we think it might be a good idea to stop some of the infighting that has characterized our profession for the last 100+ years and try some unity for a change
And if you won't vote for unity then we'll fight you all the way!
If a majority of pilots *don't* want another regulator standing guard over their behaviour, will you respect that display of unity and disband?
What steps are you taking to find out if that's what pilots want? Or have you just decided its a great idea and everyone else should agree?
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
If someone puts a Poll here - simple yes, or no - I bet we mostly agree it's time. You must have a united body to speak within a Pluralistic Political System, such as ours, or you basically don't exist. ( Politically speaking. )
Why all the dissension. Would you complain if your Ice Cream was too Cold or your Coffee too hot? Narcissistic perhaps.
Indanao wrote:If someone puts a Poll here - simple yes, or no - I bet we mostly agree it's time. You must have a united body to speak within a Pluralistic Political System, such as ours, or you basically don't exist. ( Politically speaking. )
Why all the dissension. Would you complain if your Ice Cream was too Cold or your Coffee too hot? Narcissistic perhaps.
Nope, Indanao, Don't agree at all. This 'College' is Not a better option to replace TC as the licensing authority. I also know other working pilots who wouldn't agree with this either.
The more I learn about this 'College' the more I am starting to think it needs to be actively opposed.
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Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.
I intend to attend one of their presentations, I will hold judgement until then. I would encourage all of you to do some research, attend and ask questions. Maybe the college is a terrible idea, maybe it's a great one, either way it's probably worth a couple hours of your time to go hear what they have to say in person.
"JustJohn", no need ( or even any likely possibility ) of the College replacing T.C.. Where do your ideas come from? Being negative affects everybody negatively.
Trades have Unions, and also government licensing authority, and there are many other examples. Nobody advocates replacing T.C. with a College.
Right now we have no one looking out for pilots (politically speaking), loose situation.
Taking matters into our own hands and, or, being able to lobby, or at least create a presence (politically speaking) is a win situation. Money is not real power, politics are. We need a political presence either wise we are weak and divided, and wont be taken seriously. This isn't about protecting the lazy bums of our industry either. Those are unions. Associations are to provide organization, guidance, support, even Geo survey pilots are part of associations. Lets get on with the times. IT IS A ASSOCIATION.
What is there to be scared off? Some diplomacy? Will you strain your brain to much by trying to make a constructive sentence? Try to reason with logic, not emotion? If you can not do that, are you a professional?
It seems like those who oppose it, only oppose for lack of understanding. Professional pilots should have no reason to fear the College. In reality it is a great, counter balance to TC, Industry, unions, to provide check and balances. Kinda like someone making sure we are not getting screwed on all fronts.
Why don't you all just show up at the info meetings, ask your questions and hopefully get your answers there…support what these guys are trying to put together! I do!
I don't have time to read everything in this thread...
But when I first heard of "College of Pilots"... "College" I think of hokey 2am infomercials on how a course changed a persons life by simply attending night courses twice a week for 2 months. And when you throw in "College" and "Pilots" into the same mix... I think of a bunch of drunken idiots at Confederation and Seneca trying to figure out an E6B Stoned out of their minds.
I did judge a book by it's cover. I guess later today I will read said book!
And on that note... If Lawyers get a "Bar"... Why do we get a "College"?
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Meatservo wrote:I just slap 'em in there. I don't even make sure they are lined up properly.
xchox wrote:I don't have time to read everything in this thread...
But when I first heard of "College of Pilots"... "College" I think of hokey 2am infomercials on how a course changed a persons life by simply attending night courses twice a week for 2 months. And when you throw in "College" and "Pilots" into the same mix... I think of a bunch of drunken idiots at Confederation and Seneca trying to figure out an E6B Stoned out of their minds.
1) Yes the name. You are having a hard time getting the label of "college" past people who are willing to read the posts describing the context (and some still reject it). How are you going to convince the people that don't look past the name. A name in marketing can make a big difference. If you spent half that time trying to justify the name into more productive projects, how much further ahead would you be?
2) It can't be mandatory. As far as I'm concerned if something is mandatory it has lost credibility and there is nothing to reign it in if it's out of control. If I don't like what the college does I should be able to withdraw my support to show my dissatisfaction. If you are part of a union you can vote, but you either pay your dues or quit the job. There is no option in that case for I like my job and not the union pretending to represent me.
To be honest I'm not sold on the idea yet, but I'm not closing the door either.
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Last edited by Instructor_Mike on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I attended the information session last night here in Edmonton. I am already a member because I believe in the cause but if you're on the fence as to whether or not to join, ATTEND THE INFO SESSION. It is much better than the info provided on the website.
The info session I attended in YXX made it clear to me that despite being around for 5 years, they haven't thought this through. Transport will not likely hand over the management of just the Commercial/ATPL pilots on their own. The college will need to take on Private, Rec Permit, Ultralight, etc. pilots as well, so Transport can close an office and save the overhead. Keeping the department just for Private and smaller licenses will not interest them, i'm sure.
I too have a problem with the "mandatory membership" nature of this. They say that pilots who currently hold the Commercial license will be "grandfathered" in. How generous. What if they don't want to? Will their Commercial License be rescinded?
