planning to start an insurance sales organization, i have not seen any suggestions as to how a college will deal with them....teaching the new pilots not to accept unsafe conditions, you would think would be part of the aviation colleges' curriculum's...dont need a college to do that.
What will the college do, specifically, regarding things like long work hours, no days off, telling pilots not to snag defects. is the college going to get involved in those issues?

I know, i know. Buy a membership. Give us some money and tell us what you want.....

I will reframe from further comment until I have the pleasure of attending one of these information sessions.
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Last edited by bushhopper on Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Brown Bear »

Gino Under wrote:Dear "Brown Bear",

Since you've invited me to get personal, I will.
I should know better but apparently, I don't.

Your smart remarks aren't as intelligent as I might have anticipated or hoped. I'd have thought you'd have been keener to offer suggestions for a college based on a more professional level. In fact, the intellectual level to which you have descended, especially with your B.S. remarks about blue collar workers, aren't worth reading. They only serve to illustrate how difficult you must be finding it to stay with and follow the topic. I suggest the reason you're stuck (perhaps frozen would be the more appropriate way of putting it) 'up north' has more to do with your outlook, attitude and self perception than anything else. But I wouldn't know. Maybe nothing more than a personal struggle to fit in with your blue collar buddies than your pilot colleagues. If you are a pilot? Who knows? Sorry, but I'm not sure you are.

If I've insulted any blue collar worker with a simple statement acknowledging which colour of collar worker I perceive myself to be, to f***in' bad. People insult me all the time. In fact, I found your remarks insulting. The simple definition of the term shouldn't insult anyone but you might want to look the definitions up for yourself. Try Wikipedia.

I started my working life as a blue collar tradesman apprentice. My old man was a blue collar tradesman. My father-in-law was a blue collar tradesman. I know what it is, how hard they work, and what it takes to be one so, NO, I am not a blue collar worker nor am I a heavy equipment operator. I've operated "heavies" but NOT the same thing.

FWIW I "paid (at least part of) my dues" up north, working for a 'ma 'n pa' outfit, so you aren't the only one who's experienced hard times, low salary and the suffering that goes with it. I would have thought your lot in aviation would have instilled in you something a lot more creative than the posts you've managed to contribute so far. I know my earlier career experiences 'up north' are still being experienced by a younger generation and for me, that's worth changing.

Except for your remarks about Walter. He IS the best brown Bear ever.
As an Alouette fan I'll go even further. With Mark Trestman at the helm and Jay Cutler as the pivot, I'm looking for many improved Bears next year.

Why not consider what's wrong with this pathetic pilot occupation in Canada and really try to post some of your ideas and suggestions to the good people who've decided it's long over due that something be done about it instead of wasting time trying to insult me. Which, by the way, you can't. I'm too ignorant. But fire away if you like... Maybe we'll both have a laugh?

Cheers,
Gino :partyman:
I'm a huge BEARS fan. Truest an is not my fav, however. Really like Lovie Smith.

The biggest thing wrong with "this pathetic pilot occupation" is simply low wages, bonds and working conditions.

I fly up north, because I WANT to. I fly three days a week, commute 12 klms to work, and live on the lake. I have NEVER stated I've had hard times. Did the 737 gig for only a year. Hated living in hotels. If that's your thing, great. It wasn't mine. I have well over twenty thousand, accident free hours. Believe me, I'm not suffering.

I have a university degree, in fact two. I have ZERO interest in seeing aviation in this country become even more regulated than it is today. I'm not personally concerned with companies hiring foreign workers as much as I am with companies who "hide behind" training costs as an excuse to suck money out of young pilots for what, essentially should be the cost of doing business.

Sorry you find my comments insulting, but I'm not staying awake over it.

Good luck with your college. I mean that. I also KNOW you get much more positive feed back for an association. Sounds a whole lot less elitist.

The only input I have for your college.....change the name.

