Canada Jetlines

[sstaurus]

I saw this guy being interviewed on TV, I think CBC, and Hanomansing(sp?) was practically laughing at him when he said he was going to offer $79 one way flights Vancouver to Edmonton. I don't remember the details but that was the gist of it anyway...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

$79 "one way", plus airport improvements fees, Nav Canada surcharges, fuel surcharges, security fees, and government taxes.

I believe it.

[GRK]

Yahoo.com has an article that might prove interesting here…(no link) but Southwest is getting out of the "small market" destination game as the returns are slim…wonder if the funds for Canada Jetlines might be harder to raise based on this news?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Isn't the Road To Hell littered with good intentions? I wish Canada Jetlines all the luck in the world, they'll need it. (been there done that, it's seriously hard work) Taxes and fees alone alone will kill the thing.
Question: Why are you guys comparing a US carrier (Spirit) as well as other US pay structures to any Canadian startup pay? No one has even mentioned a pay scale here and the nay sayers are crying "race to the bottom". Wait and see before you bitch about it.

Have you not seen the recent pay scale trend in this industry? Encore, Sky regional, Rouge.. I don't think Canada Jetlines pay will be anything to write home about. I'm thinking 40 grand for a 319 FO there... sweeeeeet.

They are paying Air Canada wages?

[boxcut]

Out of curiosity, is anything being done to change the 'industry standard'?

[delta1]

http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/blog/2011/ ... announced/

[YVR Dude]

With the seniority system in place in most airlines, high time jet captains who lost their jobs dues to the failure of the airline they were working for are often doomed to either finding work overseas or accepting a right seat at another airline at the bottom of the pay scale, often at one third of the salary they were earning in the job they lost (if not less). The only alternative to these two scenarios are start-ups such as Jetlines.
A new airline such as Jetlines will need experienced 320 captains and they will find them. I have heard from several such pilots who wanted to apply for the seasonal captain positions at Sunwing but were told that seasonal positions were for First Officers only. In reality, the Sunwing seasonal captain jobs are allocated in advance to foreign seasonal pilots. Canadians need not apply.

Wrong….They upgraded all the FO's (that qualified) to captain status…No DEC required…career growth from within…They then "backfilled" the remaining positions with the overseas, and contract guys.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Wrong….They upgraded all the FO's (that qualified) to captain status…No DEC required…career growth from within…They then "backfilled" the remaining positions with the overseas, and contract guys.

How am I wrong ? The fact remains that Sunwing accepts seasonal foreign Captains but not seasonal Canadian Captains, only First Officers.

What wrong with "backfilling" the remaining captain positions with Canadian captains ?

[ea306]

The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are on the Sunwing Pilot Seniority List and are upgraded in order of seniority with the rest of the Sunwing Pilots. The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are offered full time (year round employment) when demand allows for it. This was a change that was negotiated into our CBA by our union.

Our company have internally announced additional upgrades for the winter season 2014/15 and will start on the upgrade training for those awarded the Captain positions in the near future.

All Sunwing Pilots are offered Captain upgrades as needed by order of seniority subject to qualifications and successfully completing the training program.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are on the Sunwing Pilot Seniority List and are upgraded in order of seniority with the rest of the Sunwing Pilots. The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are offered full time (year round employment) when demand allows for it. This was a change that was negotiated into our CBA by our union.

Our company have internally announced additional upgrades for the winter season 2014/15 and will start on the upgrade training for those awarded the Captain positions in the near future.

All Sunwing Pilots are offered Captain upgrades as needed by order of seniority subject to qualifications and successfully completing the training program.

That is great. But that still does not explain why foreign seasonal captains are hired for the winter when Canadians pilots are told there are no seasonal captain position available. Why could a Canadian be allowed to NOT go on the seniority list and just be allowed to be a seasonal winter contract pilot, as the foreigners are ? Some pilots have written to me to tell me they would actually like that, but that is reserved for foreign contract pilots.

[zulutime]

I recall many years ago when Greyhound (bus) thought they could get into the airline industry by offering cheap fares. I flew them once on business from Toronto to Vancouver. They played games like "find the captain's wife, she is on this flight" or "roll the toilet paper down the aisle and see whose goes the farthest". Their food service consisted of an open tray of finger size sandwiches that the flight attendents handed out to the passengers with a napkin. In one way I guess they were ahead of their time since current A/C or WJ service isn't all that different. Not exactly sure how long they lasted but it wasn't very long. A/C and Canadian Airlines ate them alive. In today's market they will have A/C and WJ to contend with and neither of those firms want to give up a single seat to the competition. I may be wrong here but I think I heard that one of the executives for Canada Jetlines is from Southwest Airlines and they were thinking they could replicate their business plan. I don't see how this can happen in a small market like western Canada.

[ea306]

The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are on the Sunwing Pilot Seniority List and are upgraded in order of seniority with the rest of the Sunwing Pilots. The Seasonal Sunwing Pilots are offered full time (year round employment) when demand allows for it. This was a change that was negotiated into our CBA by our union.

Our company have internally announced additional upgrades for the winter season 2014/15 and will start on the upgrade training for those awarded the Captain positions in the near future.

All Sunwing Pilots are offered Captain upgrades as needed by order of seniority subject to qualifications and successfully completing the training program.

Why could a Canadian be allowed to NOT go on the seniority list and just be allowed to be a seasonal winter contract pilot, as the foreigners are ? Some pilots have written to me to tell me they would actually like that, but that is reserved for foreign contract pilots.

Our Union represents all Sunwing Pilots. Permanent and Seasonal. This was perceived by some as a potential union busting tactic to have union and non-union pilots hired. No one wants that...especially when we were negotiating a new contract last year.