Can you ask the Government to hand over the onerous duty of printing banknotes too? That would save a bunch of money as well. And it's about as likely to happen.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
I'm under the impression, now, that the plan is NOT to take away licensing and standards from TC. Instead they want to add another layer of education.
Furthermore, I was told that the college got it's start from two major airline unions donating to 10K each. This should be stated publicly - like in the colleges history section. One of the values is suppose to be transparency.
Photofly, the self proclaimed intent of the CPPC is to make the pilot profession self governing. A few other professions are doing this already. Also, TC is all about self enforced safety programs lately aka SMS. Your analogy is ridiculous.
Making it mandatory allows the College to take sanctions against a pilot who for lack of a better term "breaks the law". It's no different than what TC does now or for that matter, any other professional College be it Engineers, doctors, dentists, lawyers, massage therapists and the list goes on and on and on.........
This being done very successfully every day by many different organizations who's College's protect the integrity of their said profession.
Photofly, the self proclaimed intent of the CPPC is to make the pilot profession self governing. A few other professions are doing this already. Also, TC is all about self enforced safety programs lately aka SMS. Your analogy is ridiculous.
My self-proclaimed intent is to print my own banknotes on behalf of the Canadian Government. Do you think they'll let me?
By the way, my other half makes a decent living picking up the mess that's been created in Canada's public health system because of the outrageous privileges afforded to doctors in their engagement by hospitals under the Public Hospitals Act (my judgment, not hers) - a situation that was only allowed to occur because of the historical baggage associated with doctors' self governing status and privileged position.
That that situation continues acts vastly to the benefit of doctors at the direct financial expense of the Canadian public. I see 100% why Pilots want the same pie, but no government in a million years will allow it.
You are all, quite simply, stark raving mad if you think it's going to happen.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
I remember that the College consulted industry before it consulted pilots. They had many of the companies listed that they consulted with. This was on their web page 3 or 4 years ago. If someone could find an archived web page I'd appreciate it.
This College has the appearance of a cash-grab retirement project for the founders. Ask yourself if this is really the knight in shining armor looking out for pilots. Be realistic. No one helps pilots, they would rather help aviation stakeholders. The founder saw the light and obtained an MBA to facilitate his own credibility in the aviation business world. As John McClane said, "do you need a slide rule to figure this out?"
If Canadian pilots let this College happen and if they let it go mandatory, we will be stuck paying for an invisible product. The College may as well be a forced religion with forced tithing.
If pilots want change, it has been there all along. It's within each of you. Pilots give too much of their power over to stakeholders. The college is in collaboration to ensure this continues.
There are alternatives to make conditions better for all pilots:
Stop flying in weather below minimums. Start writing up broken aircraft. Don't give away your dignity for type-time. Negotiate better salaries or walk away. Don't sign promissory notes. Demand proper training.
Write to your MPs. Demand that TC play the role that they're supposed to as the regulator and enforcer. Help limit the ability of stakeholders to sue TC for performing necessary enforcement action.
None of this costs you anything. Your aviation system is broken and YOU can fix it.
Interesting point & argument photo fly. I had not considered the Feds would look at it the same way as the situation you described. Without meaning to be too personal, what is it that you do for a living?
Stop flying in weather below minimums. Start writing up broken aircraft. Don't give away your dignity for type-time. Negotiate better salaries or walk away. Don't sign promissory notes. Demand proper training.
Write to your MPs. Demand that TC play the role that they're supposed to as the regulator and enforcer. Help limit the ability of stakeholders to sue TC for performing necessary enforcement action.
None of this costs you anything. Your aviation system is broken and YOU can fix it.
We have it in our power but will never do it. This is where the College steps in to MAKE it happen.
You misrepresent the information contained in the old website. The list of operators that you speak of was a list of companies where our first board members worked. There has never been any support in the form of cash or time off from these operators and there is varying degrees of understanding of the concept amongst them.
Our initial cash infusion to start operations was in the form of "in kind" donations from 5 pilot associations/ unions. In August of 2012, we were ready to voluntarily accept membership directly from pilots and we finished that month with 500 members. In the fall of 2013 we accepted nominations from those members to form the first elected board. Currently we have just over 1,400 member files with about 900 active members.
In the time from early 2009 we have shifted our focus. It is true that in the early days we did focus on Ottawa (TCCA, various industry trade associations, etc.) but we quickly realized that the true path forward would be to talk to pilots, educate them about the merits of the college and get them to voluntarily join. Our Ambassador team has been reasonably effective with that and will continue to get better at it. We do plan to reengage industry associations and government later this year.
As far as this being a cash grab, that is a very disappointing statement. We are all volunteers who are only reimbursed for direct expenses. We will be issuing our first annual report by the end of winter and finances will feature in the report. No one is lining their pockets. There is no secret agenda. We are simply trying to protect and promote our profession so that the future will be bright for those who are contemplating this as a career path.
Respectfully,
Tom Machum (yeah, MBA)
President CPPC
Wake up guys... Unity is the ONLY way things will improve. The status quo will lead us no place worth going. That, or a significant decrease in pilot supply.