Cheers. :bear: :bear:
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Colonel Sanders »

live on the lake
Because you choose to live in a rural setting, apparently
your opinion is worthless, I am told by the four-bars.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pilot Research »

Brown Bear wrote:
Most are under the mistaken (still waiting for somebody in the know to contradict me on this???) impression that the college will address the real issues facing young pilots today. Crap wages. Dangerous working conditions. Huge bonds. Payroll hold backs. Workplace harassment. Your college will do NOTHING to address these issues.
If you attend these meetings (and I think you should) ask what the college will do for YOU? And don't settle for abstract answers about "code of ethics" etc., get to the meat of the matter. You, Joe Pilot, working for the small operator, pushing weather, being called a coksucker, having your wages docked, paying huge bonds.....YOU...not your airline pilot buddies....YOU!
:bear: :bear:

To clarify, yes I am an airline pilot. And yes, I do live fairly well now after going through some terrible experiences in my first flying job. It would be very easy for me to say to myself those experiences are over and turn a blind eye to the fact they are still going on to this day. But instead I am taking all my yearly allotted vacation to put on this presentation schedule. It would also be very easy for me to get on a computer, go to my employee travel site and book myself a ticket to Australia, Hawai’i or the Dominican for that vacation. But myself and the rest of the volunteers at this organization have decided that the status quo for our profession is in need of some serious improvement. Not for my airline buddies, but for pilots like yourself, going through what we also had to go through.

You are correct, unfortunately wages are not part of the scope of this College of Pilots. I sympathize 100% with your opinion on that issue. They are bad and just getting worse. I do know what it’s like to be at a gas station hoping your credit card has $2.56 left on your limit so you can get home from your entry level, minimum wage (or less) ramp job. That is, if you are lucky enough for your parents to give you their car. The College of Pilots we are trying to set up will be more like the Ontario teachers, where in their College all the members get together and agree upon the standards. Setting wages remains a function of their separate union. The primary reason for that is you just have to look at how many hostile people oppose us from all sides when we talk about setting up a national safety and professional standards organization for pilots. If we went after wages too, our movement would be dead on arrival and we would never know where the fatal bullet came from. Just setting up a national safety and standards organization is going to take a huge amount of work and a significant amount of time. Now that said, just because it is going to be difficult, I do not think we should give up. We can’t leave our profession in the status quo. Something has to change.

Clearly you have gone through some terrible times and that is disgusting some animal would call you something so vulgar. I have been spoken to in a similarly demeaning fashion when I was a ramp employee. Whether you consider yourself a blue collar or white collar worker, speaking to an employee like that has no place in any line of work. We are planning to tackle the issues of workplace harassment and dangerous conditions through updating the required curriculum taught to new commercial pilots. When the government does legislate this College into action, we will make a similar effort to explain to that small minority of pilots that do not understand the concept of how to respectfully treat their co-workers. We will also explain how dangerous it is to bully junior pilots into situations they think are unsafe. We will use education first because education is almost always more effective than discipline. The College of Pilots is NOT intended to be a police organization. Most pilots are highly intelligent and we do not want to get into micro-managing pilot behaviour. However, as a very last resort after all other options have failed, if there is clear evidence a pilot’s bullying behaviour is going to kill a member of our profession and the general public, then absolutely we will step in and look at discipline, including removing them from our profession. That is part of our commitment to our fellow professional and to the general public. That is also what other organizations that run their professions do when on the very rare occasion they come across members of their profession that should not be there.

Now I know some people are going to become very upset and say who do we think we are to remove someone from our profession, but please understand a few items first. Like I said earlier, we will use as much education as possible first, because that is usually more effective than discipline. After all other options have failed, a peer review panel would be convened. Now by peer I mean that panel would consist of pilots from the same aircraft, same geographical location, similar type of operation, etc. They would be asked to judge whether another pilot’s conduct warranted discipline or not. But only as a last resort. The reason being, we simply cannot turn a blind eye to pilots who are going to kill other pilots or the Canadian public. Now 99.99% of pilots will not have to worry about this peer review panel, it is simply for those one or two people who slipped through the cracks and their behaviour is way outside of what the vast majority of pilots think is acceptable.

The above example was about a management pilot so I should explain that we are not an anti-management organization. We are just trying to close one of the problem loopholes in our profession. There are some employers out there that bully their junior pilots who don’t know any better, into dangerous situations. Then when something bad happens, they sit back and tell the accident investigators that they never told that junior pilot to do that, in an attempt to avoid all liability. (Although in Canada the accident investigation process does not assign liability, but you understand what I mean). We want that loophole closed, so now safety will be a shared responsibility, not just for the PIC to take the blame when other organizational factors contributed to an accident.