So the only way for a Canadian to get to the left seat at Sunwing is to wait for his turn by seniority. This is why a Seasonal Sunwing Pilot is on the seniority list.

Also if there are more non Sunwing captains than first officers contracted from out of country... Then our affected First Officers would get bypass pay. It is the intent to upgrade as many of our own pilots as possible.

The only way a Seasonal Pilot could potentially become a Captain is if there are no other more senior First Officers qualified to upgrade.

Anyway... Although this thread is about something else.....
I thought I would share those details with you seeing as you asked the question.

[midwingcrisis]

A lot of neediness at the top already for this ULCC start up never mind LCC.

http://skiesmag.com/news/article/21060# ... 1288547308

[Told Card Writer]

I would have a backup plan. Get the type rating, get a hundred or so hours. Have some money on hand to pay the remaining bond and leave if you have to. Not ideal by any means but there is work over seas with a type rating and time on type. Very few other options when things go down the crapper fast. Nothing worse than trying to call up crew sched to check-in for your next weeks schedule only to get "this number has been discounted", that would be worse. Only other thing worse is being at the gate with all the passengers when it gets shut down, like that never happened.

[ScudRunner]

I recall many years ago when Greyhound (bus) thought they could get into the airline industry by offering cheap fares. I flew them once on business from Toronto to Vancouver. They played games like "find the captain's wife, she is on this flight" or "roll the toilet paper down the aisle and see whose goes the farthest". Their food service consisted of an open tray of finger size sandwiches that the flight attendents handed out to the passengers with a napkin. In one way I guess they were ahead of their time since current A/C or WJ service isn't all that different. Not exactly sure how long they lasted but it wasn't very long. A/C and Canadian Airlines ate them alive. In today's market they will have A/C and WJ to contend with and neither of those firms want to give up a single seat to the competition. I may be wrong here but I think I heard that one of the executives for Canada Jetlines is from Southwest Airlines and they were thinking they could replicate their business plan. I don't see how this can happen in a small market like western Canada.

Greyhound operated for just over a year starting in 1996 and not just competed with AC and Canadian but remember WJ started flying in 1996 as well. That being said Westjet did not directly compete with Greyhound as when WJ started it was limited to YVR YYC YEG where as Greyhound connected YYZ YOW YHM to YVR YYC YEG through YWG as well some direct flights. They also subcontracted the flying to KFC on B727, I guess you could say Greyhound Airlines never really existed they just sold seats on aircraft operated by KFC.

From what I have read Greyhound was "profitable" in the summer months but overall bled money finally when Laidlaw acquired Greyhound Canada they where not interested in operating an Airline. The thinking was the bus and airline could feed passengers into each other never really planned out.

As for Canada Jetlines I really don't think they will get airborne, just to ad to the competition I have heard through the grapevine that Flair is going to operate a subcontracted run around western Canada in their 737. Rumour was a run YVR -YXT/YPR- YYC,
I had thought it may have been related to Canada Jetlines on some sort of wet lease but the name I was told was Hawkair.

[ahramin]

.. didn't Westjet start with YXX YYC YEG?

[ScudRunner]

.. didn't Westjet start with YXX YYC YEG?

I can't recall exactly, I knew it was one of there early routes but I thought it came after the initial YVR YYC YEG, they might have tried marketing YXX as "Vancouver" emulating other LCC?

Edit : well Wikipedia says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WestJet#19 ... st_flights

On February 29, 1996, the first WestJet flight (a Boeing 737-200) departed. Initially, the airline served Calgary, Edmonton, Kelowna, Vancouver, and Winnipeg with a fleet of three used Boeing 737-200 aircraft and 225 employees. By the end of that same year, the company had added Regina, Saskatoon, and Victoria to its network.

[brooks]

Do you really think there will be a need for 737's into YPR, and YXT for that matter...
The only thing going for Flair is Shell and Empress using them for oil charters.

Last I heard from a TC guy not shred of paperwork had been submitted to Pacific region for Canada Jetlines.

[leftoftrack]

YYC YLW YEG YWG YVR were the original WS destinations.

As for FLAIR their planes are paid for and they are the lowest paid flight crews operating the 737 in Western Canada. Hence they can do the work the cheapest while still being profitable

[ScudRunner]

Do you really think there will be a need for 737's into YPR, and YXT for that matter...
The only thing going for Flair is Shell and Empress using them for oil charters.

Last I heard from a TC guy not shred of paperwork had been submitted to Pacific region for Canada Jetlines.

I will remember this thread when Flair starts operating it, perhaps Northern Gateway has something to do with it,

[brooks]

Last I checked that didn't have snowball chance in hell of happening. Perhaps those gassy BC Liberal LNG dreams.

[FL020]

"As for FLAIR their planes are paid for and they are the lowest paid flight crews operating the 737 in Western Canada. Hence they can do the work the cheapest while still being profitable "

thumbs up! Good work People

[Stoptheworld]

Anyone seen if they have gotten the go-ahead from CTA. If I recall correctly, you can't do anything with transport before CTA gives its blessing

[ScudRunner]

Do you really think there will be a need for 737's into YPR, and YXT for that matter...
The only thing going for Flair is Shell and Empress using them for oil charters.

Last I heard from a TC guy not shred of paperwork had been submitted to Pacific region for Canada Jetlines.

Cough Cough um whats that Brooks???

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FLE402

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FLE4 ... /CYVR/CYXT

Anyway back to Canada Jetlines...............

[loopa]

FLAIR ... are the lowest paid flight crews operating the 737 in Western Canada. Hence they can do the work the cheapest while still being profitable

Are you sure? What sources are you relying on to say that?