It sounds like you might attend a presentation, so hopefully we can discuss more then.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Brown Bear »

Well pilot research, you really need to research my posts. You've just stated that dealing with my concerns is not part of your mandate.
These include wages, working conditions and safety. I'm closer to retirement than I like to admit. My concerns are for young pilots being bullied, and victimized, not by other pilots, but rather unscrupulous employers. Again, not part of your mandate. I'm out.
:bear: :bear:
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by longjon »

Really// if its more than 3 or 4 sentences long no one read it. someone wrote a long post here several times and myself and I'm sure most just scrolled down and ignored it. Keep it short people[color=#
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by x-wind »

Brown Bear, you should address pilot researches statement that the college would be dead on arrvial if they went after wages too.

I mean it's the least you could do. It'd be helpful for your attack to be more constructive.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pavese »

bushhopper wrote:
2. Lobby the goverment to stop issuing temporary work permits or visas to Expat pilots. The reason why the industry is able to do it is because they lobbied for it. We must lobby against it and find a happy medium.
If you're successful, have you considered the consequences when the ICAO jurisdictions that permit CDN ex-pats bar them in response?

D 8)
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Post by Beefitarian »

x-wind wrote:Brown Bear, you should address pilot researches statement that the college would be dead on arrvial if they went after wages too.

I mean it's the least you could do. It'd be helpful for your attack to be more constructive.
What exactly did you guys expect? You show up, pockets full of granola, baskets of berries. He is a Brown Bear for crying out loud!

Anyways. You need name that makes a cool acronym like these guys.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93789
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Re:

Post by Pavese »

Beefitarian wrote:
Anyways. You need name that makes a cool acronym like these guys.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93789
Careful Beef, that could come up lame if bushhopper gets his way...... ^ ^

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Post by Beefitarian »

That one's taken.
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Re:

Post by Pavese »

Beefitarian wrote:That one's taken.
:mrgreen:

D 8)
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by TomM »

Brown Bear wrote:My concerns are for young pilots being bullied, and victimized, not by other pilots, but rather unscrupulous employers. Again, not part of your mandate. I'm out.
:bear: :bear:
Hi Brown Bear,

The above items, quoted from a post of yours, are actually part of our mandate. If a pilot is bullied or victimized, specifically with respect to breaking air regulations or safety violations or the use of training as a stick, that would most definitely be within the scope of the College. If this behaviour was being conducted by a pilot, they would appear in front of the College's "peer review panel" and could face sanction.

If this behaviour was being conducted by non-pilots then a number of letters would/ could be sent out- 1. to the operator saying stop this behaviour. 2. to TCCA saying please investigate this. 3. to the CTA saying you may wish to consider revoking this operator's license as they are a threat to safe commerce and 4. to the aviation insurance companies saying that this operator may pose a higher risk and you may wish to consider either increasing their premium or revoking their policy.

Now, if you're going to write letters like that, then you better have some good lawyers.

It is my hope that this would NOT be something that would happen frequently. Part of the goal of the College is to create "self governance" within pilots themselves. I find it comical that some posters here think that this is an initiative to create more bureaucracy and oversight. All we are asking is that the rules that are currently in place be honoured!! In this proposal, we, the pilots would be overseeing ourselves and we would be shown and taught best practices on how that would work. That is what self governance is all about.

All things exist on a bell curve. You have the fringes at either end of the curve and the masses in the middle. When it comes to personal conduct, it's the same. Some that are "wild cards" at one end, others that are "exemplary" at the other end and the rest of us in the middle. It is the intent of the College to "shift the curve" away from the wild cards and toward the exemplars. It also doesn't matter where you are in the industry, we can all conduct ourselves with self respect and dignity.

We have all seen instances where pilots with big kahunas simply say "no" to a particular situation, often to the chagrin of their superior. And often we snicker under our breath and agree with them and are in awe of their personal fortitude. We have also seen situations where pilots should have said no and and then they either live to tell a great story or they suffer the consequences. We learn from that too, often at very high expense. The College hopes to mitigate that with time.

This is about nurturing and support to know what is right and how to go about it tactfully. It isn't about being the boogeyman and hiding in the shadows waiting to pounce.

Respectfully,

Tom Machum
CPPC President
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by TomM »

One other point, if you are a member and haven't been receiving email updates from us, check your spam or junk email folders. We are trying to resolve this issue, but in the meantime, check there.

I know some of you will see the "poetic justice" in the above, given your skepticism of our efforts, so I'll save you the effort :P

Tom
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by 5x5 »

TomM, in a previous post last year http://avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.ph ... ge#p813636 you talked about this Code, yet didn't provide much in the way of details. Again, there still appears to be little in the way of clarification as to what exactly the Code will be. If danger is the primary concern, how can you define that? Determination of danger is based on evaluation of widely variable criteria. And it's done in real time without the benefit of knowing the outcome. Investigating and backcasting is one of the surest ways to get into a morass of legal wrangling as the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of any decision can be questioned based on the outcome. However, not all bad/dangerous decisions result in accidents so they would be deemed "good decisions"? While, sometimes good decisions wind up in accidents, so they are automatically "bad"?

I don't see any way that thorough investigations based on reports/complaints could adequately determine the danger without quite a large bureaucracy. How would this college manage that and would it be worth it? Especially since...
TomM wrote:It is my hope that this would NOT be something that would happen frequently.
....and...
Pilot Research wrote:Now 99.99% of pilots will not have to worry about this peer review panel, it is simply for those one or two people who slipped through the cracks and their behaviour is way outside of what the vast majority of pilots think is acceptable.
If it's going to have such negligible impact, what's the point?
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pilot Research »

Also, please understand that the College of Pilots is NOT a group of airline pilots that think we are better pilots than everyone else and we are going to tell everyone else how to fly. The College of Pilots is about a diverse group of pilots from different segments of the industry and different parts of Canada saying we think it might be a good idea to stop some of the infighting that has characterized our profession for the last 100+ years and try some unity for a change. We are saying that in order to start fixing the problems in our industry, our solution is to create a national safety and standards organization for all pilots. And we really do mean ALL PILOTS. So that means flight instructors, helicopter pilots, aerial fire-fighting pilots, aerial surveillance pilots, floatplane pilots, cargo pilots, air ambulance pilots, corporate pilots, charter pilots, etc. NOT only airline pilots. Airline pilots do not have a monopoly on safety and professionalism.

As for the leadership at the College of Pilots, it is made up of pilots that have backgrounds in corporate operations, cargo, regional, charter, ex-bush, ex-military, ex-floats, ex-air ambulance, ex-flight instruction, and finally airlines. There is not one segment of pilots that has all the answers to our problems. But by sitting down and pooling our collective resources, then we can form an action plan to advance our profession. That’s the thing we have forgotten to look after while we have been busy fighting with each other. We have forgotten to look after our profession and the problems are growing. Just look at the foreign licensed pilots operating within Canada now.

Of course it is not going to be easy to put our disagreements aside. Most of us have had difficult career paths where we have had to struggle for jobs, struggle for hours, struggle for promotions, and struggle to pay down massive student debt. It’s almost as if we have been bred to fight with each other from the minute we entered aviation. But we can’t ignore the problems in our industry anymore. It is time to start proposing solutions. The question we need to ask ourselves is: do we really want to go on infighting for another 100+ years?

Please come to the presentations if you can. We will stay as long as it takes to answer all your questions.
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by Pavese »

Pilot Research wrote: We are saying that in order to start fixing the problems in our industry, our solution is to create a national safety and standards organization for all pilots. And we really do mean ALL PILOTS.
In the context of "All pilots - ALL PILOTS", I'm interested in your position of on the impact on pilots not currently holding an ATP/Commercial but considering or not.

You speak of safety programs, do you envisage programs which would reach to the roots of your prospective membership base, instilling good habits from the beginning and enhancing the safety of recreational or not yet professional fliers? That segment would benefit from mentorship/influence from a down to earth Canadian Professional Pilot's Association and improve the public image of all who pilot aircraft whether they're on their way to the airlines (so to speak) or fly entirely for personal satisfaction.

Making a positive connection to beginning aviators is a win-win which would also ensure you get in on the ground floor so to speak. Follows the theory that it takes a community to raise a child, who better than the big brothers & sisters of the aviating community.

D 8)
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Re: Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

Post by 1000 HP »

I hear the word "unity" a fair bit in the discussions. I was a member of the teamsters union once. What a bunch of arseho___s. I will have to read up some more on this thing. If it involves mandatory membership and they claim to represent all pilots I am worried and will fight against it. Our government claims to represent "all Canadians"....
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